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Thread: Ukraine: military (Aug '14 to mid-June '15) closed

  1. #4761
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    http://ukraine-english-news.forumoti...an-sources#756

    The European Commission considers "unacceptable" Moscow prepared a draft tripartite agreement on trade between the EU, Russia and Ukraine.

    Reported edition DW co reference to the German weekly Der Spiegel.

    According to the German weekly Der Spiegel, Brussels has rejected another attempt by the Kremlin to prevent the creation of a free trade area of the EU and Ukraine. The European Commission rejected a draft tripartite agreement that the Russian government has sent the EU on June 3 announced Friday evening, June 12, the German edition on its website. Full article published in the paper version of the weekly on 15 June.

    According to the journalists' Der Spiegel, a draft document prepared by the Moscow assumed a strict export and import controls, and import quotas in Russia 52 product categories - from hydraulic turbines and ships to beef and ice cream.

    "Russia proposed text is unacceptable", - quotes the edition of an EU Commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom trade chairman of the profile committee of the European Parliament Bernd Lange (Bernd Lange) on June 9. Such an agreement "imposed on Ukraine and EU unilateral commitments," - say in Brussels.

    This is AWESOME news. As I've been repeating that the Kremlin shouldn't call the shots on whether Ukraine does business and how it does business with other countries.

    They want to recuperate their own industries they've squandered, by controlling Ukraine's industries and prosperity which Ukraine has an abundance of. It'll force the Kremlin to start investing in its own infrastructure, instead of investing wholly on energy sources and its military. They want to rule Europe and will try to bring down any country that gets in its way.

    This news speaks massively. I'm glad Europe/EU Council finally had the guts to defend itself, instead of bowing to authoritarians. It's about time they grew a pair.

  2. #4762
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    http://ukraine-english-news.forumoti...an-sources#756

    The European Commission considers "unacceptable" Moscow prepared a draft tripartite agreement on trade between the EU, Russia and Ukraine.

    Reported edition DW co reference to the German weekly Der Spiegel.
    This is in reference to the EU Association Treaty with the Ukraine--Russian has tried to get into the conversation and dictate the final results in the treaty thus in effect controlling again what the Ukraine does--has been pushed back by the EC.

  3. #4763
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Not one for second guessing Congress but there has been a valid complaint out of the Ukraine that many Americans have utterly no understanding of what is ongoing in the Ukraine.

    The Azov BN has been literally on the forefront of fighting in the defense of the Ukraine and has taken loses in killed and wounded in doing exactly that—defending the Ukraine.

    Maybe sometimes Congressmen should get out of Dc and truly see the reality of war—then they might have a totally different approach to international relations.

    BTW—it was not a MANPAD that shot down MH17—it was a hardcore air defense missile as a MANPAD could not have reached the height that MH17 was flying at.
    Not wanting to critique either Reuters and WaPo—both have not have a great track record in reporting in the Ukraine.

    Wonder out loud if the Congressman has decided to also pass any amendments targeting Russia for their support in providing heavy weapons and money to Russian Nazi groups who are in the Ukraine killing both Ukrainian soldiers and civilians---noticed he said nothing about that did he?????

    Jun 11 2015

    U.S. House Passes 3 Amendments By Rep. Conyers To Defense Spending Bill To Protect Civilians From Dangers Of Arming and Training Foreign Forces



    CAN anyone explain to me just why the Azov BN would turn on the same government that they have paid dearly in defending ---in the face of daily massive artillery shellings and ground attacks for now over three months in Mariupol???

    Noticed the Congressman seems to have forgotten that OR maybe it was because Reuters and WaPo did not write about it???
    Seems the good Congressman was being "played"--the core question --for how much????

    WOW: Anti-Ukraine HR resolution by @repjohnconyers was mastered by Yanukovych's US lobbyisthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_J._Manafort … pic.twitter.com/MGDc9cVkG1

  4. #4764
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    Shellings and ground attacks begin for this evening and early morning has now started....going to be another long night.

