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Thread: Ukraine: military (Aug '14 to mid-June '15) closed

  1. #261
    Council Member mirhond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Money and weapons to the Ukrainians. They have all the men and fighting spirit they need already.
    ROFL, It'a a great pity that you don't know Russian or Ukrainian:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO6HHIv4JKI

    0:30 Wives at home without jobs, we got 1800 Hrn per month, lets enlistment officer who send me into this s#!thole go here for this money.
    1:20 One guy lost his sight - state doesn't give a s#!t
    1:50 I've earned 5 times more than here doing crap.
    et cetera
    general expression of the soldier's speech: I'AM FU(KING FED UP WITH THIS FU(KING S#!T!!111

    If those guys die their local communities are probably better off for it. But if their contract professional soldiers start dying, things change.
    There is no evidence of contract professional soldiers at the scene, in the first place, so your precious Vlad won't bother.

    Upd
    Breaking news! Mistery of "The lost convoy" revealed!

    Das ist eher fraglich. Komischerweise war vom Kiewer Stab der sogenannten Anti-Terror-Operation dazu stundenlang nichts zu hören. Erst gegen Abend meldete das Büro von Präsident Petro Poroschenko - und nicht etwa der zuständige Militärstab - die "teilweise" Vernichtung der Kolonne. Bilder davon hat die Regierung in Kiew bis heute nicht vorgelegt, auch die Amerikaner haben offenbar keine. Die besagte Kolonne ist inzwischen zudem von allen ukrainischen Nachrichtenseiten verschwunden.

    So bleibt der Eindruck: Ja, den Einmarsch der 23 Fahrzeuge hat es tatsächlich gegeben, den Angriff möglicherweise aber nicht. Denn Kiew reagierte überhaupt erst, nachdem die Meldungen der beiden britischen Korrespondenten die Runde gemacht hatten. Eigentlich sollte es umgekehrt sein: Die eigene Aufklärung stellt das Eindringen der Fahrzeuge fest und berichtet darüber der Öffentlichkeit.
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-986481.html

    Hilarious! Western journalists are definetly more aware of situation than COIN HQ and Poroshenko himself.
    Last edited by mirhond; 08-23-2014 at 04:59 PM.
    Haeresis est maxima opera maleficarum non credere.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    ROFL, It'a a great pity that you don't know Russian or Ukrainian:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO6HHIv4JKI

    0:30 Wives at home without jobs, we got 1800 Hrn per month, lets enlistment officer who send me into this s#!thole go here for this money.
    1:20 One guy lost his sight - state doesn't give a s#!t
    1:50 I've earned 5 times more than here doing crap.
    et cetera
    general expression of the soldier's speech: I'AM FU(KING FED UP WITH THIS FU(KING S#!T!!111



    There is no evidence of contract professional soldiers at the scene, in the first place, so your precious Vlad won't bother.

    Upd
    Breaking news! Mistery of "The lost convoy" revealed!



    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-986481.html

    Hilarious! Western journalists are definetly more aware of situation than COIN HQ and Poroshenko himself.
    come on comrade mirhond---even you have to now admit the photos, IDs, and Russian social media has fully indicated 38 Russian soldiers of the 76th AB Div were wounded and 60 killed.

    figure out how many per IFV and you will come to the total of 100 plus Russians on the convoy.

    come on comrade at least get your information sources correct

  3. #263
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    Awaiting the geo tagging of the solid fuel booster for the SS21 that was found in the Ukraine.

    https://twitter.com/zexep/status/503...898560/photo/1
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-23-2014 at 06:42 PM.

  4. #264
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    It appears that the Russian Army is expanding UAV and cross border artillery/MRL attacks now in the southern Ukraine.

    https://twitter.com/GorseFires/statu...46211550547968

    #BreakingNews Russian army attacked the border crossing of #Novoazovsk near Mariupol multiple times during the last 2 days w/ Grads+mortars.

    This goes a long way in understanding why the Russian Army is now engaging in the south along the Black Sea---there are indicators that the Russians want to expand their border control all the way to Odessa.

    Notice the interplay between Russian artillery and mercenary artillery on the town Novoazoysk. from both sides of the border.

