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    Quote Originally Posted by Shchors View Post
    Sorry for not replying sooner, but life gets in the way. The situation in East Ukraine has still not resolved to the point that I am able to determine whether the sudden maneuver by the Ukrainian mechanized group that attacked cross-country on July 27 between the key cross-roads town of Debaltseve in the north towards Shakhtarsk in the south has had its intended impact. By the morning hours of July 28th the separatists were able to pry open the east-west roadway in Shakhtarsk and to push back the Ukrainians to both the southern as well as the northern outskirts of the town. Ukrainian losses in armored vehicles due to fighting in urban terrain against short range anti-tank weapons appear to have been fairly heavy. However, Russian claims to have destroyed upwards to 125 vehicles are unconfirmed. Photographic evidence shows a few burnt out BTRs and BMPs. If claims of a modern day Prokhorovka (WWII Battle of Kursk encounter) are to be true, then one would expect video of a field of destroyed tanks by now, but none have appeared in the internet. Even if the Russians have reopened the road towards Luhansk, the road link to the city of Donetsk through Shakhtarsk is tenuous at best; the Ukrainians have the ability to interdict much of the traffic with artillery. Based on accounts by separatist eyewitnesses, a portion of the Ukrainian armored column bisected the east-west road on July 27th and raced southeast to attack Saur-Mohyla mountain from the north; that is from behind of the defenses facing Ukrainian forces to the south (which are currently trapped along the Russian border). However, many armored vehicles were disabled by dense minefields as the Ukrainians attacked up the reverse slope of the mountain. Then the Russians hit them with artillery. Enough infantry dismounted to reach the top in order to seize the mountain, or at least a portion of it. For the last three days, both sides claim to control Saur-Mohyla and concede that the opposite side is fighting very hard to recapture it. According to Ukrainian reports, the separatists are supported by heavy arty and rocket fire from across the border, no more than 8 kilometers to the south. Fresh Ukrainian airborne troops from the 95th brigade and tank support from a company of tanks from the 30th mech brigade are fighting but partially surrounded at Stepanivka, just east of Saur-Mohyla. It seems that any attempt by one side to outflank the other results in a new encirclement. Reportedly, some but not all of the surrounded brigades along the Russian border have been resupplied and a few units have been rotated out and replaced by fresh troops. In an attempt to maintain the initiative, the Ukrainians started a limited offensive to block the same east-west road to Donetsk at Khartsysk, west of their recent breakthrough towards Shakhtarsk and closer to Donetsk. They made some headway (up to Ilyowsk) but are still some 5 kilometers south of the road. Not to be outdone, the separatists have sent long range raiding parties to attack north-east of Debaltseve, to threaten the line of communications of the armored group that attacked recently towards Shakhtarsk. This is a whirlwind campaign where the Ukrainians constantly seek open country for maneuver while the Russians react by forcing the Ukes into positional warfare, preferably in urban terrain. As stated by me previously, all depends on whether the Russians can maintain the rate of reinforcement and resupply over the border near Luhansk (actually towards Krasnodon). One last comment about Outlaw 09's snippet regarding Lt. General Victor Muzhenko, Ukr. Chief of the General Staff, leading the armored maneuver group in a tank. This report is unconfirmed. In the first days of July, when the Ukrainians began this campaign to clear the Donbas, Muzhenko was not Chief of the General Staff. He was merely the commander of the East Ukrainian theater of operations. Reportedly, he led a battalion of the 79th airmobile brigade in an attack up Saur-Mohyla mountain, as a preliminary attack before the Ukrainians sent troops to seal off the border (these three brigades eventually were surrounded and had to dig in). The attack on July 1 to take Saur-Mohyla failed, despite Muzhenko's personal involvement. Perhaps the earlier incident is now mistakenly attributed to the maneuver on Shakhtarsk two days ago. Either way, Muzhenko is quite the "fighting general." The Ukrainians better hope he survives. Muzhenko may be the closest reincarnation of Heinz Guderian, George Patton and/or Ariel Sharon, anywhere today. Where would they be in this war without him?
    shchors---this is from Interfax today---now the statement is "many tanks"--that could be defined as say two, three or four as being many.