    #Horlivka @NovaGorlivka "All day orcs bring up ammo in Ural trucks to the frontline"

    21:27 #Starohnativka @Staroignatievca Heavy shelling [incoming fr/Kamyanka]
    21:39 It was a warm-up [=lull]

    #Starohnativka #Staroignatievka 9:27PM
    Sounds like the evening fun has started, shooting hard https://twitter.com/Staroignatievca/...89196681760768

    Interesting configuration on this Azov fighter's PKM. Backpack ammo feeder? pic.twitter.com/qHhFEsHZJa

    Militants fire on Ukraine forces 65 times on Saturday, hitting civilian facilities near...
    http://www.unian.info/war/1089057-mi...r-donetsk.html … pic.twitter.com/NETsyWU8UA

    #Russia's $6M drone was shot down over #Avdeevka ⎯ the SAME area GWP sent his for recon. of #Ukraine's mil. positions pic.twitter.com/Qs0yXNg78G

    Occupants fired on our pos. in #Pisky-#Vodyane area all the day w 122-mm artillery, 120-mm mortars, tanks, AGS & RPG https://twitter.com/UaForces/status/609805705097420800

    Russian sergeant boasting in social networks his participation in the #Crimea and #Donbas occupation. pic.twitter.com/OQfdY3AO71

    #Marinka 22:33
    Shooting continues, small arms, AGS, mortars. https://twitter.com/hyeva_maryinka/s...07131202748416

    strong fighting reports in Mariinka area https://twitter.com/Don_Riccio/statu...05548616306689

    10:41PM
    Towards #Marinka there is a battle https://twitter.com/UKROPSTEEL/statu...07717818048512

    #Horlivka 10:39PM
    Center - shooting, small arms
    (possibly UAV) https://twitter.com/ItechVK/status/609807376313655297

    #Horlivka 10:39PM
    Shooting at UAV https://twitter.com/eco127127/status/609807447964954624

    #Debaltsevo 10:39PM
    Military equipment moving on the road https://twitter.com/samotniyvovk/sta...07306935693313

    Today a #Russia|n Air Force drone was shot down near #Nikolayevka by #Ukraine's military:
    http://nv.ua/ukraine/events/rossiysk...om--53616.html
    via⬇ pic.twitter.com/rDkhPVagae
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-13-2015 at 08:08 PM.

  5. #4765
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    Reference Moldavia and Transnistria-----

    Transnistrian "FM": "Ukraine and Moldova are already in a hybrid war against us" http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-internat...-impotriva.htm

    NEW PROVOCATION?: "Russian citizen shot in the center of Chisinau" http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-internat...tor-mascat.htm

    Transnistrian FM: "We know that Russia will not abandon us" http://www.mediafax.ro/externe/tiras...ndona-14448936
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-13-2015 at 08:11 PM.

  6. #4766
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Shellings and ground attacks begin for this evening and early morning has now started....going to be another long night.

    #Horlivka @NovaGorlivka "All day orcs bring up ammo in Ural trucks to the frontline"

    21:27 #Starohnativka @Staroignatievca Heavy shelling [incoming fr/Kamyanka]
    21:39 It was a warm-up [=lull]

    #Starohnativka #Staroignatievka 9:27PM
    Sounds like the evening fun has started, shooting hard https://twitter.com/Staroignatievca/...89196681760768

    Interesting configuration on this Azov fighter's PKM. Backpack ammo feeder? pic.twitter.com/qHhFEsHZJa

    Militants fire on Ukraine forces 65 times on Saturday, hitting civilian facilities near...
    http://www.unian.info/war/1089057-mi...r-donetsk.html … pic.twitter.com/NETsyWU8UA

    #Russia's $6M drone was shot down over #Avdeevka ⎯ the SAME area GWP sent his for recon. of #Ukraine's mil. positions pic.twitter.com/Qs0yXNg78G

    Occupants fired on our pos. in #Pisky-#Vodyane area all the day w 122-mm artillery, 120-mm mortars, tanks, AGS & RPG https://twitter.com/UaForces/status/609805705097420800

    Russian sergeant boasting in social networks his participation in the #Crimea and #Donbas occupation. pic.twitter.com/OQfdY3AO71

    #Marinka 22:33
    Shooting continues, small arms, AGS, mortars. https://twitter.com/hyeva_maryinka/s...07131202748416

    strong fighting reports in Mariinka area https://twitter.com/Don_Riccio/statu...05548616306689

