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Thread: Ukraine: military (Aug '14 to mid-June '15) closed

  1. #481
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    Noticed that someone took the time to attempt to analyze the Putin "altered state of reality"---but with Orwell an interesting twist to say the least. Seems I am not the only one saying "altered state of reality" and Putin in the same sentence.

    The article below is really interesting as it does go to the heart of this "altered reality problem" Putin is having--I really do believe he is truly believing his own propaganda which is extremely dangerous.

    Orwell can help us understand what is happening to us as if we make a good-faith effort to use Russian media official sources to try to understand the world. Russian propaganda about Ukraine is today’s doublethink: it requires that people, as Orwell put it, “hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing both of them.” Russian propaganda daily pounds out two sides to every story, both of which are false, and each of which contradicts the other.

    That is why he has not taken any off ramp or exit offered to him by the West--he simply does not "see" them--because in his "altered state" he is in fact "winning".

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...l#.VAg6hWD8JMv

    Core thesis:

    After all, every attempt thus far at negotiation and cease-fire has been accompanied by a Russian escalation, to the point where we can be certain that this is not a coincidence. If Russian President Vladimir Putin meets with other leaders, we must simply expect that this is cover for the latest outrage, as with the entrance of Russian troops, armor and artillery during the recent talks in Minsk.

    But we need to dig a bit deeper into the plot for the three concepts needed to understand this very strange war, in which Putin has radicalized Russian politics, destroyed a European peace order, challenged Europeans’ assumptions about their entire future — and even threatened nuclear war. Every reason proffered to explain a war that is pointless to the point of nihilism is obviously bogus or self-contradictory or both. To grasp this horrible event in which people are killing and dying for no discernible reason, we need to remember some key concepts from Orwell: Eurasia, doublethink and learning to love Big Brother.

    To take these thoughts a step further Putin in his recent school visit and interview basically condemned the Communists and Lenin directly for allowing the Russian Army to fail during WW1.

    An unusual step for a former KGB COL who owed his career to the Communist Party especially since the KGB was "the Sword and Shield of the Party".

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-d...n-disses-lenin

    .
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-04-2014 at 11:56 AM.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    Story about Russian airborne trooper, who played Ukrainian "Berkut" trooper at the time of Crimean referendum.

    http://argumentua.com/tainoe-stanovi...go-referenduma
    It appears from this link that this Russian soldier was in fact Russian SF, was in the Crimea in a Berkut uniform prior to changing into his Russian uniform---article indicates they have found with some ease three other Russian airborne types all wearing Berkut uniforms.

    Begs the question---just how many so called Ukrainian Berkut in and around the Maidan were in fact Russian SF wearing Berkut uniforms and provoking the Maidan crowds with their aggressiveness and shooting of the demonstrators?

    A large number of social media photos of this one Russian soldier.

    http://en.inforesist.org/russian-par...-crimea-photo/

  3. #483
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    Putin and his FM talk about how great the Russian ceasefire plan is but then they still do want to take over the land corridor all the way to Odessa---cutting the Ukraine off from it's sea ports, and building then a land link to the Crimea and the Moldavian enclave.

    This is the "altered state of reality"---talking ceasefire to get NATO/EU to do minimum damage to their economy while driving even further into the Ukraine--all in the same breath.

    NATO seems to now be confirming far higher numbers of Russian troops inside the Ukraine---which is what the Ukraine has been saying since 25 August.

    Breaking News : The battle for Mariupol has started.
    Tanks have left Novoazovsk, there has been fighting half way to Mariupol already. Volunteer battalions responding.

    Confirmation from InfoResist ..
    "Russian troops launched an offensive in the direction of Mariupol "

    BREAKING The #RUS army URAGAN (BM27s) units were spotted in #Taganrog heading straight on #Mariupol.
    https://www.facebook.com/irakli.koma...50772765035973

    pic.twitter.com/zF0PQcbqjl
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-04-2014 at 03:44 PM.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    There is a constant stream of blogging reports and independent journalist bloggers since the 25th of august when the first Russian troops went into the Ukraine of high losses of manpower and high wounded numbers.

    Reports drifted out today of the Russian Rostov military hospital being completely overfilled with wounded and in St. Petersburg there is also no more available hospital beds for the Ukrainian wounded.

    KIA estimates range form 700 just on 25 Aug to now a total nearly 2,000.

    There are confirmed reports that the Russian military has given their Russian commanders in the Ukraine orders to find open plots of land for burial of Russian soldiers in the Ukraine so the bodies do not start showing up in Russia.