    07/31 12:50 DPR militia claims to have destroyed many Ukrainian tanks, still controlling Shakhtarsk

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    The UK Independent reported this morning of a secret Putin/Merkel peace plan for the Ukraine---"gas for land" ie the Crimea remains Russian with Russia paying billions for lost Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet rents and the Ukraine gets a long term lower gas price for their economy.

    Was also released this morning in the German der Spiegel online.

    Both the Independent and der Spiegel could get no responses from the Russians, Germans, and the British FMs on the article which is interesting as one would think that denials would be forth coming if not true.

    Plan would be hard for the US/UK to accept as they have gone on record as stating that the Crimea will always remain Ukrainian and there has been no response out of Kiev on the article.

    http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/...d_4028632.html

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    An interesting comment from one of Putin's trusted media commenters. what is really interesting is that over the last few days more and more comments pop up around the net from "Russian commenters" indicating that well maybe it was a mistaken identity of the aircraft by the irregulars that led to the downing thus if a mistake then they are not "terrorists". That messaging was even voice Monday by the Russian UN Ambassador.

    An interesting flip of the terms. Terrorists before but if a mistake then not terrorists?


    “Putin’s favorite journalist,” Andrey Kolesnikov from Kommersant is broadcasting a very interesting thing. He is broadcasting, and not expressing his own opinion, the text makes it obvious.

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/3...downed-boeing/


    It is not excluded that the Russian president, not trusting anyone fully, does not want to receive another information channel – counting on the “black box” decryption to be controlled by a big number of specialists from various countries, and that in reality this situations is not one in which the Brits may hide something or even intend to do so.

    And if in the end at some moment we do find out that the rebels have had something to do with it, it will radically change the attitude towards them. Even if it turns out that it was by pure accident…

    Children, adults too, and the elderly who have died for nothing are the red line he cannot cross, nonetheless. Covering for those who did it, knowing that they were the ones responsible… No, he will not burden his soul with such a sin. It is not worth it.

    But in order not to cross it, he has to now who did it. It seems he has received all the information he could have from his sources. Now he would like to get information from others. And of course, not SSU workers – everything is already crystal clear about them.

    If, I repeat, it turns out, the resistance fighters really did not know that the Boeing was taken down before the plane parts and bodies of the victims started raining down on them – then the policy of the relations with the fighters of the resistance will be reexamined forever.

    Yes, Vladimir Putin will refuse to work with them.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-31-2014 at 11:18 AM.

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    Default The power behind the story?

    Cited in part:
    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    The UK Independent reported this morning of a secret Putin/Merkel peace plan for the Ukraine---"gas for land" ie the Crimea remains Russian with Russia paying billions for lost Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet rents and the Ukraine gets a long term lower gas price for their economy.
    Link:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9638764.html

    Outlaw09,

    I find this story odd, first though this was a deal:
    However, these attempts by Ms Merkel to act as a broker between President Putin and the Ukraine’s President, Petro Poroshenko, were put on the back-burner following the shooting down of the MH17 plane in eastern Ukraine.
    Does the fact that The Independent is owned by Alexander Lebedev, a Russian oligarch in exile in London a factor? He also owns the London Evening Standard, which is a free evening paper.

    Wiki seems to think it is:
    The paper originally described itself as "free from party political bias, free from proprietorial influence"—a banner it carried on the front page of its daily edition. This banner was dropped in September 2011.
    Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Independent
    davidbfpo

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    Onlookers should see this as a test of ethical journalism for the editorial staff of The Independent and it 31 year old Editor.

    Newspaper staff seldom meet the standards they set for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    Cited in part:

    Link:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9638764.html

    Outlaw09,

    I find this story odd, first though this was a deal:

    Does the fact that The Independent is owned by Alexander Lebedev, a Russian oligarch in exile in London a factor? He also owns the London Evening Standard, which is a free evening paper.

    Wiki seems to think it is:

    Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Independent

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    Looks like the FSB/GRU really does have to teach young Russian soldiers to not use social media.

    Since it seems the FSB cannot do it---the Duma is now trying to stop social media posting by Russian soldiers.

    "A Communist Party deputy is reportedly preparing legislation that would ban soldiers from posting photos and videos on social networks that revealed military equipment or positions."----This alone confirms that all postings are in fact valid postings and geo locations.