    10:41PM
    Towards #Marinka there is a battle https://twitter.com/UKROPSTEEL/statu...07717818048512

    #Horlivka 10:39PM
    Center - shooting, small arms
    (possibly UAV) https://twitter.com/ItechVK/status/609807376313655297

    #Horlivka 10:39PM
    Shooting at UAV https://twitter.com/eco127127/status/609807447964954624

    #Debaltsevo 10:39PM
    Military equipment moving on the road https://twitter.com/samotniyvovk/sta...07306935693313

    Today a #Russia|n Air Force drone was shot down near #Nikolayevka by #Ukraine's military:
    http://nv.ua/ukraine/events/rossiysk...om--53616.html
    via⬇ pic.twitter.com/rDkhPVagae
    Interesting configuration on this Azov fighter's PKM. Backpack ammo feeder? pic.twitter.com/qHhFEsHZJa
    VIDEO
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhR5EpYTd6o

  7. #4767
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    Breaking one of the Russian economic weapons they use within their non linear warfare against the Ukraine.

    http://www.unian.info/economics/1088...tep-taken.html

    Ukraine without Gazprom: Another step taken

    12.06.2015 | 13:05

    Nana Сhornaya

    Ukraine has received a real opportunity to provide itself with gas, without a contract with Gazprom, and to deprive the Russian monopoly of control over gas transit to Europe. The Ukrainian and Hungarian operators of gas transportation systems (GTS operators) - Ukrtransgaz and FGSZ – have signed an agreement on the interconnectors, involving the exchange of data on the operations of cross-border gas pipelines. This will eliminate Gazprom from the schemes of gas cooperation between Ukraine and the European Union.

    While the Ukrainian media didn’t quite pick up on the issue, probably due to the sophisticated term “interconnector”, the Russian media responded immediately with vigorous comments. The Russians believe that it will be impossible for Ukraine to receive the expected result, as Kyiv will not be able to convince Gazprom to play on its energy market by the new rules. It is being underlined that Gazprom earlier included a condition in the 2009 gas contract prohibiting virtual reverse gas flow.

    “Legalizing virtual reverse [gas flow] without Gazprom Export (Gazprom’s export subsidiary) is not possible, it would still be illegitimate form of work on in the wake of what is happening in Europe. Moreover, we have never received any invitation to discuss these issues, from anyone,” said the deputy chairman of Gazprom Alexander Medvedev.

    Meanwhile, the signed document allows Ukraine to switch to a virtual reverse gas flow, according to the EU’s Third Energy Package, which was implemented in Ukraine in April 2015 by the adoption of a law on the gas market. This mechanism removes payments for transportation of reverse flow gas, and also creates the possibility of using Ukrainian underground storage facilities by the European companies. That is, certain preconditions have appeared for the creation of a gas hub on Ukrainian territory.

    The agreement is the first such document signed with an EU member state, and it regards only Hungary. But Naftogaz also plans to sign similar agreements with Slovak, Polish and Romanian operators, which have been providing reverse has flow to Ukraine, and says these European partners are ready to do so.

    The announcement by Naftogaz explains the legitimacy and benefits from signing the agreement, “Such operations [virtual reverse gas flow] are performed automatically by the European operators and do not create artificial demand in the construction of new facilities.”

    Before the agreement, reverse gas had to physically cross the border from Ukraine to Hungary and then back - which implied the payment for transit, while now Ukraine will be able to retain on its territory a certain portion of the gas that is transited through Ukraine to Hungary.

    The signing of these agreements was made possible from late May of this year, with the implementation of another principle of the Energy Community, which Ukraine is a member of since February 1, 2011. It is a network code of information exchange between GTS operators.

    The Energy Community is a Regional Association of South-Eastern Europe, created in 2006 to provide the member states and the European Union with social and economic stability, and security of energy supplies. In the medium term, integrated energy markets are expected to be formed across the region. The main technical regulations are the Second and the Third Energy Packages (the First Package is no longer valid after the implementation of the second package). The basis of the second package (which entered into force in 2003) is the requirement for the separation of vertically integrated companies. The Third Energy Package, which Ukraine implemented only in 2015, entered into force in 2011. It consists of five documents designed to eliminate monopolies and anti-competitive activity on the EU gas market. Russia believes that the document is aimed against Gazprom as the main gas supplier to the EU, which is also engaged in the extraction of fuel, its transportation and sale. As a consequence, the Russian Federation did not ratify the energy package.

