Shot down over the Ukraine: MH17

[mirhond]

What you call "cut and thrust" is due to some defending the indefensible, such as excusing lifting credit cards off of dead bodies.

O, sancta simplicitas!
You forgot to note that I used the definition "zealous Christians", you added "Good" to the "Christians"
Anyway you can't prove that looters aren't Christians, and therefore can't be moved by religious motives when they took the bodies from the crash site. And even if they are all die-hard atheists, they nevertheless might be motivated by common practice to keep dead in morgues and give them a decent burial.
Don't forget another point - these guys kill and got killed at daily basis, dead passengers are just like other corpses to them, no privileges for civilians, something like that, may be.
Besides, if all that bull#### about hordes of FSB agents/cossacks roaming around is right, it only reinforce my assumption about religious motives - cossacks are MAD about their Orthodoxy, they can't leave dead to rot.
ps. I believe the ideas of secular and utilitarian ethics aren't new to you.
pps. and please, don't mix up "excusing", "explaining" and "explaining away"
ppps. If all this explanations are nonsence to you and you just want to get high moral ground - well, enjoy it.

[AmericanPride]

The more likely scenario is that given the lack of governance due to the conflict, the insurgent 'state' had no plans or institutions in place to manage an incident like that of a downed airliner and therefore no immediate security was provided to protect the scene of the crash from looters - an opportunism that exists in all cultures. From an objective point of view stripped of moralism, the incident, while saddening, does not appear on the face of it to be materially relevant to the outcome of the conflict since at the end of the day the insurgents still occupy the eastern provinces of the country and remain heavily armed. Oh - and the Ukrainian offensive is still active, so I do not see why the insurgents will decide to de-escalate in the face of escalation.

Will the West score some political points against the insurgents and against Moscow in the hopes of pressuring Russia to cease its material aid of the insurgency? Sure. But the political fallout of downed airliners in the Persian Gulf and Sinai did not change the course of those conflicts. It also shouldn't be forgotten that Russian media is in full gear blaming this incident on Ukraine, so I do not see how Putin's domestic incentives to cease support changes whatsoever.

[Biggus]

Why it wasn't driven South, as it does after 17.07?

Again, most likely weather.

Does it matter? It was an open airway. Both Russia and Ukraine had the power to close it down, and yet open it remained. One of those countries was providing assistance to a rebel group in establishing an extremely capable air defence system.

[OUTLAW 09]

Why it wasn't driven South, as it does after 17.07?


Actually I give you a source in Russian, if you understand what term "source" means.



Wow, two lines of unrestricted stream of consciousness, without any punctuation marks - it overwhelms my inferior English, but I do want the links you mentioned, I believe it will help me to get what you mean. Everything else in your post is irrelevant to the subject.



I said this. What I've said doesn't contradict to facts - looters may be good Christians, they loot corpses and then bury them according to the ritual.

wow---now we have a fourth person logging in under the mirhond--welcome comrade to a really poor defense of a slaughter that the previous mirhond was defending.

come on not a Russian expert and FSB member of the misinformation campaign mirhond

come on man you really are not trying to defend the "zealous criminals" who have been reported by your own ethnic Russians as being seen drunk, pillaging, looting and ignoring the recovery in an honorable fashion the bodies of 298 slaughtered civilians.

I use the term slaughtered because that is what the Russian "paid" mercenaries really did when they fired a military missile into a civilian aircraft, claimed then the shot down--- and then said what you guys posted was "someone else not us".

AND you really call them "Christians"---by the way you explicitly defended the recovery of the reported 38 bodies did you not?

BY the way they are not anywhere to be found in Donetsk where you "claimed" they were going to--SO comrade mirhond just where did those nice honest and zealous Christians take the bodies of 38 slaughtered civilians.

comrade mirhond---what is again that burial ritual you seem to think your drunken mercenaries are using----there have been no recovered remains turned over to the international team THAT somehow is being held back from the crash site by those same very drunken Russian paid mercenaries.

SO comrade mirhond---just what are those drunken mercenaries trying to hide my friend?

comrade mirhond you still have not answered just hwere are those flight recorders that your drunken mercenaries claimed to have recovered, claimed to have sent to Russia and THEN claimed they cannot find them.

comrade mirhond just what are those drunken mercenaries trying to hide---that they were the ones who shot down the airliner in a drunken mistake?

by the way the "other" mirhond used a jihadi term---now I will use another popular Iraqi term---you comrade mirhond have blood on your hands even as a "good" Christian.