    This Russian soldier uploaded photos of himself being in both Russia and the Ukraine and basically crossing back and forth----photos were geo tagged and indicated he was inside the Ukraine when he uploaded them.

    Claims to be a commo specialist in a APC but mentioned the Buk. So was he the comms dude for the Buk? The SBU did mention they had a voice intercept of a Russian inside the Buk.

    Article indicates that he took a beating from Russian commenters for his stupidity of uploading the information.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ls-border.html

    Second article referencing and expanding the first article.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/russi...ukraine-2014-7

    Another either active or former Russian soldier fighting in the Ukraine posts on social media.

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/3...ictims-online/
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-31-2014 at 05:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    Cited in part:

    Link:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9638764.html

    Outlaw09,

    I find this story odd, first though this was a deal:

    Does the fact that The Independent is owned by Alexander Lebedev, a Russian oligarch in exile in London a factor? He also owns the London Evening Standard, which is a free evening paper.

    Wiki seems to think it is:

    Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Independent
    David--second thought could be he was testing the waters since he is tied to the oligarchs and they are voicing although unnamed recently their critique of Putin driving Russia into isolation.

    Thirdly if that was the case then it was discussed.

    Surprisingly there has been virtually no further mention of it in der Spiegel which means the Germans are trying to let it die without comment---the same for die Zeit.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-31-2014 at 05:27 PM.

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    Seems like more Russian personnel and armored vehicles arrived into the Ukraine in the past few days---50 vehicle of mixed MRLs, APCs and artillery alone in this convoy.

    Video is part of the article.

    http://maidantranslations.com/2014/0...e-from-russia/

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    Outlaw,

    Also, if Russia is as you claim a rogue state with no concern or understanding of what's in it's own interests, how can you make the claim that punitive sanctions will compel the desired behavior in Russia?
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Instead of attempting to pick holes in everything Outlaw states why not offer your opinion on the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea and now the invasion of eastern Ukraine?


    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Outlaw,

    Also, if Russia is as you claim a rogue state with no concern or understanding of what's in it's own interests, how can you make the claim that punitive sanctions will compel the desired behavior in Russia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Instead of attempting to pick holes in everything Outlaw states why not offer your opinion on the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea and now the invasion of eastern Ukraine?
    Sure. I'll repeat my opinion:

    Under the Putin administration, Russia has emerged from the shadow of the collapse of the USSR. Since 1991, Russia has participated in ten conflicts with a 70% success rate. Russia still has many challenges but given the reference point of the chaos of the Yeltsin administration, today's Russia is much more capable and confident than it was 20 years ago.

    However - that's not the reference point for Russia's elite. The perceived height of Russia's status was in its previous incarnation as the USSR and that's what the current regime (an alliance of nationalists and realists, with some technocrats) is pursuing. Hence the risk-taking behavior (i.e. Georgia and Ukraine conflicts) to restore its former status. Sometime during the first Putin administration, the nationalists and realists finally made a break from the policies inherited from the liberals in the Yeltsin administration. Instead of democratizing Russia and transforming it into a West-phalian nation-state, they've reverted to restoring the imperial system of the USSR (and Empire).

    All of this is taking place within two contexts: the escalating confrontational characteristics of the U.S.-Russian dyadic, and the shifting of the balance of international power as U.S. entered its period of retrenchment. The confrontations between U.S. and Russia really started during the Clinton years but really came to the fore under Bush - at a time when Russia was also more confident in its own capabilities. That collapse in relations untethered Russia from the last of its committments to the U.S. and its integration into the Western community (capped by its membership in the WTO). The period of U.S. retrenchment also invited opportunitist states that preceive their relative power increasing relative to the U.S. - namely China and Russia. States are more risk adverse when pursuing gains instead of defending against losses, so more aggressive behavior is an indicator of a reduction of risk (i.e. U.S. deterrence). What signals has the U.S. given to Russia between 2001 and 2014? Color revolutions, invasion of Iraq, financial crisis, response to Georgia, Yanukovych affair, ABM treaty, missile defense, withdrawal of U.S. European forces -- all of these things are signals. What message(s) do they convey about U.S. capabilities and the stability of the international system? Namely that U.S. power is in relative decline and that the norms of the international system championed by the U.S. are optional. Since 2003, U.S. credibility has been significantly damaged as a result.