    There are unproven reports of Russian military field crematoriums being sent into the Ukraine.

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/0...ive-to-russia/

    Even if the numbers are lower than the reported numbers--it is a remarkable high number for a rag tag regular Army working with independent BNs fighting with less armor and artillery and no aircraft.
    This seems to confirm the existence of mobile Russian military field crematoriums.

    Seems like the Russian Army wants no existence of killed Russian soldiers to make it back to the motherland and their mothers.

    This is #Russian army mobile crematorium brought to #Ukraine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6L0jiMloO8
    http://informnapalm.org/916-armyya-rf-

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    This is the "altered state of reality"---talking ceasefire to get NATO/EU to do minimum damage to their economy while driving even further into the Ukraine--all in the same breath.
    How is that an "altered state of reality" and not realpolitik in its purest form?
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    How is that an "altered state of reality" and not realpolitik in its purest form?
    Then if "realpolitik" then there is no need to negotiate if I recall---as we know the end state---right?

    Here is the current "realpolitik" that does not makes sense;

    1. if the fighting has died down as the UA and independent BNs have all but pulled back as to not be encircled---then why the increased numbers of wounded and killed coming in---who is then doing the fighting?

    Someone or something is causing a high rate of sudden causalities and it is not the Ukrainian Army---rumors have it as Ukrainian SF strikes against lone units not anticipating guerilla style raids.

    BREAKING Since 11:00 fr #Mariupol to #Donetsk hospital local emergency brigades are on constant back-and-forth trips. Seems terrs die easily

    2. if the Russian Army/Russian separatists are so well liked in eastern Ukraine then why do Russian troops at a Luhansk CPs ask those that are leaving to stay and they will get jobs?

    Does that make sense to you and that is another example of "altered state of reality". At the height of the separatist movement Girkin was openly complaining he could not get more than 1000 Ukrainians to fight with him in the separatist movement--thus the heavy reliance on Russian mercenaries and now Russian troops.

    BREAKING #Luhansk CPs are openly manned w #Russian army soldiers. Ask ppl not to leave the city. Promise jobs.

    "Realpolitik" if you are referring to the German term as it was used by Brandt--entails a totally different meaning that just plain being stupid as a foreign policy--this ties into the Russian strategy of "believing one's own propaganda"---always a great idea.

    Let's see;

    1. Putin will have to take care of the south-east region for months/years to come---meaning food, water, jobs and get the electricity and water flowing much like he had to do in the Crimea but now cannot do

    2. he has to get the economy going when he is having problems with that in the Crimea otherwise the locals will truly doubt it was worth it--plus the looting, robbing, killing and torturing by the separatists not the Ukrainian Army has to be explained away as what a separatist strategy in largely ethnic Russian area?

    3. if literally driving the Ukraine out of it's non aligned status and fully into the EU---great goal there

    4. if finally awakening NATO and fully focusing NATO on the from Russian out loud spoken nuclear and UW threats---great move there as well

    5. if convincing most Europeans that Russia cannot be trusted on anything--well another great move

    6. if destroying your own economy is a strategy---massive more on that strategy

    7. having your banking system come to a stand still is what---worth it all?

    8. having the Gazprom delivery contracts openly challenged in court--great move there as well

    So again what do you mean by "realpolitik"? As I see nothing of that in the Russian current strategy---all I see is stupidity caused by an altered state of believing one's own propaganda.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-04-2014 at 05:16 PM.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Then if "realpolitik" then there is no need to negotiate if I recall---as we know the end state---right?

    Here is the current "realpolitik" that does not makes sense;

    1. if the fighting has died down as the UA and independent BNs have all but pulled back as to not be encircled---then why the increased numbers of wounded and killed coming in---who is then doing the fighting?

    Someone or something is causing a high rate of sudden causalities and it is not the Ukrainian Army---rumors have it as Ukrainian SF strikes against lone units not anticipating guerilla style raids.

    BREAKING Since 11:00 fr #Mariupol to #Donetsk hospital local emergency brigades are on constant back-and-forth trips. Seems terrs die easily

    AP--another set of reasons for high losses:

    2. if the Russian Army/Russian separatists are so well liked in eastern Ukraine then why do Russian troops at a Luhansk CPs ask those that are leaving to stay and they will get jobs?