[OUTLAW 09]

Firstly, why I have to do your job and provide a link
http://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/accidents...18072014222500

I believe that's because you don't know Russian, so you are unable to find the source by yourself.
Secondly, do you realise that dead bodies rot, especially under summer sun?
Thirdly, do you understand that separatists cant "stole" anything from territory under their control? They can "take" the rotting bodies which happened to be intact and bring it to the morgue in Donetzk. They are zealous Christians, at least, so I suppose they are driven by moral duty to take care of the bodies.

come on comrade no so Russian expert mirhond---

you four guys really amaze me---now explain that definition again of the term "stolen" you just used?

so are you saying that in fact when a Russian pickpocket on the subway in say Berlin "steals" or excuse me "steals" is not in the Russian language "takes" someone's smartphone that is OK if he "claims" the subway car to be what "Russian territory".

WHAT do you think if the dead could talk just what they would call it---my "zealous Christian"?

you guys at FSB really do think you "own" the world.

really have to copy your comment down for training purposes.

[OUTLAW 09]

open challenge to mirhond----


if my comrade friend you think that in fact the Ukrainians downed the aircraft---then ask nicely Putin if he will release all the recordings and data collected by a good Russian theater wide AD system on the day before the downing, and the day of the downing of the airliner---just as they have demanded from the Ukrainians yesterday. Especially since the Russian missile defense conducted a series of exercises recently that Putin attended did he not?

if there is no data on the Russian side then in fact they have a really really poor self defense AD system and all these arguments over the missile defense system pointed against them in Europe then have been what "fakes".

you can search Interfax from yesterday and find the Russian Defense Ministers statement if you want to rad the accurate statement to his demand.

NOW if in fact the Russian supplied to the world data does not reflect Russian involvement in the shot down then Putin is right in his statements.

but guess what comrade mirhond actually neither you nor Putin will ever release that data because it in fact proves Russian mercenary involvement.

so mirhond comrade friend just provide the data and it will end the debate you think you are having here.

[OUTLAW 09]

O, sancta simplicitas!
You forgot to note that I used the definition "zealous Christians", you added "Good" to the "Christians"
Anyway you can't prove that looters aren't Christians, and therefore can't be moved by religious motives when they took the bodies from the crash site. And even if they are all die-hard atheists, they nevertheless might be motivated by common practice to keep dead in morgues and give them a decent burial.
Don't forget another point - these guys kill and got killed at daily basis, dead passengers are just like other corpses to them, no privileges for civilians, something like that, may be.
Besides, if all that bull#### about hordes of FSB agents/cossacks roaming around is right, it only reinforce my assumption about religious motives - cossacks are MAD about their Orthodoxy, they can't leave dead to rot.
ps. I believe the ideas of secular and utilitarian ethics aren't new to you.
pps. and please, don't mix up "excusing", "explaining" and "explaining away"
ppps. If all this explanations are nonsence to you and you just want to get high moral ground - well, enjoy it.

my comrade non Russian expert mirhond---you were the one using the term "zealous Christians" to describe a bunch of drunken mercenaries.

now you my friend are pulling a zealous mercenary move by denying you ever used it just as they claimed the shot down and then claimed "it was not me".

so mirhond the drunken Cossacks still have moved the 38 bodies to Donetsk as they claimed here they would be doing---so where are the 38 bodies your Cossack friends "stole".

answer that and you have proven that you yourself are a "good" Christian .

you all have to get your stories right and stick to them.

[mirhond]

Again, most likely weather.

Does it matter? It was an open airway. Both Russia and Ukraine had the power to close it down, and yet open it remained. One of those countries was providing assistance to a rebel group in establishing an extremely capable air defence system.

If Ukraine didn't close airspace over combat zone, for what unbelievable reasons Russia must do the same? But I get your point, it's quite reasonable.

BY the way they are not anywhere to be found in Donetsk where you "claimed" they were going to

if my comrade friend you think that in fact the Ukrainians downed the aircraft---then ask nicely Putin if he will release all the recordings and data collected by a good Russian theater wide AD system on the day before the downing, and the day of the downing of the airliner

1. Links or **** (deleted by Moderator)
2. If you really new Russian you'd find what you request in no time, but as far as you just a liar - use Google translate, then.
http://itar-tass.com/proisshestviya/1327288
Besides, why do you bother? You can trust nothing from Russian media.

ps. you overuse term "drunken" - it's a bad sign

[kaur]

Just little reminder in case bigger picture will get blurred by smaller details.