    The same problem exists in the U.S. What are American reference points, perceived and ascribed status? If perception exists of relative U.S. decline and Russian gain, that heightens the feeling of insecurity, even if there are worlds between U.S. and Russian capabilities.

    So now we come to Ukraine. Russia perceives itself with increased capabilities and confidence, but not sufficient status. It also perceives U.S. relative decline - hence the constant calls for a multi-centered international system. The U.S., in turn, is insecure given the outcomes of the War on Terrorism and the continued political infighting that has paralyzed effective government. That hasn't changed U.S. policies - the execution of the smart power campaign to topple Yanukoyvch and install pro-Western officials fits in the tradition U.S. playbook. But Russia called our bluff; the U.S. had no back up plan (military or otherwise) hence the desperate campaign to build a coalition around sanctions. The U.S. is still operating with the frame that it is a hegemon, but it is not - Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, et. al proves this. It doesn't mean the U.S. is not the strongest power, it just means U.S. power relative to other states or combination of states is not as strong as originally believed.

    Where does that leave us? Sanctions are a political response - (1) they require coordination and commitment from multiple parties, making them difficult to implement (where are China's sanctions on Russia?); (2) they rarely change state behavior, and (3) they are signals to U.S. allies and domestic polities that U.S. is committed to protecting its status (the commitment of which is compelled by framing the U.S. as a guarantor of European security in the first place). A military response is also ineffectual for reasons discussed above - what does a U.S. security commitment to Ukraine look like? That leaves diplomacy.

    This is really a question about the balance of power within the U.S.-Russian dyadic - is Russia now a peer competitor to the U.S. or not? And if it is, the secondary question is: what are the implications for the U.S. international security system?

    A strategy to address Russia must be constructed within this frame, and it must be honest about U.S. and Russian capabilities and limitations. Russia is acting the role of spoiler because the Russians are honest about their limitations - hence their 70% success rate in conflict. The Russians are confident in their capabilities but know they cannot compete directly with the U.S. - hence the participation in Iran, Syria, Ukaine, etc. Obstructing the U.S. strategy buys them time since the passage of time favors the gaining power and disfavors the declining power. Russia does not benefit for the status quo so it will actively work to change it. Spoiling is a strategy for a state that is strong enough to influence the outcome but not strong enough to dictate it.

    Recognizing Russia as a spoiler also implies that there are a range of strategies for dealing with spoilers in the international system. Mainly, that is either building a collective response or of integrating the spoiler into the international system. They are both difficult for their own reasons. Ukraine is a part of this process - it's not a conflict in isolation and its outcome will have consequences for the U.S. Russian dyadic and the international community. We should not rush to failure because our passion about Ukraine's liberty compels us to act immediately.

    How do we want to shape the international security environment? What kind of relationship do we want with Russia and why? What can be done to improve U.S. capabilities and credibility?
    Last edited by AmericanPride; 07-31-2014 at 08:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Sure. I'll repeat my opinion:

    Under the Putin administration, Russia has emerged from the shadow of the collapse of the USSR. Since 1991, Russia has participated in ten conflicts with a 70% success rate. Russia still has many challenges but given the reference point of the chaos of the Yeltsin administration, today's Russia is much more capable and confident than it was 20 years ago.

    However - that's not the reference point for Russia's elite. The perceived height of Russia's status was in its previous incarnation as the USSR and that's what the current regime (an alliance of nationalists and realists, with some technocrats) is pursuing. Hence the risk-taking behavior (i.e. Georgia and Ukraine conflicts) to restore its former status. Sometime during the first Putin administration, the nationalists and realists finally made a break from the policies inherited from the liberals in the Yeltsin administration. Instead of democratizing Russia and transforming it into a West-phalian nation-state, they've reverted to restoring the imperial system of the USSR (and Empire).

