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Thread: Gaza, Israel & Rockets (merged thread)

  1. #81
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Back to history: the role of the British

    Shashank Joshi has a succinct column on a local UK politcal spat, but provides a short overview of policy on a Jewish homeland. He starts with:
    When the Ottoman Empire crumbled during the First World War, Palestine – already home to 94,000 Jews – was handed to Britain. As early as November 1914, long before Allenby rode into Jerusalem, the future high commissioner, Herbert Samuel, had suggested creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The idea was dismissed, but British policymakers soon warmed to it: they saw it as a way to persuade Russian Jews to keep St Petersburg in the war after the Bolshevik Revolution, to persuade American Jews to push US President Woodrow Wilson into supporting Britain’s occupation of Palestine, and to avert what they feared would be a pro-Zionist declaration from Germany. The result was the famous Balfour Declaration of November 1917, promising the coveted Jewish homeland.
    Link:http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/sh...p-with-israel/
    davidbfpo

  2. #82
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    Default This is getting interesting...

    This goes back a while but is now needed around here to balance the furious propaganda being posted:

    WHO ARE THE PALESTINIANS?
    By Yashiko Sagamori.
    November 25, 2002

    A rebuttal:

    If you are so sure that “Palestine, the country, goes back through most of recorded history”, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of “Palestine”
    See here:

  3. #83
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    JMA,

    You need to really find some actual serious sources (she calls the Palestinian people collectively a "terrorist organization"). And in basic theory, there's a difference between 'country' and 'people'. Her "argument" is basically that: "Arabs have plenty of land, so it shouldn't be a problem if some is given to Jews".

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Biased Webpage Cited by JMA
    If the people you mistakenly call “Palestinians” are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over – or thrown out of – the Arab world...
    Well - there's a logical problem with that line of argument. If Arab land is to be considered to belong to "generic Arabs", the region in question (Israel, Palestine) has been governed by Arabs far longer than any other group. She acknowledges that the land was won by Jews in war - from Arabs, who had occupied the land previously, which would make it a crime against peace by war of aggression.

    Going down these rabbit holes based on history misinformed by hate (really, all Palestinians are terrorists?) never turns out well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Citation from the same terrible blog
    Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side, should pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited upon it.
    Based on the rule of 'might makes right', what happens when the Arabs refuse or Israel loses the next war?
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

  4. #84
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    Before you get all excited go back and read what I said... and that was to post that to balance the propaganda from the other extreme. See, you wasted your time trying to dig the dirt to throw at me. You will learn as you get older.

    But, then as I have learned of you is that you do this when you can't respond to the substance. She asked a number of questions... you have answers to them or are you creating a diversion?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    JMA,

    You need to really find some actual serious sources (she calls the Palestinian people collectively a "terrorist organization"). And in basic theory, there's a difference between 'country' and 'people'. Her "argument" is basically that: "Arabs have plenty of land, so it shouldn't be a problem if some is given to Jews".



    Well - there's a logical problem with that line of argument. If Arab land is to be considered to belong to "generic Arabs", the region in question (Israel, Palestine) has been governed by Arabs far longer than any other group. She acknowledges that the land was won by Jews in war - from Arabs, who had occupied the land previously, which would make it a crime against peace by war of aggression.

    Going down these rabbit holes based on history misinformed by hate (really, all Palestinians are terrorists?) never turns out well.



    Based on the rule of 'might makes right', what happens when the Arabs refuse or Israel loses the next war?
    Last edited by JMA; 08-08-2014 at 12:17 AM.

  5. #85
    Council Member CrowBat's Avatar
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    JMA,
    I can't but join AP's recommendation for you to soberly make difference between 'facts' and 'propaganda'.

    The article you posted is typical for those advocating 'might makes right' and that 'Palestine cannot belong to generic Arabs that are not from there' (indeed, some of characters in question are going as far as to compare Israeli deeds to Arabs with those of American settlers to native Indians, and argument that 'if Americans could do it, why should Israelis be prohibited from doing the same?').