1. In February Russia accomplised coup d'etat, occupied and later annexed Crimea.

2. In March Russia started the same process in Eastern Ukraine.

3. Head of DPR forces is FSB colonel Girkin.

4. Premier is from Russia, PR specialist Borodai.

5. Borodai's deputy is from Russia.

6. Cossacks who kidnapped OSCE observers are from Russia.

7. Separatists' ATGM-s are from Russia.

8. Separatists' MANPAD' are from Russia.

9. Separatists got MRL-s from Russia.

10. Separatists got tanks from Russia.

11. Separatists get volunteers from Russia.

12. Separatists get pemanent PR protection in international arena from Russia.

13. Separatists got BUK from Russia.

Before there is any further discussion of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, it’s important that one point be made absolutely clear: This plane crash is a result of the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine, an operation deliberately designed to create legal, political and military chaos. Without this chaos, a surface-to-air missile would not have been fired at a passenger plane.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...fc2_story.html

[OUTLAW 09]

If Ukraine didn't close airspace over combat zone, for what unbelievable reasons Russia must do the same? But I get your point, it's quite reasonable.





1. Links or **** (deleted by Moderator)
2. If you really new Russian you'd find what you request in no time, but as far as you just a liar - use Google translate, then.
http://itar-tass.com/proisshestviya/1327288
Besides, why do you bother? You can trust nothing from Russian media.

ps. you overuse term "drunken" - it's a bad sign

comrade not such a good Russian expert and FSB agent mirhond

glad you liked the over use of the term "drunken" in reference to the reported from Ukrainian villagers next to the crash site "drunken" mercenary looters. it was for emphasis which I am happy you caught.

by the way mirhond---noticed you did not deny the report that they were "over zealous drunken Christians"----wait maybe they were the Ukrainian Army troops looting after they "downed" the aircraft but wait was it not your own Russian mercenary leader of the DNR that "claimed" you all shot down the aircraft or was his boast just hot air as is yours mirhond?

by anyway happy to see you agreed with the drunken mercenary report.

at least you are trying to disengage your from "drunken over zealous Christian Cossacks"--it at least shows you can learn from SWJ---nice to see that.

[OUTLAW 09]

comrade mirhond---not even using the term Russian expert as you have disqualified yourself from the title by your constant mistakes in materials you provide.

by the way I noticed you did not deny the ongoing looting---and if your words are so correct I guess the 36 stolen bodies that were looted of their credit cards and Smart phones by "over zealous Russian Cossacks" that you yourself "claimed" they were taking to Donetsk did not make Donetsk since your own Russian news service RIA reported 196 bodies being sent to Donetsk---so since you have been so wrong over the last weeks---maybe you can finally admit your side is in fact losing this Russian war.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140720/1910...r-Donetsk.html

[OUTLAW 09]

comrade not so Russian expert mirhond---some Sunday suggested reading for you and I will let you search for the materials as they are easy to Google.

1. it seems you did not take me up on the abilities of Putin and the Russian government to release air defense data from the day before and the day of the downing of the civilian aircraft which your DNR commander even "claimed he had shot down" AND we both know Russia will refuse it why--because they supplied the missiles and the firing crew.

2. yes you in fact know the Russians have the data unless if their haste to destroy evidence of their being involved in the shot down by providing the weapons via a "civil society"

NOW for your homework----

1. Google the term ISR
2. then Google the term GMTI
3. Google US early warning radar abilities and early airborne sensors ---then Google AWACs capacities

For a little assistance in your reading and so you can understand the English---do not for a single minute in your read ever doubt and for a single second any and all ground vehicles can be easily identified and tracked for hundred or miles from sysems hundreds of miles away.

Ask the Iraqi and AFG jihadi's just how good that racking capacity is these days so yes even a Buk is easy to define and track especially on the back of a white tractor trailer.

AND comrade mirhoind---just for a moment really really believe the world of tracking vehicles has gotten so much more effective and efficient in ways the Russians have yet to think about---helps when one is at war for 11 years to perfect that ability so we must also thank the johadi's for their assistance as well.