    All of this is taking place within two contexts: the escalating confrontational characteristics of the U.S.-Russian dyadic, and the shifting of the balance of international power as U.S. entered its period of retrenchment. The confrontations between U.S. and Russia really started during the Clinton years but really came to the fore under Bush - at a time when Russia was also more confident in its own capabilities. That collapse in relations untethered Russia from the last of its committments to the U.S. and its integration into the Western community (capped by its membership in the WTO). The period of U.S. retrenchment also invited opportunitist states that preceive their relative power increasing relative to the U.S. - namely China and Russia. States are more risk adverse when pursuing gains instead of defending against losses, so more aggressive behavior is an indicator of a reduction of risk (i.e. U.S. deterrence). What signals has the U.S. given to Russia between 2001 and 2014? Color revolutions, invasion of Iraq, financial crisis, response to Georgia, Yanukovych affair, ABM treaty, missile defense, withdrawal of U.S. European forces -- all of these things are signals. What message(s) do they convey about U.S. capabilities and the stability of the international system? Namely that U.S. power is in relative decline and that the norms of the international system championed by the U.S. are optional. Since 2003, U.S. credibility has been significantly damaged as a result.

    The same problem exists in the U.S. What are American reference points, perceived and ascribed status? If perception exists of relative U.S. decline and Russian gain, that heightens the feeling of insecurity, even if there are worlds between U.S. and Russian capabilities.

    So now we come to Ukraine. Russia perceives itself with increased capabilities and confidence, but not sufficient status. It also perceives U.S. relative decline - hence the constant calls for a multi-centered international system. The U.S., in turn, is insecure given the outcomes of the War on Terrorism and the continued political infighting that has paralyzed effective government. That hasn't changed U.S. policies - the execution of the smart power campaign to topple Yanukoyvch and install pro-Western officials fits in the tradition U.S. playbook. But Russia called our bluff; the U.S. had no back up plan (military or otherwise) hence the desperate campaign to build a coalition around sanctions. The U.S. is still operating with the frame that it is a hegemon, but it is not - Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, et. al proves this. It doesn't mean the U.S. is not the strongest power, it just means U.S. power relative to other states or combination of states is not as strong as originally believed.

    Where does that leave us? Sanctions are a political response - (1) they require coordination and commitment from multiple parties, making them difficult to implement (where are China's sanctions on Russia?); (2) they rarely change state behavior, and (3) they are signals to U.S. allies and domestic polities that U.S. is committed to protecting its status (the commitment of which is compelled by framing the U.S. as a guarantor of European security in the first place). A military response is also ineffectual for reasons discussed above - what does a U.S. security commitment to Ukraine look like? That leaves diplomacy.

    This is really a question about the balance of power within the U.S.-Russian dyadic - is Russia now a peer competitor to the U.S. or not? And if it is, the secondary question is: what are the implications for the U.S. international security system?

    A strategy to address Russia must be constructed within this frame, and it must be honest about U.S. and Russian capabilities and limitations. Russia is acting the role of spoiler because the Russians are honest about their limitations - hence their 70% success rate in conflict. The Russians are confident in their capabilities but know they cannot compete directly with the U.S. - hence the participation in Iran, Syria, Ukaine, etc. Obstructing the U.S. strategy buys them time since the passage of time favors the gaining power and disfavors the declining power. Russia does not benefit for the status quo so it will actively work to change it. Spoiling is a strategy for a state that is strong enough to influence the outcome but not strong enough to dictate it.

    Recognizing Russia as a spoiler also implies that there are a range of strategies for dealing with spoilers in the international system. Mainly, that is either building a collective response or of integrating the spoiler into the international system. They are both difficult for their own reasons. Ukraine is a part of this process - it's not a conflict in isolation and its outcome will have consequences for the U.S. Russian dyadic and the international community. We should not rush to failure because our passion about Ukraine's liberty compels us to act immediately.

    How do we want to shape the international security environment? What kind of relationship do we want with Russia and why? What can be done to improve U.S. capabilities and credibility?
    AP---out of all the above and it would take a book to respond---here is your ten word key statement and yet you failed to even answer it yourself.

    is Russia now a peer competitor to the U.S. or not?

    I will turn the ten words into a question-- is in fact Russia a peer competitor OR really a near peer competitor?

    I would argue currently it is a striving near peer as I believe as you do not that while Russia is a military power and a political power---the political power is not from their military strength but rather through their nuclear weapons. Russia has no economic power to enforce/project their military and nuclear political power.