    “In the EU, after the implementation of the Third Energy Package, [virtual reverse – UNIAN] is one of the basic modes of operation on the European gas market. It makes no sense to physically move gas. Take the example of supplying Norwegian gas to the Czech Republic, which has no exit to the sea and does not have common borders with the gas supplier. Gas comes into this country via Germany, but that does not mean that it is transported across the territory of Germany. Just the amount of gas which has been paid for is taken, and that is the virtual transportation,” said the president of the Strategy XXI Center Mykhaylo Honchar.

    Naftogaz also explained that the next step to ensure full cooperation between European and Ukrainian operators based on the European principles is to obtain information from Gazprom on gas supplies to the EU, and adopting amendments to Ukrainian legislation.

    “For co-operation between adjacent operators to become full-fledged, Gazprom must provide Ukrtransgaz with information on gas flows through Ukraine to Europe (shipper codes),” reads the statement by the national energy company.

    Today, Gazprom does not provide the Ukrainian party with the so-called shipper codes, or information on the individual batches of gas it transports through the territory of Ukraine. The whole volume of gas is then given at the gas metering stations on Ukraine’s western border to Gazprom Export. After that Gazprom transfers the gas to the GTS operators of the countries neighboring Ukraine, giving them the shipper codes.

    “Thus, Gazprom took up a number of important functions of a GTS operator, which is a violation of European energy legislation, as it creates limitations on full cooperation between the operators of the neighboring countries on the territory of the Energy Community,” Naftogaz officials say.

    Without seeing the shipper codes, Naftogaz cannot agree on the purchase of gas, cannot perform any other commercial operations, or organize virtual reverse gas flow. Gazprom has repeatedly stated that it would not disclose the shipper codes, as such a mechanism was not provided for by the 2009 contract. In addition, Gazprom has repeatedly stressed that it considered the reverse gas flow, in general, as an unlawful actions by Ukraine. It also seems that Gazprom does not intend to consider the opinion of the Euro Commission, with its rejection of European regulations based on the fact that it is not a member of the Energy Community. It has also ignored the implementation of the Third Energy Package.

    Naftogaz still hopes for reasonableness from Gazprom. At the same time, the head of the national energy company Andriy Kobolev says that if the Russian monopolist refuses to comply with the requirement of European legislation, a formal complaint will be submitted to the European Commission's Directorate-General for Competition, which has already been conducting an antitrust investigation into the actions of Gazprom.

    Scenarios of the story with the shipper codes.

    Therefore, the main issue on today’s agenda is whether Ukraine gets Gazprom to disclose the shipper codes.

    Valentyn Zemlyansky, director of the energy programs at the Center of World Economy and International Relations of the Ukraine’s National academy of sciences, is pessimistic. “We won’t be able to [get these shipper codes from Gazprom.] Gazprom has covered all the main directions of transit with long-term transit contracts. Changing the situation is possible only in the case of the revision of contracts between Gazprom and its European counterparts, as well as of the agreement on transit between Gazprom and Naftogaz,” said Zemlyansky. He believes that the signed agreement is more of a political success, rather than an economic one.

    But even if the difference may be made by breaking the 2009 contract between Naftogaz and Gazprom, it turns out that there still is some hope for success. On June 16, 2014, Naftogaz filed a lawsuit to the Arbitration Institute of the Stockholm Chamber of Commerce concerning the establishment of a fair and market price for the gas that Gazprom supplies to Ukraine. The lawsuit also requires the recovery from Gazprom of overpayments for gas that has been supplied to Naftogaz by the Russian monopolist since 2010. The company estimates that the overpayment amounts to $6 billion. In addition, Naftogaz requires a revision of the contract on gas transit to Europe. On the same day Gazprom filed a suit to the arbitral tribunal demanding the recovery of a debt from Naftogaz of $4.5 billion for gas that was delivered but had not been paid for. The mutual claims of Naftogaz and Gazprom have been merged into one case in the Stockholm arbitration.

    Continued...............