Airborne Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI) radar
has become an important asset for tactical surveillance of
mobile ground targets. Tactical intelligence needs
increasingly include requirements for detection and
tracking of mobile ground targets. US and coalition forces
now have available an increasing family of airborne GMTI
radar collectors.

And since you can Google with ease then really go back over the last 10 years of Iraq and AFG and read the articles written on the US capacity for GMTI.

NOW Google the capacity of the Patriots and the Iron Dome focusing on their radars signature recognition abilities and then look at the overhead abilities of the newer satellites to detect missile launches and conduct GMTI on the fly.

AFTER reading all of the above ASK yourself the following questions---do I mirhond believe that the US in fact has the pinpoint location of the missile launch---do I mirhond believe that in fact via GMTI the US identified and tracked the launch vehicle and do I mirhond believe that the US knew exactly when those vehicles crossed the border into Russian.

AND more importantly do I mirhond believe that it is possible the NSA has been recording every cell conversation since the Crimea.

so comrade mirhond just keep hanging onto that story that the "mean junta Ukrainians" shot down the aircraft.

you really do have to get a better story going---it is not being believed by the entire world.

[OUTLAW 09]

comrade mirhond---once you have finished your Sunday reading assignment now go this link and half way down you will see the photos of the "none existent" Russian mercenary Buks which in fact were geo located by normal bloggers. that were released by your own "drunken over zealous Christians" on their tweeter accounts and their Russian Facebook accounts---social media is hard to control you do realize right mirhind?

now that you fully understand GMTI---is it not interesting that both the Ukrainian military and the US government have those vehiclse date time stamped crossing into Russia---but wait the Russian border security was "enhanced" under Putin right mirhond? must have been that "civil society thing" controlling the border pass through not the renowned Russian Federal Border Security Services which works for the FSB right mirhond?

The date time stamps of the GMTI is of a variance of 2 minutes from both governments.

GMTI will get you every time especially if you under estimate the capacities of airborne and overhead ISR assets which evidently Russia does not have because they have no AD data to release right mirhond?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...7-july-19.html

[Biggus]

If Ukraine didn't close airspace over combat zone, for what unbelievable reasons Russia must do the same? But I get your point, it's quite reasonable.

I think that they both should have closed every segment of every airway over eastern Ukraine and part of western Russia on June 29. But, as I said:

One of those countries was providing assistance to a rebel group in establishing an extremely capable air defence system.

I would argue that greater moral culpability lies with those that were making an effort to give a group of disorganised thugs a strategic air defence capability, knowing that every day several dozen flights full of civilians traverse the airspace in question.

I note that nothing is being said as to the reason why Rostov issued NOTAM URRV V6158/14. (Relevant parts bolded.)

V6158/14 NOTAMN
Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04023E095
A) URRV
B) 1407170000
C) 1408312359 EST
E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN
FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY,
ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320.
DEP FM/ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO/FM MOSCOW FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG
ATS RTE G128 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) - MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) AND
R11 MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) - BUTRI ON ASSIGNED FL.
DEP FM ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG
ATS RTE A102 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) - NALEM ON FL340 AND ABOVE.
ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD FM DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG
ATS RTE A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB) THEN DCT KONSTANTINOVSK NDB
(KA) ON FL330 AND ABOVE.
F) SFC
G) FL530

This revised NOTAM might have a perfectly innocent explanation, but it's highly suspect in my view. Either a half-hearted attempt at deflecting attention from the presence of a Buk that had most likely shot down a Frogfoot at well under 26kft (as per the previously standing NOTAM), an attempt to clear some airspace for impending combat operations, or something else specifically combat-related happening in the area. Alternatively, someone on the Russian side has completed some sort of risk assessment with rough knowledge of where the Buk launch site(s) would be and calculated the maximum altitude a missile would reach if fired from that location into Russian airspace, ensuring that anything shot down would fall in a flaming heap onto Ukrainian territory. I am not yet ready to ascribe to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity, but it's something that has crossed my mind since plugging some of those air route segments into some flight planning software.

[OUTLAW 09]

I think that they both should have closed every segment of every airway over eastern Ukraine and part of western Russia on June 29. But, as I said:

I would argue that greater moral culpability lies with those that were making an effort to give a group of disorganised thugs a strategic air defence capability, knowing that every day several dozen flights full of civilians traverse the airspace in question.

I note that nothing is being said as to the reason why Rostov issued NOTAM URRV V6158/14. (Relevant parts bolded.)