    Currently they can only threaten their previous SU empire border countries and that is about it and yet when those countries were offered an alternative their ran in the direction of the EU/NATO not in the direction of Russia--wonder why?

    Example--- the threats yesterday about increasing gas prices--all bluff as Russia needs the money that the EU pays--not forcing the EU to shift and become more self sufficient--and that big Chinese deal---the Chinese are using the Russians as a cheap source of oil and gas as they do the African countries for other raw resources.

    Some argue that the US is in demise--but can it still project political, military and economic power anywhere in the world---yes it can. I would argue that while chasing UBL and jihadi's around the world they have via their counter threat finance group discovered in fact a fourth power---the power to monitor the flows of USDs and if needed apply legal power against those flows just as they are now applying it against Russian state owned businesses and banks. AP that is the ultimate power and they have learned very well how to use it--ask the Iranians, ask the European banks and the fines they are paying.

    So let's see in about 6-8 months if the Russia economy is that of an economic superpower.

    Russia is simply a developing country with two raw resources that is being used to finance a corrupt government, a corrupt ruling elite, and the oligarchs that have failed in providing an increased standard of living for the entire Russia population equal to the earnings coming from those resources since 1994.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-31-2014 at 09:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    AP---out of all the above and it would take a book to respond---here is your ten word key statement and yet you failed to even answer it yourself.
    Oh - the irony.

    I would argue currently it is a striving near peer as I believe as you do not that while Russia is a military power and a political power---the political power is not from their military strength but rather through their nuclear weapons.
    Nuclear weapons are a military asset; ergo, it's a component of military power.

    Russia has no economic power to enforce/project their military and nuclear political power.
    You need to clarify. Are you saying that Russia does not have economic power to project or that it does not have the economic capacity to support military power projection?

    Currently they can only threaten their previous SU empire border countries and that is about it and yet when those countries were offered an alternative their ran in the direction of the EU/NATO not in the direction of Russia--wonder why?
    How is the 'why' relevant to Russia's capabilities?

    Some argue that the US is in demise--but can it still project political, military and economic power anywhere in the world---yes it can.
    Relative decline. That's an important distinction.

    I would argue that while chasing UBL and jihadi's around the world they have via their counter threat finance group discovered in fact a fourth power---the power to monitor the flows of USDs and if needed apply legal power against those flows just as they are now applying it against Russian state owned businesses and banks. AP that is the ultimate power and they have learned very well how to use it--ask the Iranians, ask the European banks and the fines they are paying
    In other words - sanctions. That's not new. And the historical record of the effectiveness of sanctions is mixed.

    Russia is simply a developing country with two raw resources that is being used to finance a corrupt government, a corrupt ruling elite, and the oligarchs that have failed in providing an increased standard of living for the entire Russia population equal to the earnings coming from those resources since 1994.
    If that's the case, what's with the hysteria about the threat Russia poses to the United States? Russia cannot simultaneously be a third-rate country and an existential threat to U.S. interests. Either Russia is a threat or it is not - if it is a threat, it's on the basis of its capabilities. If it's not a threat, why not just ignore it?
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    So nobody wants to answer my questions but just keeps on posting anti putin bull####.

    THIS IS A DIRECT challenge. TO ALL of you.



    Shall we list the lies USA/NATO has said in the last 20 years yet again? Let's.

    1990 babies taken out of incubators and left to die on cold hospital floor
    1990-1999 Saddam working on nuclear weapons
    2001 Osama engineered and did 9-11
    2001-2003 Saddam has ties with Ali Queda
    2001-2003 Saddam has weapons of mass distraction (Colin Powell, Bush jr, Cheney, Condy Rice, etc)
    2002-2203 Saddam working on weapons of mass distraction
    2002-2003 Saddam working on acquiring nuclear weapons
    2001 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2001 Iran has ties with Ali Queda
    2002 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2003 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2004 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2005 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2006 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2007 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2008 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2009 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2010 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2011 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2012 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2013 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2013 Assad gassed his own people (part 1)
    2013 Assad gassed his own people (part 2)
    2014 Iran will have nuclear bomb
    2014 Assad gassed his own people (part 3)

    Let's leave for now the lies USA used to start the Vietnam war, the Korean war, WWII, war againts Spain and so on. I havent listed the lies we have caught

    them about Ukraine. MH17, Russia invading(3 times, etc)


    Nobody wants to answer my questions about all the lies USA/NATO have said in the last 20 years and to answer to me WHY anyone would STILL believe anything USA/NATO says but you are quick to gut infractions on me.