  8. #4768
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Shellings and ground attacks begin for this evening and early morning has now started....going to be another long night.

    #Horlivka @NovaGorlivka "All day orcs bring up ammo in Ural trucks to the frontline"

    21:27 #Starohnativka @Staroignatievca Heavy shelling [incoming fr/Kamyanka]
    21:39 It was a warm-up [=lull]

    #Starohnativka #Staroignatievka 9:27PM
    Sounds like the evening fun has started, shooting hard https://twitter.com/Staroignatievca/...89196681760768

    Interesting configuration on this Azov fighter's PKM. Backpack ammo feeder? pic.twitter.com/qHhFEsHZJa

    Militants fire on Ukraine forces 65 times on Saturday, hitting civilian facilities near...
    http://www.unian.info/war/1089057-mi...r-donetsk.html … pic.twitter.com/NETsyWU8UA

    #Russia's $6M drone was shot down over #Avdeevka ⎯ the SAME area GWP sent his for recon. of #Ukraine's mil. positions pic.twitter.com/Qs0yXNg78G

    Occupants fired on our pos. in #Pisky-#Vodyane area all the day w 122-mm artillery, 120-mm mortars, tanks, AGS & RPG https://twitter.com/UaForces/status/609805705097420800

    Russian sergeant boasting in social networks his participation in the #Crimea and #Donbas occupation. pic.twitter.com/OQfdY3AO71

    #Marinka 22:33
    Shooting continues, small arms, AGS, mortars. https://twitter.com/hyeva_maryinka/s...07131202748416

    strong fighting reports in Mariinka area https://twitter.com/Don_Riccio/statu...05548616306689

    10:41PM
    Towards #Marinka there is a battle https://twitter.com/UKROPSTEEL/statu...07717818048512

    #Horlivka 10:39PM
    Center - shooting, small arms
    (possibly UAV) https://twitter.com/ItechVK/status/609807376313655297

    #Horlivka 10:39PM
    Shooting at UAV https://twitter.com/eco127127/status/609807447964954624

    #Debaltsevo 10:39PM
    Military equipment moving on the road https://twitter.com/samotniyvovk/sta...07306935693313

    Today a #Russia|n Air Force drone was shot down near #Nikolayevka by #Ukraine's military:
    http://nv.ua/ukraine/events/rossiysk...om--53616.html
    via⬇ pic.twitter.com/rDkhPVagae
    Around 21:30, Rus shelled Ukr positions in area of Mariinka with artillery & mortars. DRG attempted to break through https://twitter.com/UaForces/status/609813348104957952

    #Donetsk 22:36
    A convoy of 10 tented Kamaz trucks through Kalinovka towards west https://twitter.com/Serzzze/status/609806964307161089

    #Donetsk 10:58PM
    Petrovka - everything had quieted down, far away rare explosions https://twitter.com/Ykrainaponadyse/...12119568187392

    Around 21:30, Rus shelled Ukr positions in area of Mariinka with artillery & mortars. DRG attempted to break through https://twitter.com/UaForces/status/609813348104957952

    Most tense situation stands near #Donetsk. Militants fired at residential areas of Opytne w tanks, IFVs, 122mm artil https://www.facebook.com/ato.news/po...13086272035512

  9. #4769
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    As part of the G7 meeting the US, France and Germany leaders indicated they would implement harder sanctions if Russia does not rein itself in and things get far more serous on the fighting front.

    Seems that Putin did not get that message--------


    We are now at that moment in historical times when these three countries verbally committed to do something NOW have to do something or forever hold their comments and allow Russian hegemony control over all of Europe.

    The average shellings and ground attacks had been holding over the last week in the 60 to 65 a day range--which was the average BEFORE Minsk 2.

    Yesterday the number of attacks shot up to 109 and it appears a Russian troop and her mercenaries are seconds away from an eminent general ground offensive.

    SO where is that loudly proclaimed G7 statement for more serious and harder sanctions if the fighting does not subside and gets worse.

    IT is worse now and YET--silence is what we hear from Obama, Hollande and Merkel.