This revised NOTAM might have a perfectly innocent explanation, but it's highly suspect in my view. Either a half-hearted attempt at deflecting attention from the presence of a Buk that had most likely shot down a Frogfoot at well under 26kft (as per the previously standing NOTAM), an attempt to clear some airspace for impending combat operations, or something else specifically combat-related happening in the area. Alternatively, someone on the Russian side has completed some sort of risk assessment with rough knowledge of where the Buk launch site(s) would be and calculated the maximum altitude a missile would reach if fired from that location into Russian airspace, ensuring that anything shot down would fall in a flaming heap onto Ukrainian territory. I am not yet ready to ascribe to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity, but it's something that has crossed my mind since plugging some of those air route segments into some flight planning software.

biggus---if you listen to the first SBU released voice interception the two terrorists talking one at the crash site and one in the rear the crash site terrorist was completely taken back that civilian aircraft were flying over the Ukraine.

There is a couple of comments out there that indicated the Rostov ATC was going to close down the air space for unnamed reasons on the 17th which did not happen for some reason.

Is it just possible that the terrorists knew of the alleged Russian air space closures in advance as they were aiming strictly for military aircraft and the closure would have made it easier for the missile gunner to just shot at anything that flew above him.

Based on the Russian spoken he was truly surprised by the overflight of a civilian aircraft and it appears he assumed all aircraft to be military in nature.

Then if you look at the condolence speech Putin held at one of his government meetings and published by RIA and referenced also by Interfax---Putin described the plane not as crashing from yet to be determined reasons---he refers to the aircraft as "being killed" which in the Russian military speak means the aircraft was struck by a missile and destroyed---this statement was well in advance then of anything coming out of Russia saying the Ukrainians fired a missile.

Putin had attended a series of recent missile AD exercises so he fully understood the term "aircraft was killed" just as any American being in a Patriot TOC would understand the term Putin used.

[OUTLAW 09]

comrade mirhond--you have often here tried to tell us Russia is not involved inside eastern Ukraine---now explain in these SBU released voice intercepts just why Moscow is telling someone in the DNR they need to get there hands on the black boxes and to collect all evidence and keep it away from "other parties".

mirhond my comrade does that sound like the Putin comment that the international community must make a thorough investigation of the air crash when his Russian mercenaries under his control are trying to eliminate critical evidence and control who gets the black boxes which they first claimed they had, then did not have and now have---come on mirhond you are beating a dead horse my friend.

or better yet who called from Moscow mirhond"

come on mirhond finally admit it ---you guys slaughtered 298 people among them 80 children because you simply downed the wrong plane then you looted their bodies for cash, credit cards and Smart phone---does that sound like the work of "good Christians" my friend?.

really would like the NSA to finally release their copies of these voice intercepts.

the US has been accepting the SBU intercepts as valid and authentic

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ssu-356979.html

Militant groups of self-proclaimed Donbas People's Republic might already be in possession of at least two Malaysia Airlines Boeing's flight recorders and are keen to get ahold of all the evidence from its crash site, citing "interest" from Moscow. The conversation shows that the separatists are intent on obstructing an international investigation under way.

The alleged intercepted phone conversations are between Oleksandr Khodakovskyi, commander of the Kremlin-backed separatists' Vostok Battalion and two militants identified only by their first names. The conversations show that the militants working at the site of deadly air crash of Malaysia Airlines Fight MH17 are given a task of getting ahold of all the evidence they can locate and keeping it away from anyone else. The ill-fated flight from Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur flight on July 17 crashed after a missile struck it from separatist-held territory, killing almost 300 civilians

At one point during the conversation, Khodakovskiy points out that two "black boxes" have already been obtained by a militant nicknamed Khmuryi, identified in the conversation as the head of intelligence of Igor Girkin (Strelkov), DNR's military commander.

The preliminary results of investigations conducted by both U.S. and Ukrainian authorities show that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing was shot by a surface to air missile fired from the territory controlled by Russian-backed sepaparatists.

The primary focus is on "black boxes," Khodakovskyi instructs a militant named Andriy during the alleged phone conversation, but the rest of the evidence is no less important.

"All that you find must not come into someone else's hands," he said.

[mirhond]

I think that they both should have closed every segment of every airway over eastern Ukraine and part of western Russia on June 29. But, as I said:

I would argue that greater moral culpability lies with those that were making an effort to give a group of disorganised thugs a strategic air defence capability, knowing that every day several dozen flights full of civilians traverse the airspace in question.