    Does that make sense to you and that is another example of "altered state of reality". At the height of the separatist movement Girkin was openly complaining he could not get more than 1000 Ukrainians to fight with him in the separatist movement--thus the heavy reliance on Russian mercenaries and now Russian troops.

    BREAKING #Luhansk CPs are openly manned w #Russian army soldiers. Ask ppl not to leave the city. Promise jobs.

    "Realpolitik" if you are referring to the German term as it was used by Brandt--entails a totally different meaning that just plain being stupid as a foreign policy--this ties into the Russian strategy of "believing one's own propaganda"---always a great idea.

    Let's see;

    1. Putin will have to take care of the south-east region for months/years to come---meaning food, water, jobs and get the electricity and water flowing much like he had to do in the Crimea but now cannot do

    2. he has to get the economy going when he is having problems with that in the Crimea otherwise the locals will truly doubt it was worth it--plus the looting, robbing, killing and torturing by the separatists not the Ukrainian Army has to be explained away as what a separatist strategy in largely ethnic Russian area?

    3. if literally driving the Ukraine out of it's non aligned status and fully into the EU---great goal there

    4. if finally awakening NATO and fully focusing NATO on the from Russian out loud spoken nuclear and UW threats---great move there as well

    5. if convincing most Europeans that Russia cannot be trusted on anything--well another great move

    6. if destroying your own economy is a strategy---massive more on that strategy

    7. having your banking system come to a stand still is what---worth it all?

    8. having the Gazprom delivery contracts openly challenged in court--great move there as well

    So again what do you mean by "realpolitik"? As I see nothing of that in the Russian current strategy---all I see is stupidity caused by an altered state of believing one's own propaganda.
    AP--here is a partial answer to the high rate of losses and wounded on the Russian side--the reports of this particular battle indicated from Russian propaganda side a humiliating loss for the Ukrainians and Russian TV was there live---then this today.

    BREAKING Reports coming@ #Ilovaisk fields are littered w bodies of tank &scout unit fr #RUS 9th Vislenskaya SOF ОМСБр
    pic.twitter.com/

    More losses to explain the high rates:

    BREAKING Today fr #Ilovaisk 800 dead bodies of #Russian army VDV soldiers has been collected. This was suppose to have been a major defeat for the Ukrainians--they had only 100 KIAs and 120 POWs

    In this week alone 30 #Russian army soldiers fr #Kostroma got killed in war activities in #Ukraine
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-04-2014 at 05:29 PM.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    Then if "realpolitik" then there is no need to negotiate if I recall---as we know the end state---right?
    Whoever said that realpolitik does not include negotiations when negotiations achieve the interests of the state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    "Realpolitik" if you are referring to the German term as it was used by Brandt--entails a totally different meaning that just plain being stupid as a foreign policy.
    If Russia has material interests, and if its actions achieve those material interests, then how is its foreign policy "stupid"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    1. Putin will have to take care of the south-east region for months to come---meaning food, water, jobs and get the electricity and water flowing much like he had to do in the Crimea but now cannot do
    I'm fairly confident the Russians have already considered this; hence their reluctance to outright occupy or annex the region in the first place. And since the region is still de jure a part of Ukraine, it will legally be Kiev's responsibility to manage the problem, and the Russians I'm sure won't have any issues in offering their aid and advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    2. he has to get the economy going when he is having problems with that in the Crimea otherwise the locals will truly doubt it was worth it--plus the looting, robbing, killing and torturing by the separatists not the Ukrainian Army
    Why do you assume that the local population will blame Moscow and not Kiev for their problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    3. if literally driving the Ukraine out of it's non aligned status and fully into the EU---great goal there
    That remains to be seen - there's a wide gulf between potential and performance. Ukraine is not in the political or security situation to join EU or NATO without serious internal turmoil. And if a third of the country is occupied by the Russian army, NATO won't be inclined to invite Ukraine into the organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    4. if finally awakening NATO and fully focusing NATO on the from Russian out loud spoken nuclear threats---great move there as well
    Russia wants to be recognized as a great power, so how is that a criticism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    5. if convincing most Europeans that Russia cannot be trusted on anything--well another great move
    What does trust have to do with realpolitik? The fundamental problem in international security is that there is no trust, and that the actions and statements of other states cannot be validated. And this is clearly evident in Russia's consistent distrust in the intentions of NATO since the collapse of the USSR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    So again what do you mean by "realpolitik"? As I see nothing of that in the Russian current strategy.
    Of course you don't - you've been on an anti-Russian screed since the start of the crisis. Sure - Russia's behavior is not in the best interest of the U.S., but that does not mean that Russian leaders are living in an "altered state of reality" or that they are "irrational". Ignoring the facts that Russian elites do have goals, and have tied specific strategies and resources to these goals, is an "altered state of reality" that serves no useful purpose.
    Last edited by AmericanPride; 09-04-2014 at 05:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Whoever said that realpolitik does not include negotiations when negotiations achieve the interests of the state?
    Then AP you are fully aware of what is going on inside the combat zones right now---and yes in the towns and villages still under UA control after retaking them---even the ethnic Russians were happy to see them..

