NATO: debating and defending Europe

[OUTLAW 09]

Then if the previous comments are correct then simply pull the remaining logistics, 12CAB, 173rd and 2ACR completely out of Europe and let the Europeans go it alone---so all the Americans, their families and children who are enjoying it here are what to pack up as well?

Try floating that question---meaning are you ready to go back completely and never serve a tour in Europe---to the troops.

Good luck with that one.

[TheCurmudgeon]

I would also like to point out that the instruments of national power are four, not one: D (diplomatic), I (information), M (military), and E (economic). We cannot maintain the force you are talking about without destroying our economy. You have a myopic view of how to influence others, which in this case, should be easy enough to see. It is the economic power that Russia holds over Western Europe via the sale of cheap Natural Gas that will keep Russia safe, not their tank divisions.

Right now as we speak Zimbabweans are learning Mandarin, not English. Any guess why? So while we put our national budget into defense in order to keep the shipping ways free for world trade, those involved in world trade (like the Chinese) take advantage of our funding. We are losing not because we have a weaker military, but because we have no real economic influence to wield in comparison to others like Russia or China.

You need to update your thinking

[Maeda Toshiie]

The Russians don't have 90 active full strength divisions to drive for the Atlantic coast. They don't even have 90 active full strength divisions. What they have are a lot of paper divisions to be filled up with reservists. Remember that the Russians have one heck of a long border. They may be friendly with the PRC, but that border isn't like the US-Canada border.

On top of that, just how up to date is the Russian equipment? Not very.

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By Article 5, all NATO members are required to respond to any armed attack to any member state. If the European members do not feel obliged to uphold the treaty, then there is a need to reassess the rationale of having NATO in the first place (or for the matter, any international treaty). It is one thing for members to strive to prevent any direct confrontation with Russia, it is another to not to live up to your treaty obligations.

[novelist]

The Russians don't have 90 active full strength divisions to drive for the Atlantic coast. They don't even have 90 active full strength divisions. What they have are a lot of paper divisions to be filled up with reservists. Remember that the Russians have one heck of a long border. They may be friendly with the PRC, but that border isn't like the US-Canada border.

On top of that, just how up to date is the Russian equipment? Not very.

----------------------------------------------------------

By Article 5, all NATO members are required to respond to any armed attack to any member state. If the European members do not feel obliged to uphold the treaty, then there is a need to reassess the rationale of having NATO in the first place (or for the matter, any international treaty). It is one thing for members to strive to prevent any direct confrontation with Russia, it is another to not to live up to your treaty obligations.

Paper divisions make me feel a little more at ease. And Russian reservists aren't as well trained as U.S. troops going through the NTC. I think the last Russian tank manufactured was the T-90. The problem I see is that they have more than we do, reservists or not.

I'm somewhat familiar with Article 5, and I don't discount what you've said about it. My worry is that the NATO allies might not uphold their obligation if Putin turns their gas off.

I put the following under a thread entitled "The Russian Military: Declining or Better...

I think you have to look at the former Red Army in the context of its organization prior to 1989. A Motor Rifle Regiment carried 5 battalions: There were two BTR equipped light motor rifle battalions, a BMP equipped heavy motor rifle battalion, a T-54/55 equipped tank battalion, and a Sp. 122mm howitzer battalion. In all, the regiment carried 27 companies/batteries, 70% of which were fire capable. The Motor Rifle Division carried 5 regiments: two light motor rifle regiments, (assault forces) a heavy motor rifle regiment, (exploitation force), a T-62/64 equipped tank regiment, (exploitation force) and an Sp. 152mm howitzer regiment. The division carried 58 battalions to include a T-72 equipped independent tank battalion. The motor rifle battalion of the exploitation forces carried a Battalion HQ, three motor rifle squads for HQ security, three (3) motor rifle companies, an 82mm mortar battery, and a technical services company comprised of a repair platoon, a medical platoon, a transportation platoon, and a communications platoon. The assault force had the immediate task of breaching the enemy line. The battalion making the most progress received regimental arty support. A battalion not making good progress was left to its own devices. NCO' s were not allowed to carry maps, and could not call for arty or air support. If the platoon leader was killed in action, the senior NCO could not take command of the platoon. Having said all of this, I think you have to look at the current organizational structure of a motor rifle regiment and its current doctrinal TTP. You'd also have to look at leadership and whether or not platoon leaders, company commanders, etc. are now permitted to exercise initiative. This seems the only logical way to determine whether or not the Russian army of today is Declining or Better. The Russian army now has about 90 active divisions.