This revised NOTAM might have a perfectly innocent explanation, but it's highly suspect in my view. Either a half-hearted attempt at deflecting attention from the presence of a Buk that had most likely shot down a Frogfoot at well under 26kft (as per the previously standing NOTAM), an attempt to clear some airspace for impending combat operations, or something else specifically combat-related happening in the area. Alternatively, someone on the Russian side has completed some sort of risk assessment with rough knowledge of where the Buk launch site(s) would be and calculated the maximum altitude a missile would reach if fired from that location into Russian airspace, ensuring that anything shot down would fall in a flaming heap onto Ukrainian territory. I am not yet ready to ascribe to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity, but it's something that has crossed my mind since plugging some of those air route segments into some flight planning software.

1. Then tell me how the "group of disorganised thugs" which numbers is about several thousand of lightly armed militia managed to resist few dosens of thousands of regulars with bells and whistles for a months. You would argue that in "Ukraine" thead, if you please.

2. Sorry, NOTAMs is China to me, even with your explanation. You assume that Russia has a priopri knowledge that something nasty will happen in Ukrainian airspace, provided that separatists surely got the Buks?


Outlaw. now I completely understand why you are lost cause to reason and common sence

1. you have very short memory and you don't understand probabilistic statements

comrade mirhond--you have often here tried to tell us Russia is not involved inside eastern Ukraine

while I admit the presence of Russian volunteers in South-East

I don't read minds, but I give 80% probability that Putin will admit presence of Russian volunteers when the whole mess will be over, one way or other.

2. you are unfamiliar with causation and timing

they were taking to Donetsk did not make Donetsk since your own Russian news service RIA reported 196 bodies being sent to Donetsk

Before train arrives to Donetsk it has to depart and make its way.

3. You almost never provide relevant link

[Biggus]

biggus---if you listen to the first SBU released voice interception the two terrorists talking one at the crash site and one in the rear the crash site terrorist was completely taken back that civilian aircraft were flying over the Ukraine.

There is a couple of comments out there that indicated the Rostov ATC was going to close down the air space for unnamed reasons on the 17th which did not happen for some reason.

Is it just possible that the terrorists knew of the alleged Russian air space closures in advance as they were aiming strictly for military aircraft and the closure would have made it easier for the missile gunner to just shot at anything that flew above him.

Based on the Russian spoken he was truly surprised by the overflight of a civilian aircraft and it appears he assumed all aircraft to be military in nature.

This is entirely possible. The only things that would stand out to me are that a) it's Ukrainian airspace, not Russian, and b) something like 200 civillian aircraft had flown over the Donetsk region in the month prior.

These points obviously don't preclude the scenario you've provided from playing out.

[Biggus]

1. Then tell me how the "group of disorganised thugs" which numbers is about several thousand of lightly armed militia managed to resist few dosens of thousands or regulars with bells and whistles for a months. You would argue that in ""Ukraine" thead, if you please.

My interest is mostly in this particular event. If they're an organised group of thugs, then I retract my assertion as to their ability to maintain a cohesive command structure. But given the treatment the OSCE inspectors were subject to, I will stand by the choice of the word 'thug'.

2. Sorry, NOTAMs is China to me, even with your explanation. You assume that Russia has a priopri knowledge that something nasty will happen in Ukrainian airspace, provided that separatists surely got the Buks?

It's not an assumption, I'm merely raising the possibility. The prior NOTAM with altitude and route restrictions was issued in April, I believe. Then fourteen hours before MH17 was shot down, a new NOTAM with a new altitude restriction. Somewhat coincidental?

Another possibility is that Russian electronic warfare assets detected a radar emission from a rebel-held TELAR, did a similar calculation to the one I mentioned in regards to the maximum altitude a missile could attain from the edge of Russian airspace, and revised the NOTAM accordingly, without telling anyone else why they'd done it.

[mirhond]

Another possibility is that Russian electronic warfare assets detected a radar emission from a rebel-held TELAR, did a similar calculation to the one I mentioned in regards to the maximum altitude a missile could attain from the edge of Russian airspace, and revised the NOTAM accordingly, without telling anyone else why they'd done it.

Got it. Or may be it was actual Ukrainian TELAR or entire Buk system, as Russian DoD claims?