    If you think I will stop you are all sadly mistaken. Again, I ask:
    After all the lies USA/NATO have said in the last 20 years why would anyone still believe anything USA/NATO says about anything? Unless one of course is either a hopeless total idiot or a shill. So .....which ones are you all?


    I DEMAND an answer.

    Direct challenge to Carl: answer my question please, dont try to be funny. If I don't get an answer, they I will know what you are. Somebody who cannot answer questions because he cannot.
    Last edited by Petkov; 09-03-2014 at 02:04 AM.

  15. #15
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petkov View Post
    So nobody wants to answer my questions but just keeps on posting anti putin bull####.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petkov View Post
    Direct challenge to Carl: answer my question please, dont try to be funny. If I don't get an answer, they I will know what you are. Somebody who cannot answer questions because he cannot.
    And yep again.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  16. #16
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    AP---you actually have to finally have your own opinions. You tear things about much like Dayuhan does and yet we seem to never see a total comment by you --so start by answering JMAs comments.

    Your comments show you do now understand the use of power soft or hard.

    If the rouge state in this case Russia has power pressure addressed towards it ie sanctions then:

    1) Russia has two choices either continue down the path of total isolation and economic demise or

    2) adjust it's actions and attempt to rejoin the community it claims to want to be accepted by as a superpower or equal to the G7 he tried to join for over seven years

    As some say here it is their own choice and it is not being pushed on them the last time I checked---was it not the "little green men" that first Putin denied they existed--- but strangely then did admit they existed that suddenly appeared on a former piece of the Ukraine-- Crimea after annexation,

    So did the West- the EU- the NATO, or the US start this game over seven months ago? Remember every thing on NATO did this or that or US did this or that is just another smoke screen he has been running since 2008.

    Even his argument of no Russian troops actually inside the Ukraine has fallen completely apart by today with over ten Russian soldiers posting on Russian social media stating they were all inside the Ukraine ---who all forgot that their photos were geo tagged.

    Yesterday there were comments coming out of Moscow that Putin had given his military orders to stop weapons from crossing into the Ukraine but somehow they were ignored as the 50 armored vehicles videoed today crossing the border seem to suggest the opposite just as the FSB ignored his orders to secure the border. So it begs the question is he or is he not in charge are is anything he says for real?

    Putin is in his own world of perceptions but after yesterday he has now the two choices.

    It is now fish or cut bait time and since he is a outdoors type he should know how---and it will be interesting to see the choice he takes.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-31-2014 at 08:52 PM.

  17. #17
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    AP---you actually have to finally have your own opinions. You tear things about much like Dayuhan does and yet we seem to never see a total comment by you --so start by answering JMAs comments.
    My opinions are scattered throughout this entire thread - they're probably buried under the mountain of comments that you have provided. Namely, my opinion from the beginning and remains that resolving the political crisis in Ukraine means having free, open, internationally monitored elections inclusive of ethnic Russians. Just because you failed to read it doesn't mean I don't have my own opinion.

    Russia has two choices either continue down the path of total isolation and economic demise or
    Russia is not on a "path of total isolation". It's on a path of relative isolation from the United States and Europe. Is the 'economic demise' of Russia a realistic or even rational policy? What is gained by destroying Russia?

    adjust it's actions and attempt to rejoin the community it claims to want to be accepted by as a superpower
    The thing about superpowers - they don't join communities. They build communities around them. That's alliance-making 101. Joining a 'community" (a regime with norms and structures) means ceding some degree of autonomy. Great powers are notoriously jealous of their autonomy so why would Russia be at all interested in joining the U.S.-led system under U.S. conditions with which it clearly disagrees?

    Sanctions are going to put the U.S.-Russian relationship in the freezer for a long-time; it will harm Russian economic interests for a short time but states eventually adapt to their conditions, and so sanctions lose their utility over time. Which means we are giving the Russians another pretext to continue pursuing its role as a spoiler rather than building opportunities for engagment to resolve points of conflict.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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