    DONETSK, August 23 (RIA Novosti) – Ukrainian militia in the restive Donetsk region told RIA Novosti Saturday they were now fighting their way to the Sea of Azov in the country’s south.

    A source in the militia headquarters told our correspondent that self-defense forces had been pounding government troops’ positions near the town of Novoazovsk, a port on the southeastern tip of Ukraine.

    If the militias are victorious, forces of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) will gain access to the Sea of Azov, which is a northern extension of the Black Sea, while also taking control of a local checkpoint and forcing pro-Kiev troops away from the border with Russia.

    Earlier reports said that heavy fighting near the Novoazovsk border crossing prompted Russian border guards to pull back inside the country over security concerns.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-23-2014 at 09:27 PM.

  5. #265
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    NATO states Russian troops are inside the Ukraine---Moscow says no then this comes across the blogger world:

    https://twitter.com/lennutrajektoor/...72204889763840

  6. #266
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    ROFL, It'a a great pity that you don't know Russian or Ukrainian:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO6HHIv4JKI

    0:30 Wives at home without jobs, we got 1800 Hrn per month, lets enlistment officer who send me into this s#!thole go here for this money.
    1:20 One guy lost his sight - state doesn't give a s#!t
    1:50 I've earned 5 times more than here doing crap.
    et cetera
    general expression of the soldier's speech: I'AM FU(KING FED UP WITH THIS FU(KING S#!T!!111

    There is no evidence of contract professional soldiers at the scene, in the first place, so your precious Vlad won't bother.

    Upd
    Breaking news! Mistery of "The lost convoy" revealed!

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-986481.html

    Hilarious! Western journalists are definetly more aware of situation than COIN HQ and Poroshenko himself.
    I don't exactly know what your point is but when regular Russian troops come over the border in number (regardless of what they call themselves or are wearing) the fighting spirit and ability of the Ukrainians will be directly measurable by counting the number of full body bags heading back east. And if the Ukrainians were to be given more than adequate numbers of good weapons by us the prospect of that number of body bags being large may dissuade Vlad. Good for the Ukrainians, good for Russian mothers. Everybody is happy.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  7. #267
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    So AP let's see your arguments that go like this;
    Let's measures the accuracy of your characterizations.

    1. Russia is a nuclear power
    Yes, I have stated this fact a number of times. In contrast, you seem to ignore this fact when advocating for continued escalation in confronting Russia or in building an achiveable policy capable of fulfilling U.S. interests.

    and therefore "owns" central and eastern Europe
    Incorrect. I have not stated that Russia "owns" eastern Europe. I have, however, stated that Russia, as a state, has material interests that it pursues with rational policy, and that these interests should be taken into account when the U.S. develops policy towards Russia.

    because we the US have no what business interests to the tune of billions which also drives the US economy
    Incorrect. I have stated that Ukraine's territorial integrity is not the exclusive nor most important U.S. interest in the world.

    and we the US have never claimed that we are not somehow leading the western world nor are member of the Altantic Council/NATO
    Incorrect. I have stated that Ukraine is not a NATO member and by implication, the U.S. has no security obligations towards Ukraine.

    and oh by the way we signed a memorandum protecting the sovereignty of the Ukraine that now when we are called out on we what simply say it is not our problem
    What material obligations does that memorandum impose upon the U.S. in this situation?

    2. IS is not a threat to the US
    That would be contrary to the opinion of many leading analysts in government and scholarship.

    ---a threat to the existing borders of four countries in the ME yes they are but it is not up to the US to settle that particular area
    Settling that region's problems is one thing. Securing U.S. interests is another. And yes - the U.S. has to actively protect its interests in the region.

    was it not you yourself that argued yes if we just appease and negotiate
    Incorrect. I never said 'appease'. I said negotiate. It's fully possible to negotiate without 'appeasment'.

    and understand the Russia desires to reinstate the Soviet Union this whole thing will simply disappear
    Incorrect. I have said repeatedly that it is important to understand the material interests of the Russian state, and what policies they are pursuing to achieve them. Dismissing them out of hand is an error of the first order.