This is how I recall the former Red Army and, this is why I have cause for concern about the shape that U.S. 7th Army is in right now...

Thank you for your comments.

[novelist]

I would also like to point out that the instruments of national power are four, not one: D (diplomatic), I (information), M (military), and E (economic). We cannot maintain the force you are talking about without destroying our economy. You have a myopic view of how to influence others, which in this case, should be easy enough to see. It is the economic power that Russia holds over Western Europe via the sale of cheap Natural Gas that will keep Russia safe, not their tank divisions.

Right now as we speak Zimbabweans are learning Mandarin, not English. Any guess why? So while we put our national budget into defense in order to keep the shipping ways free for world trade, those involved in world trade (like the Chinese) take advantage of our funding. We are losing not because we have a weaker military, but because we have no real economic influence to wield in comparison to others like Russia or China.

You need to update your thinking

The fact that Zimbabweans are learning Mandarin is interesting. It is something of a testament to the rise of Communist Chinese economic and military power. But I think America's economic woes come from the facts that: (1) Colombia and North Korea have been counterfeiting U.S. curreny for many decades now; (2) We owe the ChiComs over a trillion dollars in foreign debt, and; (3) U.S. corporations taking their manufacturing abroad hurts the national GDP. These problems significantly contribute to the drawdown of the Armed Forces and adversely affects the National Defense. This carries over to U.S. 7th Army. That is my explanation on economic. As for "information," I see that in terms of National Intelligence. In terms of Diplomatic and Military, it was Carl Von Clausewitz who stated that "military force is an extension of political policy." My point is simply this... Our government is imposing economic sanctions on Russia yet, Putin continues to support Separatist aggression in the Ukraine. Do you think it illogical that the "policy of sanctions" would carry over to military confrontation with Russia if those sanctions do not deter Putin from his current course of action? This is why I made mention of the state of readiness of U.S. 7th Army and the number of Russian divisions.

Thank you for your input...

[WGEwald]

Then if the previous comments are correct then simply pull the remaining logistics, 12CAB, 173rd and 2ACR completely out of Europe and let the Europeans go it alone---so all the Americans, their families and children who are enjoying it here are what to pack up as well?

Try floating that question---meaning are you ready to go back completely and never serve a tour in Europe---to the troops.

Good luck with that one.

Did not not know DoD made assignments by polling the troops. In my day I got orders and went where the Army told me. Is that something from Obama's West Point speech, along with the mission of combatting global warming?

[novelist]

What preparations does DoD or U.S. 7th Army need to make for the potential eventuality of conflict with Russia???

[Maeda Toshiie]

What preparations does DoD or U.S. 7th Army need to make for the potential eventuality of conflict with Russia???

Back in 2010, there were leaks on the contingency plans for the defense of the Baltic states. Apparently 9 divisions are earmarked, including US, German, and Polish formations. I'm sure there are already plans for Poland, which should be regularly updated if the G3 branch isn't sleeping.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...e-guardian.htm

http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/4465...land-20104465/

[davidbfpo]

This thread was entitled Readiness of U.S. 7th Army, Germany and has been amended to the wider them in the posts to date - the European NATO conventional land combat force level and the US contribution. The new title is: Shrinking European NATO land combat levels and has been re-opened. Yes to enable the next post!

[davidbfpo]

Link:http://www.iiss.org/en/publications/military%20balance/issues/the-military-balance-2016

[AdamG]

Europe should build its own army and not rely on security guarantees from Washington, the European Commission president said following the election of Donald Trump. At the same time, Jean-Claude Juncker called for the preservation of the transatlantic partnership.

https://www.rt.com/news/366177-europ...urity-juncker/