    You have got to get out more often.

    If I recall correctly you were the one appealing for "understanding Russian concerns and for totally negotiating correct---and what has that gotten you?

    So with six off ramps for Putin---and he is still attacking the Ukraine and funneling in more troops and equipment and what has negotiations gotten you?

    Does it honestly strike you Putin even wants an off ramp?

    You do remember I stated a number of times he is coming across the border--that much was clear from his Duma speech if you took the time to reread it---all there to be fully understood.

    Your not making much sense.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 09-04-2014 at 06:44 PM. Reason: fix quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW
    So with six off ramps for Putin---and he is still attacking the Ukraine and funneling in more troops and equipment and what has negotiations gotten you?
    Right - because the alternative to continued Russian escalation is what exactly? On the one hand you are claiming that Putin is an "altered state of reality" and is "irrational" but then on the other, you are condemning him for not making what you think is a rational decision to comply with Western demands. How much sense does that make???

    If Putin is irrational and lives in an "altered state of reality", why do you think sanctions or military escalation by the West would produce predictable results or de-escalation? You seem most frustrated that Putin is not behaving in the way that you desire.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Interesting article from the National Interest on Chinese perceptions of the Ukraine crisis:

    With respect to Moscow’s ultimate aims in the current crisis, Colonel Fang seems to believe that Russia has seized Crimea as a “bargaining chip.” He suggests that the ultimate resolution of the crisis might be for the Crimea’s status to resemble that of South Ossetia (formally separate from the Russian Federation, but enjoying a high level of autonomy within a neighboring country). In an apparent expression of support for Russian actions, Colonel Fang asks that given the power vacuum in Kiev, “… who can say what is legal?” In addition, he writes: “[The Ukrainian opposition] … went too far … not anticipating that Russia would have such an intense reaction.”
    For Colonel Fang, Russia has the initiative. The U.S. lacks military options, and “Russia does not fear,” according to this Chinese analysis. Russia’s “actual control” over Crimea is a decisive factor in the present crisis that the Chinese have not missed. True, some other Chinese analysts have been more circumspect, pointing to the prospect of major losses to the Russian economy (国际问题研究, April 2014), but many others, such as a Xinhua Russian expert writing in May 2014, seem to follow Colonel Fang’s interpretation and admire “Russia’s rejection of the West’s global leadership, its defense of its core interests, and its lack of hesitation in becoming the enemy of the West.”
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    AP--here is a partial answer to the high rate of losses and wounded on the Russian side--the reports of this particular battle indicated from Russian propaganda side a humiliating loss for the Ukrainians and Russian TV was there live---then this today.

    BREAKING Reports coming@ #Ilovaisk fields are littered w bodies of tank &scout unit fr #RUS 9th Vislenskaya SOF ОМСБр
    pic.twitter.com/

    More losses to explain the high rates:

    BREAKING Today fr #Ilovaisk 800 dead bodies of #Russian army VDV soldiers has been collected. This was suppose to have been a major defeat for the Ukrainians--they had only 100 KIAs and 120 POWs

    In this week alone 30 #Russian army soldiers fr #Kostroma got killed in war activities in #Ukraine

    AP--see this is why you do not know what is going on inside the combat zones---right now there is a brutal Ukrainian SF guerrilla war--ie ambushing on lone Russian units as they are not massed as they would normally be in a more conventional war with tank on tank but rather spread out across the countryside.

    Especially their fuel trucks and supply convoys.

    Video: #Russian army vehicles burning bright @ #Mariupol on September 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgvHYuhOCzA

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    AP--see this is why you do not know what is going on inside the combat zones---right now there is a brutal Ukrainian SF guerrilla war--ie ambushing on lone Russian units as they are not massed as they would normally be in a more conventional war with tank on tank but rather spread out across the countryside.

    Especially their fuel trucks and supply convoys.