    ---you never have seemed to fully understand the ethnic nationalist imperialism that Putin and the elites around him have called into being---some would call it a new form of state fasicism
    Incorrect. I have in fact pointed out that all of Russia's conflicts since 1991 have involved problems of ethnic nationalism (and normalizing borders and state building). I have also pointed out that Russia historically was and largely remains an imperial state that does not fully conform to the principles of Westphalian nation-statehood.

    Also still awaiting your stated "negotiating solutions"---and my response was what---"negotiate what".
    This has already been addressed more than once. Repeatedly asking the same question does not constitute an argument - it's actually a failure to undersand the argument.

    Again go back and Google the terms invasion and what defines a declaration of war.
    How many wars end with negotiated settlments and how many end with the annihilation of one of the belligerents?

    You seem fixated on the idea that I am not aware that Russia has been pursuing acts of aggression of Ukraine. I've acknowledged this many pages ago. It's time to move the argument forward. You have left many questions unanswered about the preferable U.S. outcome, what policy options are available to achieve it, and how to compel Russia to terminate the conlfict.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

  8. #268
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Come back to this statement in 7 days time and 14 days time and lets see how you did. Then in one months time after that.

    Can you do that?
    Sure - conflicts aren't resolved in one sitting. That the Ukrainian and Russian governments are coming together to initiate talks is a good indicator that both sides prefer a negotiated settlement than continuing with Clausewitz's reciprocal actions until one or the other is destroyed. At some point, they will come to terms, whatever they determine those terms to be.

    An announcement that weapons are coming would cause Vlad to have a kiniption and threaten all sorts of things.
    Probably. The problem is that the Russians are in a position where they can continue escalating the conflict with minimal internal costs.

    But he ain't gonna start WWIII over some anti-tank missiles.
    No - but he could probably double the amount of Russian soliders operating in Ukraine.

    And with money and weapons to the Ukrainians the potential Russki body count goes way up. That is one thing Vlad hasn't had to deal with yet, lots of actual Russki soldiers getting killed.
    Interesting you should say that and then also claim that Russian state control of the media distorts the public's perceptions of the actual costs to the state. So how do you reconcile those two points?

    But if their contract professional soldiers start dying, things change.
    Things change for who?
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

  9. #269
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default A Diplomatic Solution for Ukraine

    A group of Anglo-American retired diplomats, with experience of serving in the former USSR, have a short article in National Interest and it ends with:
    ...Western leaders should not shrink from employing all of their available tools to increase the incentive to Moscow to pursue a negotiated settlement.
    Link:http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-ukraine-11135
    davidbfpo

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    So this on an article on Ukraine in the NY Times.



    I think that may be largely accurate. If so, Ukraine continues to make progress in re-establishing control in the east.

  11. #271
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Sure - conflicts aren't resolved in one sitting. That the Ukrainian and Russian governments are coming together to initiate talks is a good indicator that both sides prefer a negotiated settlement than continuing with Clausewitz's reciprocal actions until one or the other is destroyed. At some point, they will come to terms, whatever they determine those terms to be.

    Probably. The problem is that the Russians are in a position where they can continue escalating the conflict with minimal internal costs.

    No - but he could probably double the amount of Russian soliders operating in Ukraine.

    Interesting you should say that and then also claim that Russian state control of the media distorts the public's perceptions of the actual costs to the state. So how do you reconcile those two points?

    Things change for who?
    A KGB guy initiating talks is not a good indicator that said KGB guy prefers a negotiated settlement, unless that settlement is to discuss surrender terms. But maybe the world has changed....no, it hasn't.

    They can escalate only at the cost of committing the regular military and that has a very definite internal cost. There are only so many forces available, not to mention those filled body bags going east.

    I don't remember claiming media distorts the Russian public's perceptions of the actual costs to the state. But there are many things I forget. But it does, that is true. But it is true also that they can only hide so much. When those body bags start coming home people are going to start talking amongst each other and amongst each other and the gloriousness of the endeavor may begin to fade. King Vlad may not look so good then

    Like I said before, if all you are going to think about is what he can do to you, you won't win. You want to win? It is best to follow Grant's advice.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Let's measures the accuracy of your characterizations.