    For whole of yesterday, Rus forces attacked UKR positions & residential areas 109 times. Twice used GRAD MLRS – ATO

    Y-day militants fired at Ukr positions 109 times - record in recent months. Hottest situation stands near #Donetsk https://www.facebook.com/ato.news/po...13350078675798

    Due to reports, militants launched new major offensive on Mariinka, west to Donetsk

  10. #4770
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    This morning around 6:30, enemy resumed shelling of Maryinka with howitzers and mortars. As of 8:30 shelling stopped https://twitter.com/UaForces/status/609965269063237632

    Michael McFaul ✔ @McFaul
    If sanctions arent working, then why does Putin keep asking for them to be lifted?

    And why "unbiased" Russian "Journalists" always travel with "Separatists" to the Front but unbiasedly refuse to do so with Ukrainians ?

    If Russia isnt part of the war in Donbas & not biased on reporting then why Russian Media always reports from the "Separatist" perspective ?

    Poland's Sikorski: US needs to be here b/c this part of Europe will determine US credibility towards its allies.

    Exclusive Interview: The most famous Ukrainian paratrooper mocks separat... https://youtu.be/tHvrjCGyaXw через @YouTube

    Militants resume using reactive artillery: shelled twice Novotoshkivske, #Luhansk region w/ Grad MRLS https://www.facebook.com/ato.news/po...13350078675798

    My final dispatch from eastern Ukraine for the AP: Life in no man's land http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/...ans-lands.html

  11. #4771
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    As part of the G7 meeting the US, France and Germany leaders indicated they would implement harder sanctions if Russia does not rein itself in and things get far more serous on the fighting front.

    Seems that Putin did not get that message--------


    We are now at that moment in historical times when these three countries verbally committed to do something NOW have to do something or forever hold their comments and allow Russian hegemony control over all of Europe.

    The average shellings and ground attacks had been holding over the last week in the 60 to 65 a day range--which was the average BEFORE Minsk 2.

    Yesterday the number of attacks shot up to 109 and it appears a Russian troop and her mercenaries are seconds away from an eminent general ground offensive.

    SO where is that loudly proclaimed G7 statement for more serious and harder sanctions if the fighting does not subside and gets worse.

    IT is worse now and YET--silence is what we hear from Obama, Hollande and Merkel.

    For whole of yesterday, Rus forces attacked UKR positions & residential areas 109 times. Twice used GRAD MLRS – ATO

    Y-day militants fired at Ukr positions 109 times - record in recent months. Hottest situation stands near #Donetsk https://www.facebook.com/ato.news/po...13350078675798

    Due to reports, militants launched new major offensive on Mariinka, west to Donetsk
    It might behoove Obama, Hollande and Merkel to reread this comment in light of the 109 attacks yesterday on Ukrainian positions--the highest single day ever recorded in the last year by the way.


    http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/06/1...ortnikov-says/

    Putin’s misreading of situation behind hardening of West’s position on Ukraine, Portnikov says
    2015/06/13

    The toughening of the West’s position on Ukraine, very much in evidence at the G7 meeting, reflects the fact that Vladimir Putin has fundamentally misread the situation and not taken advantage of the face-saving measures which the West had been offering him, according to Vitaly Portnikov.

    The Kremlin leader “sincerely believed that the fact that Merkel and Hollande came to him and that negotiations in Minsk followed were connected with the West’s fear of further destabilization.” But in fact, the Ukrainian commentator says, “Merkel like all other Western leaders was concerned above all with the need to give Putin the chance to save face.”

    Minsk was “a magnificent opportunity” for that, he continues. The “’peoples republics’” could continue to function but with Putin “looking not like a traitor but a peacekeeper and defender of the interests of ‘the Russian world’… And talks about Crimea in such a paradigm could continue forever.”

    Everyone “must understand that there is no good outcome for Putin here, although in the case of the second, [Ukrainians] may pay for a new outburst of aggression with the lives of [Ukrainian] soldiers and civilians, with destruction, and with economic losses.”
    “But all this was the case only if you viewed the situation realistically,” Portnikov says. But “if on the other hand, you are Putin, then you are certain that the West is “tired’ of Ukraine… and you are the one giving the West the opportunity to save face” by allowing talks to happen even as you solidify your control over a neighboring country.