    The problem is: if these 'generic Arabs' were indeed 'collected from elsewhere' - and this only after the start of Aliyah (Zionist settlement in the area) as usually babbled by such characters - then any one propagating this kind of nonsense should explain me the following writing by Asher Ginsberg from 1891:
    'We abroad are used to believing that Eretz Israel is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed, and that anyone who wishes to purchase land there may come and purchase as much as he desires. But in truth this is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains that are not fit to grow anything but fruit trees - and this is only after hard labour and great expense of clearing and reclamation - only these are not cultivated'.

    That's a report from a (at that time quite famous) Jewish author who visited the place in 1891. If you like - or prefer not to consider this report for a 'fact' - I can add citations from official British and French documents from around the same time. The essence of what all of say is, 'densely populated', 'no wasteland'; on the contrary, some cite 'flourishing economy', based on 'export of wheat, fruits' etc.

    Overall, such reports are making it a FACT that 'somebody' was already living there, in 'Palestine', when the British crafted it as a result of Sikes-Picot Agreement, and before Zionists began settling in this area. Unsurprisingly, when Max Nordau (one of Herzl's closest aides) learned that there were Arabs living in Palestine, he concluded:
    'I never realized this - we are committing an injustice'.

    In the light of all of this, it is unsurprising that nobody of all the characters that are so hard at trying to explain that 'Israelis/Jews/Zionists (pick your choice) creating Palestinians from Arabs collected from all over – or thrown out of – the Arab world', managed to provide similar reports and documentation.

    Conclusion: if you like, we can endlessly discuss 'what is Palestine' - or, better yet: 'when is Palestine' - but it is pointless to discuss about 'Palestinians were created by Israelis/Jews/Zionists', simply because that's no fact, but propaganda.

    Therefore, I am herewith joining AP's recommendation: find yourself credible, serious source to learn about the history of the country you support (and I criticise). If nothing else, take some of Prof Benny Morris' books: these are based on official Israeli documentation, and essentially say the same like all other authoritative sources (including those I mentioned above) - with sole difference being that Morris is advocating ethnic cleansing of Arabs/Palestinians out of Palestine-cum-Israel.

    **********

    BTW, AP, regarding:
    Quote Originally Posted by Another Citation from the same terrible blog
    Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side, should pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited upon it.
    It's nothing short of sarcasm for anybody to explain that a 'losing side should pay reparations'. Except for few famous cases (like Germany after WWI), there are few cases where anything of that kind has happened.

    Furthermore, considering that there is clear evidence (and that it is well-documented) that:
    - the 1948-1949 Arab-Israeli War was provoked by ethnic cleansing of Arabs from areas assigned to them by the UN, which began already in 1947 (see Morris) and not by 'invasion of five Arab states', as usually explained;

    - the 1956 Suez War was an unprovoked Israeli-British-French aggression

    - the June 1967 War was no 'preventive war' as usually explained (neither Egypt nor Syria had serious intention, and even less so had their militaries any kind of a plan for invasion of Israel), but a mere 'land grab' (see corresponding statements in interviews with Dayan, from 1979, censored and released to the public only in the 1990s), which in turn provoked the War of Attrition, 1968-1973, and the October 1973 Arab-Israeli War too

    - that the areas occupied by Israel in the course of these conflicts saw extensive looting and destruction of private property (foremost by the so-called '2nd echelon' of IDF troops), not to talk about summary executions, violations of human rights etc., while Israeli proper experienced next to no damage at all

    - that the Israeli invasions of Lebanon in 1976 and 1982 were launched under extremely dubious conditions and with an obviously fake explanation (see books by Ze'ev Shiff and few others)

    - that even the Israeli attack on the nuclear reactor in Iraq, in June 1981, was argumented with a lie (Saddam never 'threatened to nuke Israel'; this explanation by Begin was proven a lie by the specialists of the Congress Library in the weeks after that attack)

    ... well, I would say that if anybody demands any kind of 'war reparations' there, Israel has the least reason to do so.

