Ukraine: military (Aug '14 to mid-June '15) closed

[OUTLAW 09]

Given this statement:



Why do you insist on pursuing strategies that will lead to Russia opting for further escalation instead of de-escalation? If "Russia cannot under Putin suffer a military defeat", do you think it's wise to force the issue? What are the consequences for European and international security if this Russian red-line is crossed? Since you argue that Russia is a second-rate, rogue, criminal, irrational nuclear state with a reckless nuclear strategy, why do you keep expecting rational behavior to be the result of your proposals? Or have you not thought that far ahead yet?

And you think Russia is acting "rational". Come on AP.

http://en.inforesist.org/nsdc-shelli...es-into-ruins/

[OUTLAW 09]

So AP Russia is again what acting "rational"?

Read the entire Ukrainian field reporting.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/1...gust-9-2014-2/

[OUTLAW 09]

So AP Russia is acting rational in claiming the IRC has together with Russia organized a humanitarian convoy--when the IRC was asked in Kiev---they had heard no plan had been approved by the IRC nor did they know of any plan for a Russian aid convoy.

AP ---does this sound like a "rational clear thinking Putin ie Russia"?

Remember what was said over on the Iraq thread---you look only at the big picture but fail to see the moving pieces---not good.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0GA0C620140811

Again AP work your way through the tweet traffic and you will notice a comment that Russian military vehicles that where green yesterday and now being painted white for a "humanitarian" operation"---also the comments if the Ukraine threatens to stop the Russia aid PR attempt that has not been cleared and or planned together with the IRC that Putin "claimed today they were planning together with" then the Russians will have their excuse to use military force to delivery the "humanitarian assistance".

So again AP you are being asked---is this the "rational" Russia that you claim is needed to be understood by the West so you can negotiate with it over exactly what AP?

https://twitter.com/hashtag/Russia?src=hash

And again AP--does this sound like a Russia wanting to work within the international norm or outside the norm? Why the urgency to get an aid convoy over the border when all other parties stat there is no IRC combined Russian IRC plan---sound rational to you AP?

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140811/191...d-to-East.html

[AmericanPride]

Again AP--shifting gears out of the Iraq world that you knew nothing about to now the Ukraine where you are equally weak on.

And you think Russia is acting "rational". Come on AP.

http://en.inforesist.org/nsdc-shelli...es-into-ruins/

Putin could drive a tank corps through the holes in your logic. On the one hand, you claim that Russia is a criminal, rogue, irrational state (armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons) and hell-bent on building a New Russia - and then on the other, you claim that escalation economic sanctions leading to the fiscal ruin of Russia will produce rational, favorable outcomes in Russian behavior.

Feel free to close that gap at any time.

[davidbfpo]

Three threads are closed to enable people to cool down and to enable a review. This one thread. I will endeavour to open the thread tomorrow.

[davidbfpo]

I have deleted three posts and edited slightly four posts.

[davidbfpo]

SWC has clearly set terms of reference and rules of engagement, which are all set out at:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/faq.php

SWC respects the right of members to post using psuedonyms. members are not required to provide an introduction on joining, nor are 'credentials' required. We are a "broad church" of experience, interests and standpoints. We are not a political board, although politics is ever present.

On a number of issues, in the past and today, members engagement changes and lurches into sniping or personal attacks. Members often contact a Moderator when concerned, a few post their dismay. It maybe appopriate for a Moderator to then take action.

SWC is open for non-members (with a few exceptions) to read and has an excellent reputation for its content. Sometimes the wrong word(s) can damage SWC.

[davidbfpo]

Within this blog are a number of interesting items, in particular - from my "armchair" - is the reported movement into Belarus of Russian troops to a position north of Kiev:http://www.interpretermag.com/ukrain...v-border/#3748

[Nyxilis]

Ukraine said they wanted it coming through on a border they controlled for this 'humanitarian aid' shipment Russia has been talking about. So much bad information surrounding it on who's supposedly in control, where it's going, and yadda yadda.

Wonder if this is it, and if it is just an aide convoy. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be just food, medicine and the like. It would still be a public relations boost for Russia. Getting to play it up as hey, look we told the truth, helped these russians in the east, and of course plaster more real pictures of the conditions there.

Especially if it lets him start trying to send more... because the more he gets to send i have to wonder the next time how much of it would be kosher? It gives them the opportunity such things and I think the Ukrainians finally allowed one to come in because if they didn't it gave Russia more of an excuse to take a peacekeeping initiative.