    Yes, I have stated this fact a number of times. In contrast, you seem to ignore this fact when advocating for continued escalation in confronting Russia or in building an achiveable policy capable of fulfilling U.S. interests.



    Incorrect. I have not stated that Russia "owns" eastern Europe. I have, however, stated that Russia, as a state, has material interests that it pursues with rational policy, and that these interests should be taken into account when the U.S. develops policy towards Russia.



    Incorrect. I have stated that Ukraine's territorial integrity is not the exclusive nor most important U.S. interest in the world.



    Incorrect. I have stated that Ukraine is not a NATO member and by implication, the U.S. has no security obligations towards Ukraine.



    What material obligations does that memorandum impose upon the U.S. in this situation?



    That would be contrary to the opinion of many leading analysts in government and scholarship.



    Settling that region's problems is one thing. Securing U.S. interests is another. And yes - the U.S. has to actively protect its interests in the region.



    Incorrect. I never said 'appease'. I said negotiate. It's fully possible to negotiate without 'appeasment'.



    Incorrect. I have said repeatedly that it is important to understand the material interests of the Russian state, and what policies they are pursuing to achieve them. Dismissing them out of hand is an error of the first order.



    Incorrect. I have in fact pointed out that all of Russia's conflicts since 1991 have involved problems of ethnic nationalism (and normalizing borders and state building). I have also pointed out that Russia historically was and largely remains an imperial state that does not fully conform to the principles of Westphalian nation-statehood.



    This has already been addressed more than once. Repeatedly asking the same question does not constitute an argument - it's actually a failure to undersand the argument.



    How many wars end with negotiated settlments and how many end with the annihilation of one of the belligerents?

    You seem fixated on the idea that I am not aware that Russia has been pursuing acts of aggression of Ukraine. I've acknowledged this many pages ago. It's time to move the argument forward. You have left many questions unanswered about the preferable U.S. outcome, what policy options are available to achieve it, and how to compel Russia to terminate the conlfict.
    AP---a lot of words but really nothing said.
    there is one simple outcome with a few side steps in it.

    1. the current Putin doctrine which can in fact be used now by any country if not stopped is as follows---I can on my own and under no international law declare any of my former and current ethnic citizens in another country to be in "distress and discriminated against" therefore I can without again any international law occupy who I want to in the defense of those perceived distressed ethnic citizens of mine

    2. reestablish in central Europe the thesis that national borders as they existed in 1994 and recognized even by the former Soviets now Russians exist and sovereign territories are to not be used for proxy wars which actually was the state of Europe until Russian took control of Moldavian and Georgian territory and then the Crimea and now eastern/southern Ukraine

    3. reestablish the simple fact that a major nuclear power actually threatens their neighbors--and understand what drives that threat---ethno nationalist imperialism from an unresolved historical breakup caused not by the West but by their own leaders---see this is the difference between us --you tend to blame the West I tend to say Putin is in fact trying to turn back the clock on decisions made by former Soviet Communist leaders who lead the SU until 1994.

    Here is the difference between you writing tons of words and myself--I have read and fully understand their eight phase UW strategy called the New Generational Warfare and I fully understand how they use political warfare. You still have not agreed that Russia/Putin is already in phase six of that UW strategy.

    And I different from you fully understand the US/NATO/EU have no general strategy against the current Russian UW as being practiced currently inside the Ukraine.

    Answer your question?

    By the way noticed you have come off the negotiation bit.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-24-2014 at 08:48 AM.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    A group of Anglo-American retired diplomats, with experience of serving in the former USSR, have a short article in National Interest and it ends with:
    Link:http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-ukraine-11135
    David---key sentence is here:

    In addition to a lack of good-faith participation by Russia, the negotiations have three structural weaknesses: the exclusion of key actors, the narrow scope of the talks and the illogic of pursuing a cease-fire.

    There was some interesting comments being made around the bloggers yesterday to this.

    There has been a lack of good faith participation by Russia for the simply reason they assume they will win in the end due to their being currently in a phase six of their New Generation Warfare and the West still outside of sanctions has not responded--coupled with the simple fact that since the Russian military has now fully engaged inside the Ukraine they cannot simply pull back as that would be assumed in their eyes and in the eyes of the hardliners as a "defeat". and sine 1945 they have not suffered a defeat---even AFG was spun to be a win.