  6. #86
    Council Member CrowBat's Avatar
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    BTW, it seems that no agreement was reached by the time the 72-cease-fire expired; Israel refused to stick to promises it provided in the cease-fire agreement from November 2012 and merely offered to extend the cease-fire. Palestinians found this inacceptable, despite all the possible pressure from Egypt.

    Correspondingly, since 08.00 hrs local time, Palestinians began shooting rockets at Israel (Israelis claim that first two were shoot at Eshkol already at 05.00 local time).

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrowBat View Post
    Correspondingly, since 08.00 hrs local time, Palestinians began shooting rockets at Israel (Israelis claim that first two were shoot at Eshkol already at 05.00 local time).
    Aimed at military targets or any random civilian target in the area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrowBat View Post
    JMA,
    I can't but join AP's recommendation for you to soberly make difference between 'facts' and 'propaganda'.
    You seem to find that difficult as well.

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    Default I kid you not...

    Jimmy Carter shows his true colours:

    Ending this war in Gaza begins with recognizing Hamas as a legitimate political actor.
    How to Fix It

    You see... terrorism pays!

  10. #90
    Council Member CrowBat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Aimed at military targets or any random civilian target in the area?
    That's unclear. Though, two things appear likely:

    - Given at least one IDF soldier was injured by rocket or mortar fire that hit S'dot Negev today, it is perfectly possible that at least some of fire is directed at military targets.

    - Hamas is not involved in this round of firing rockets. That's why today only areas within 40 kilometres from cease-fire lines to the Gaza Strip have been hit.

    Well, who knows: perhaps somebody in Israel might eventually learn to distinguish between the Hamas, PIJ, PRC, DI, HE etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by JMA
    You see... terrorism pays!
    Israel is the best example that it does.

    Why do you seem surprised others have learned from that example?

  11. #91
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Hamas policy on media relations, albeit from an Israeli source:http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/20699
    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrowBat View Post
    Israel is the best example that it does.

    Why do you seem surprised others have learned from that example?
    This would justify Hamas' use of terrorism?

  13. #93
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    This would justify Hamas' use of terrorism?
    Justify, no... their use of terrorism cannot be justified, any more than the Zionist use of terrorism can be justified. Knowing the history does help to understand what cannot be justified.

    I personally think that the Palestinian use of terror has been not only unjustified but strategically disastrous: it certainly hasn't worked for them. If they'd found a Gandhi instead of an Arafat they might have done better.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

  14. #94
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Opinion poll on British attitude towards Iraq intervention

    A reminder of the "home front" viewpoint, useful as several ex-soldiers have advocated intervention.


    Richard Dannatt:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...e-in-Iraq.html

    Tim Collins and Michael Jackson reported in:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...m-Collins.html
    davidbfpo

  15. #95
    Council Member CrowBat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    This would justify Hamas' use of terrorism?
    You said 'terrorism pays'. I answered that there is no better example for this than that of Israel: it was created with help of terrorism (which, should you have missed learning about this, forced the British out of Palestina Mandate, in turn enabling the Zionists to create Israel).

    In what relation should that stand to 'justify Hamas' use of terrorism'?

    Though, should you insist on an answer: Hamas was created with help of Israeli intelligence services as a counterweight to the PLO.

    So, actually: why should it be a surprise it is using terrorism?

  16. #96
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Israel's security after Gaza

    A short commentary by Professor Paul Rogers, with a two sentence summary:
    Israel's military forces have embraced new tactics, weaponry and a network-centric strategy. But the latest conflict in Gaza leaves the country's security problems as intractable as ever.
    Link:https://www.opendemocracy.net/paul-r...ity-after-gaza

    Being a small nation might this have an impact, with my emphasis:
    The IDF losses have been far higher than in 2008-09, with sixty-four killed and 450 wounded, many of the latter maimed for life.
    davidbfpo

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