    Video: #Russian army vehicles burning bright @ #Mariupol on September 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgvHYuhOCzA
    That's great. Please elaborate on how that's relevant to terminating the conflict and shaping the political outcome. You know, like you predicted with the downing of the Malaysian airliner...
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    That's great. Please elaborate on how that's relevant to terminating the conflict and shaping the political outcome. You know, like you predicted with the downing of the Malaysian airliner...
    AP--you do realize what happened in Chechnya right when Russian military units flattened complete villages and towns via shelling---you don remember that right?

    Battalion "#Azov" informs #Russian army over 5 hours straight shelled #Shyrokyne village. Purely civilian village. Many many houses gone.

    This is the third Ukrainian town flattened since the Russian Army opened the southern front and yet you talk about what negotiations?

    Right now the only thing that Putin is desperately trying to avoid is the mounting number of killed Russian soldiers becoming known within Russia ---and it is slowly getting out.

    And that is what some Ukrainian units are contributing towards---a higher Russian toll in order to drive that message home inside Russia.

    And based on the panic actions of the FSB on the social media side the FSB is losing that fight to the blogging community.

    Call it the Ukrainian "realpolitik".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    AP--you do realize what happened in Chechnya right when Russian military units flattened complete villages and towns via shelling---you don remember that right?
    Remind me again when the Chechen Republic achieved independence from Russia...
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Remind me again when the Chechen Republic achieved independence from Russia...
    Remind me of just how many civilians died at the hands of the Russian Army.

    I am giving you the benefit of the doubt---doubt seriously you have read the NATO/Russian Founding Agreements--right--you do know that Russia is in violation of those agreement right?

    Taking you back to Chechnya and the shelling of towns and villages by Russian troops.

    Take note--the videos and photos are now coming in:

    #BreakingNews Nonstop Russian army artillery shelling hitting #Mariupol now.

    Remember I said

    1) he would cross--he did
    2. he needs a land corridor to the Crimea from the Moldavian enclave--that is where the Russian Army is now headed--Odessa next stop.

    This idea of "poor mistreated ethnic Russians" has been a smoke screen all along---he needs the entire Black Sea coast line for the wealth of oil and gas there and to effectively cut the Ukraine off from the sea thus making the Ukraine dependent on Russia for their exports and it gives him then his "buffer" that you claim the West does not get all the way to Kaliningrad.

    And it gives him his Russian empire--which is where his head is as he is really a neo imperialist at heart---especially a former KGB COL who seems to be able to critique even Lenin for being wrong in 1918.

    AP--think wider---you are to focused on the minuet picture.

    But then that comes from not traveling much.

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    AP---more Ukrainian "realpolitik" being sent back to Russia.

    Four Russian tanks crews destroyed with their tanks in the attack on Mariupol.

    4 #Russian tank crews burned in & soldiers (from Russian Army unit 54046) fr в/ч 54046 Нижний Новгород/Дзержинск (9 отдельная мотострелковая бригада) KIA
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-04-2014 at 06:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    AP--think wider---you are to focused on the minuet picture.
    This is coming from the poster who spams the forum with the movement updates of each Russian tank every five minutes?

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    This idea of "poor mistreated ethnic Russians" has been a smoke screen all along
    This is already well-known. It also implies that Russian elites are not "irrational" as you claim since they are deliberately using a ploy to deceive their adversaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    he needs the entire Black Sea coast line for the wealth of oil and gas there and to effectively cut the Ukraine off from the sea thus making the Ukraine dependent on Russia for their exports and it gives him then his "buffer" that you claim the West does not get all the way to Kaliningrad.
    That does not sound like an irrational actor at all. You have identified motive, means, and opportunity. Please explain again how Russia's activity is "irrational". It's also the Russians that claim they need a buffer - so perhaps you should take stock of what others are actually saying rather than projecting your own mentality on them and then critiquing them for acting differently from you. That'd be a great place to start your analysis.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    [QUOTE=AmericanPride;160874]This is coming from the poster who spams the forum with the movement updates of each Russian tank every five minutes?


    AP--and this is what Russia "realpolitik" ----come on AP you were the one that stated "we must understand the Russia side and we must negotiate"---how did that go for you?

    And you are still stating negotiate---have you even read anything mentioned here in the last six months?

    UKRAINE TODAY @uatodaytv

    #Gazprom Production Plummets: Russian state gas giant hit by #ukrainecrisis http://youtu.be/J47pjMFHBbE

    Let's see your what your comment on buffer entails---the last time I checked the Russians do not need a buffer for the following reasons that they themselves have stated since 2012--so again you fail to actually "understand them yourself".