    A defeat is not in the cards as long as the Russian military has it's say in the decision making.

    What is not mentioned in the article is how do you negotiate when in fact there are four groups of decision makers in the game---the military, the security services, the oligarchs, and the Russian mob---Putin is just a meditator among them all who has been great at balancing them and driving them forward. Notice all his former liberal tending advisors are not longer around him--all hardliners driven by a hatred of the West and western values.

    Also not mentioned in the article---how does the West negotiate when in fact the core driver ethno nationalist imperialism built on a perceived failure by the last Communist leaders is not being addressed inside Russia itself.

    Just as in the Sunni/Shia clash until that single driver is fully addressed and worked out internally Russia will remain aggressive in their belief the West is responsible for everything.

    One needs to fully understand what is driving Putin and company and we in the West seem to not to want to address that as many feel nationalism under any flag died in 1994 but 20 years later it seems to be still there.

    Noticed also a failure in the article to discuss what I feel is the core underlining fact for Putin and company---the 23.8.1939 secret agreement where Stalin virtually annexed five countries--even in Russia this annexation is still being denied for what it was--a blatant land grab not a merging of brotherly communists who wanted to join the SU.

    Notice the countries "given to Stalin" and where Russia is pushing now--therein lies for Putin his current legitimacy as he "feels" he is channeling Stalin these days in the revival of the former SU that he has been driving since 1999 if one really goes back and reads all his interviews over the years--it is there to be read---we Americans and many Europeans simply do not take the time.

    He is easy to understand--but one must read as it is all there and open source.

    Still surprised how little history seems to be considered in the current thread --it is as if the statement one must learn from history is not fashionable these days?

    NOTE: There is something more critical that many are not following--when the authors state about NATO and revitalization and potentially moving new bases in and around say the Baltics and Bulgaria---notice how suddenly Germany states no and references the 4 plus 2 agreements.

    Really read those agreements and one will then fully understands just where the German politics with Russia go.

    A really small comment that was fully over looked was made by Putin in his Duma speech which is one of the most important articles to read if one wants to understand the current events.

    Putin quietly stated ---remember Germany we were the ones who allowed and supported your reunification efforts--which if one is honest and correctly looks at western leader statements to include the US---the west was not all that hep to support German reunification.

    He used this comment in conjunction on his explanation of the why the Crimea was to be returned to Russia ie similar to German reunification.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-24-2014 at 09:27 AM.

  14. #274
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    BW---the Ukrainians are moving but are finding it more and more difficult as the Russian Army is providing direct fire support via artillery, BM27s and
    BM21s plus moving heavy MBTs into the Ukraine.

    If the Germans and US had simply provided the Ukrainians enough body armor, night vision, and anti tank weapons this would be far easier for them to counter.

    I have been extremely interested in the German Kurdish response--they are willing to provide the Milan to the Kurds--but where is the IS armor and to the Ukrainians money and words are about it.

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    Russia continues to play the game of no I am not sending in troops, artillery and heavy weapons plus SAMs.

    And what is the West's response---silence if you ask me.

    And some commenters believe one can currently negotiate with Putin? He only understands the use of force and or the pain of a financial disaster and he is trying to get facts on the ground for hbis Tuesday meeting before his economy collapses and he has to explain that to his population.

    Russian MP Ilya Drozdov: "The sooner the bastardly entity called Ukraine is wiped off the map, the better". pic.twitter.com/tgIOUgLcsx

    Battalions "#Donbas", "#Dnepr" & #UA in #Ilovaisk say shelled by #Russian army professionals - 3-4 rounds every 30 sec. 3 WIA, 1 KIA.