    In his vision, “Ukraine of course will remain independent, but it must feed the territories you control and adopt a constitution which will preserve for the heads of these ‘peoples’ republics’ and that means for you, a veto. Thus, you have not moved an iota from the position which you took on the day when you decided that the place of Yanukovich and Crimea is inside Russia.” And if you are Putin, Portnikov says, “you think this is a compromise.”

    “But the West doesn’t think so, he continues, and it is gradually and quietly coming to the conclusion that “Putin doesn’t need to save face.” In that situation, “the only thing that the West can demand is the fulfillment to the letter of the Minsk agreements, these agreements and not what [Putin] thinks up instead of them.”

    That is, the West demands that Putin pull his forces out of the Donbas, agree to honest elections with OSCE observers, and “return to Ukraine control over the borders.” In short, Putin must “do everything which [he] from the start did not intend to do.” Putin by his custom thought he had “deceived everyone.” But in the event, he deceived only himself.

    Had Putin been willing to negotiate and fulfill the Minsk agreements, the hardening of the West’s position might not have happened, Portnikov suggests. But he wasn’t, and now “we are again at a fork in the road which will lead us either to peacemaking… or toward a new escalation, attempts at seizing new territories, the worsening of Russia’s relations with the West, and a new packet of sanctions much harsher than the previous ones.”

    Everyone “must understand that there is no good outcome for Putin here, although in the case of the second, [Ukrainians] may pay for a new outburst of aggression with the lives of [Ukrainian] soldiers and civilians, with destruction, and with economic losses,” the Ukrainian analyst says.

    It cannot be excluded that “Putin will not want to choose and will try to remain at the fork in the road as long as possible,” thus retaining his freedom of action and hoping that something will turn up. But he can’t do so for as long as he may think: he would have to continue to support the “DNR” and “LNR” and the Russian economy is not up to that at present.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-14-2015 at 07:44 AM.

  12. #4772
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    Looks like we are heading to the third round of the Russo/Ukrainian War in Central Europe--and remember all the glorious words after the Wall fell--no more wars in Europe????? Round one---August 2014, Round two---Nov 2014 to Feb 2015, Round three started five days ago and is increasing in intensity.


    OSCE observers spot #Russia Army insignia in eastern #Ukraine as tension rises:
    http://europe.newsweek.com/observers...n-rises-328255
    pic.twitter.com/BfVCVkbBod

    Terrorists’ tanks fired at civilians in Vodiane and Opytne villages http://24today.net/open/441771

    SMM observed missing heavy weapons in holding areas http://en.censor.net.ua/n339980

    Sad record: #Russia|ns fired 109 times at #Ukraine positions in the last 24 hours.

    Heavy shelling continues last night and this morning. Hot spot #Donetsk + surroundings, #Mariinka. #Trokhizbenka hit by GRAD overnight.

    11:12AM
    Ongoing battle in #Pisky, you can hear heavy guns
    https://twitter.com/062_Region/statu...96920900177920

    There are also a lot if troop movements towards frontline. Examples to follow:

    Towards #Debalsteve:
    https://twitter.com/Guderian_Xaba/st...97730287611904

    Towards #Stanitsya_Luhanska:
    https://twitter.com/Guderian_Xaba/st...76513795072001

    Towards #Mariinka:
    https://twitter.com/ZombieTVonline/s...77535934414848

    #Alchevsk 10:37
    Another column of at least 9 Ural/Kamaz trucks on move on Volgogradskaya str. https://twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/sta...88628903817216

    Towards #Stanitsya_Luhanska:
    https://twitter.com/Guderian_Xaba/st...76513795072001

    More towards #Debalsteve probably: https://twitter.com/Guderian_Xaba/st...02150740086784

    #Donetsk 11:11AM
    Railway station area - heavy gunshots can be heard from #Pisky https://twitter.com/666_mancer/statu...96474357825536

    #Mariinka and #Pisky under constant artillery fire this morning.

  13. #4773
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Moderator at work

    If Outlaw09 is correct and partly cited
    ... the third round of the Russo/Ukrainian War in Central Europe... Round three started five days ago and is increasing in intensity.
    It is time to close SWC's largest ever thread (with 4,772 posts and 152k views) and start a new thread.

    The new title will be Ukraine: Russo-Ukr War Part Three (June 2015 onwards).
    davidbfpo

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