[JMA]

Your second sentence is the weakest element of SWC.

Secondly I doubt if anyone is against the rules of engagement around here but it is the abysmal quality of the moderation with repeated examples of bias that degrades SWC.

As to posts that you see fit to edit. It should be the norm for the 'editor' to idicate that the post has been edited and why. This Soviet style censorship in unacceptable IMHO.

SWC has clearly set terms of reference and rules of engagement, which are all set out at:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/faq.php

SWC respects the right of members to post using psuedonyms. members are not required to provide an introduction on joining, nor are 'credentials' required. We are a "broad church" of experience, interests and standpoints. We are not a political board, although politics is ever present.

On a number of issues, in the past and today, members engagement changes and lurches into sniping or personal attacks. Members often contact a Moderator when concerned, a few post their dismay. It maybe appopriate for a Moderator to then take action.

SWC is open for non-members (with a few exceptions) to read and has an excellent reputation for its content. Sometimes the wrong word(s) can damage SWC.

[Bill Moore]

JMA

Out of respect for allowing discourse where commenters could and should criticize or support other's ideas the mods (myself included) have been reluctant to crackdown on individuals. However, over the past two or more months SWJ discussions have too often degenerated into little more than personal attacks with no substance.

As a mode I'm going to start deleting posts that are little more than personal attacks. Explanation will be that is a personal attack and it isn't authorized, regardless of who posts it.

I will also delete posts that challenges to others experiences, such as how many languages you speak, or have you lived overseas, or do you have combat experience. We had a wide range of members with combat experience, students, academics, citizens interested in national defense, etc. They are all welcome to post and share their ideas.

That doesn't mean thin skinned people will be like engaging in the SWJ council, because their ideas will certainly be challenged and often bluntly. That is a lot different than attacking the individual.

If personal attacks continue, we'll ban that individual for the greater good.

[OUTLAW 09]

Putin could drive a tank corps through the holes in your logic. On the one hand, you claim that Russia is a criminal, rogue, irrational state (armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons) and hell-bent on building a New Russia - and then on the other, you claim that escalation economic sanctions leading to the fiscal ruin of Russia will produce rational, favorable outcomes in Russian behavior.

Feel free to close that gap at any time.

AP---regardless of how you spin it--you do realize Russia is in an undeclared war with the Ukraine fought with Russian troops and irregulars using UW in support to it's political warfare to the tune of 15K fighters --the figure given by the irregulars themselves who are receiving MRL/artillery strike support almost daily by the Russian Army firing into the Ukraine and Russia is actively sending in heavy weapons.

So again you do know what an undeclared war is and the same for political warfare and you know as well the new Russian UW military doctrine-with all eight steps of which we are seeing currently the first four steps in play-right?

You plead for negotiations and do not want a war---negotiations over what and if you think the sanctions will not work as you seem to state --so again AP what is left for you to suggest as solutions.

Sell apples on the street and use the money to purchase back the Crimea and eastern Ukraine?

Come on AP you have got to have better solutions--especially since the article you referenced is really a disguised lanced Russian land for land proposal and this is what the "success" of negotiations --ask the Ukrainians if they think it will work?

Again you do know what an undeclared war is right?

[OUTLAW 09]

IMO this thread is a waste of time as it is spinning around in a circle.

In some aspects this was foreseen by JMA when the proposals to expand the topics was made.

It is difficult often to keep track on multiple threads on the same topic/sub topics as actually many comments bleed into others so one loses easily the oversight.

Actually the events in the Ukraine are running it's course anyway until the dust settles by winter.

[OUTLAW 09]

AP---here is an excellent example of what I have been calling Putin's/Russian altered state of reality.

It is amazingly dangerous when leaders of a country who are driving an information war start to believe their own propaganda--that is what I would all an altered state of reality.

Then couple that with the concept of cognitive dissonance and you have now an "irrational" country and AP all the negotiations in the world will not bring them out of that altered state of reality.

There have been countless false flag shelling of the last two towns controlled by the mercenaries in order to give Putin cover for his "humanitarian aid". They claim there is no food and water--and yet photos in social media depicts something other than no food and water.

AP really read the near hysteria of the Russian FM concerning the "humanitarian disaster" he is claiming exists. Look at his accusations against the position of the West--near hysteria--not good for a nuclear power in an altered state of reality.

So AP just how does one negotiate with an altered state of reality called Putin?

http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?pg=2&id=527696