    Tymchuk: Russian BM-27 Uragan self-propelled rocket launchers fired into #Ukraine from #Russia hitting Kuteinykove, near #Ilovaisk, #Donetsk

    A significant increase of Russian mercenaries, so called "Kadyrov Chechens" in particular, is indicated in Horlivka

    In #Amvrosiyivka #Russia's soldiers without insignia spotted, 250 armored vehicles built up for a possible attack on #Mariupol, #Novoazovsk

    Novoazovsk to Mariupol southern corridor; Sea of Azov (Taganrog Bay, Tahanrozka Gulf) subject to increased Russian drone surveillance #intel

    There is a report that the Russian army has moved 250+ armored vehicles & artillery pieces into Amvrosiivka #Ukraine http://news.liga.net/news/politics/3..._istochnik.htm

    Separatists took the district capital of #Telmanove, #Donetsk region, under control overnight, had been shelling #Novoazovsk border point

    #Amvrosiyivka, occupied #Ukraine: 250 #Russia armour and soldiers ammassing for pushing deeper into #Ukraine, poss. to attack #Mariupol
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-24-2014 at 12:11 PM.

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    Even the Russian are getting nervous:

    Rostov on the Don airport ordered to evacuation immediately.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvzFbm3IUAAfTDD.png:large

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    Let's see---another reason that the west should negotiate with the Russians;

    Under Articles 13 and 14 of the Geneva Convention that Russia signed in 1949--concerning the treatment of POWs and hostages.

    #BREAKING #DONETSK RIGHT NOW.
    RUSSIAN INVADERS PARADE HUNDREDS OF UKRAINIAN POW / HOSTAGES.
    pic.twitter.com/h2WAK9Ccyc


    #Donetsk #Ukraine, #Russia|n proxies forced their captives to walk through "corridor of shame

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCEmZmprIY0 … (Added by Moderator: comes up as private, owner needs to give access)

    pic.twitter.com/6PvExGdPPO
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-24-2014 at 03:59 PM.

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    Believe this is what JMA and others called for at the very beginning of this six months ago.

    Operation Atlantic Resolve: Ironhorse BCT prepares military equipment for European deployment:

    http://goo.gl/P8I38l

    There is absolutely no heavy US armor on the ground in the EU to at least provide the WH another option if needed.

    This is being shipped over at a massive cost---why it was never forward based as was the planning for the Reforger exercises is beyond me---maybe the DoD planners should explain why they sent all armored equipment back to the States in the first place--but wait they assumed that Russia had gone "peaceful".

    By the way the 1st Cav was always a premier heavy armored division to be used in the defense of Europe- and participated in all Reforger exercises--why now instead of six months ago?
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-24-2014 at 03:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Let's see---another reason that the west should negotiate with the Russians;

    Under Articles 13 and 14 of the Geneva Convention that Russia signed in 1949--concerning the treatment of POWs and hostages.

    #BREAKING #DONETSK RIGHT NOW.
    RUSSIAN INVADERS PARADE HUNDREDS OF UKRAINIAN POW / HOSTAGES.
    pic.twitter.com/h2WAK9Ccyc


    #Donetsk #Ukraine, #Russia|n proxies forced their captives to walk through "corridor of shame

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCEmZmprIY0 … (Added by Moderator: comes up as private, owner needs to give access)

    pic.twitter.com/6PvExGdPPO
    Appears that all blogger videos have been removed to include the one from the Russian LifeNews.

    Was able to find the Russian LifeNews video of the POW march.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRCS_MKl2PA&app=desktop

    This was in the UK Telegraph.

    Here's @Telegraph's report on POW's marched thro #Donetsk #Ukraine http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...f-Donetsk.html
    #CNN #News #MH17 #Russia pic.twitter.com/TGXkRGsa0Z

    Further violation of the Article 13 GC:

    In a gesture intended to show that the POW's were dirty, street cleaning vehicles moved behind them. #DNR #Russia http://af.reuters.com/article/energy...0QU0FA20140824
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-24-2014 at 04:59 PM.

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    Referencing the Russian killed airborne troops that were part of the convoy hit by Ukrainian artillery that Russia claimed did not exist even though the Ukrainians had their military IDs and passports.

    #Russia Army declares 6 #Pskov paratroopers reportedly KIA invading #Ukraine "victims of accidental shell detonation during wargame")

    The main airborne individual whose ID had been shown on Ukrainian media.

    Russian soldier's mother on his Russian social media page: "Dear friends! Leonid's funeral is on Monday at 10 am."
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-24-2014 at 04:55 PM.

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