    1. have your read their 2012 nuclear strategy which entails first strike tactical use of nuclear weapons
    2. the Russian military with Putin watched practiced last month a tactical nuclear strike on Poland and the Baltics---let's see during the Crimea a high level Duma rep threatened to nuke the West
    3. they have violated the INF to give themselves nuclear long distance cruise missile abilities and then when caught at it claimed they might leave the treaty

    The list can go on if you would like but then you have already read their nuclear doctrine right.

    So if I threaten to use first strike tactical nuclear weapons then just why do I assume I need a buffer---does that make sense to you?

    But again you seem to want to "understand" but that requires fully "understanding" exactly word for word they have released since 2012 does it not?

    Then just maybe you can understand the concept of "altered state of reality" but then you did not read the Politico article did you?

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    [QUOTE=OUTLAW 09;160875]
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    This is coming from the poster who spams the forum with the movement updates of each Russian tank every five minutes?


    AP--and this is what Russia "realpolitik" ----come on AP you were the one that stated "we must understand the Russia side and we must negotiate"---how did that go for you?

    And you are still stating negotiate---have you even read anything mentioned here in the last six months?

    UKRAINE TODAY @uatodaytv

    #Gazprom Production Plummets: Russian state gas giant hit by #ukrainecrisis http://youtu.be/J47pjMFHBbE

    Let's see your what your comment on buffer entails---the last time I checked the Russians do not need a buffer for the following reasons that they themselves have stated since 2012--so again you fail to actually "understand them yourself".

    1. have your read their 2012 nuclear strategy which entails first strike tactical use of nuclear weapons
    2. the Russian military with Putin watched practiced last month a tactical nuclear strike on Poland and the Baltics---let's see during the Crimea a high level Duma rep threatened to nuke the West
    3. they have violated the INF to give themselves nuclear long distance cruise missile abilities and then when caught at it claimed they might leave the treaty

    The list can go on if you would like but then you have already read their nuclear doctrine right.

    So if I threaten to use first strike tactical nuclear weapons then just why do I assume I need a buffer---does that make sense to you?

    But again you seem to want to "understand" but that requires fully "understanding" exactly word for word they have released since 2012 does it not?

    Then just maybe you can understand the concept of "altered state of reality" but then you did not read the Politico article did you?
    Then again AP--let's look at your "buffer concept"--if you had been ever in the GDR during the 80s you would have seen for yourself that in order to attack Russia via an land attack the Germans would have to drive what about seven hours in a normal car travelling 120kms per hour JUST to get to Kiev--not even the Russian border---now translate that into tank time ---what about five days to make the seven hours--of course one could rail them but that would alert the Russians to a possible land attack sine they have as many recon satellites as we do these days.

    So the idea of a say the Ukraine as a "sphere of influence" buffer zone makes about as much sense as a drop of water in the Mojave desert--but again that is your thinking not mine.

    Let's see about the idea that the Kazahkstan was never a country and has Russians living in it being inside this "Russian sphere of influence".

    Putin's statements not mine---so who is going to attack the Russian empire via Kazahkstan?

    Let's see--the Baltics as a Russian "sphere of influence" buffer zone--they are so small width wise I am not sure just what kind of buffer that would be and since one can see literally across the Baltics--a ground attack against Russia would be seen any time night or day--not sure what Navy could currently pull off a landing invasion as well.

    AP--you do realize just how ludicrous the idea in the 21st century is concerning the concept of "buffer zones are needed to avoid a ground attack"--right?

    AP--you do realize that the term "spheres of influence" especially in Europe came out of Yalta and disappeared fully 25 years ago when the Wall came down--right?

    So yes I fully understand the Russia line of argumentation but in the 21st century one would think Russian leaders would spend more time in figuring out how to improve the Russian standard of living not chasing a neo imperialistic dreams of the old Russian Empire than trying to figure out just how much land is needed between them and some alleged possible maybe sometime in the future land invasion.

    So what is your explanation of the Russian need for a "buffer"? Once you have one--then explain it to NATO.

    By the way if I were Putin I would spend far more time in figuring out my Islamist problems than worrying about the Ukrainians because longer term the Russian Islamist problems are far more threatening to Putin than the Ukrainians will ever be.

    You have read the daily Interfax releases concerning the constant fighting between the Islamists and the GRU/FSB---right AP?
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-04-2014 at 07:27 PM.

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