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Thread: Ukraine: military (Aug '14 to mid-June '15) closed

  1. #621
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    AP--you speak of drones---so do you fully understand that Russia "views" US drones as being a violation of the INF?---not sure if you would agree that a Reaper or Pred can carry nuclear weapons but somehow the Russians think so.
    And this is the crux of your problem. You (possibily intentionally) take a misreading of other people's words, statements, meanings, and definitions. And then, further, you attempt to critique or dismiss the other's statements on the basis of your own misreading. Your 'arguments' consist mostly of straw man constructions and ad hominen attacks, combined with a toxic dose of other fallacies. When I said 'drones', what indication did I give that I meant unmanned aerial vehicles?

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    More Russian fascism info to bring you up to date---and yet you dismissed 1984 as applying---strange move on that comment.
    Because - again - this would be a misreading of 1984.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    AP--another article this time from July 2014--that should expand your views on what is driving Putin and "it ain't NATO expansionism" as is claimed by Putin so often.
    Nothing in that article contradicts the assertion that NATO expansionism is perceived as national security threat by Russia.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    AP---another Russian "doublethink"--or "altered state of reality.

    "Doublethink"--the ability to say two completely different thoughts and yet still believe both of them.

    US bombing on IS in Syria would be considered an act of aggression but what the sending of 15,000 Russian troops and heavy weapons into the Ukraine and the downing of MH17 by Russia AD missile troops on Ukrainian soli is what?

    Oh wait they were on vacation and or defense contractors and that does not count as an "official Russian act of aggression"?

    Come on AP---even you have to see now the "doublethink" in action.

    From Interfax this evening:
    Moscow would take U.S. airstrikes on Syria without Damascus' consent as aggression - Foreign Ministry (Part 2)

    MOSCOW. Sept 11 (Interfax) - The U.S.' possible airstrikes on positions of terrorists from the Islamic State in Syria without Damascus' consent and without UN Security Council sanction would constitute an act of aggression against the country, Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Lukashevich said.

    Notice AP the "doublethink" in this sentence---we Russia can send Russian military vacationers and actual Russian troops into the Ukraine without asking permission BUT you the US cannot.

    "The U.S. president has declared directly that the American armed forces could strike the Islamic State's positions on Syrian territory without the legitimate government's consent. Such a step in the absence of a UN Security Council decision would be an act of aggression and a gross violation of international law," Lukashevich said at a news conference in Moscow in reply to a question from Interfax.

    Now AP think this sentence structure through---we can shot down civilian airliners, we can declare eastern Ukraine "New Russia", we can send Russian troops as vacationers all without the UNSC BUT You the US need UNSC approval for your actions (but whoa not Russia)---come again AP even you can see the disconnect ie "altered state of reality".

    "There are reasons to presume that Syrian government forces could also be exposed to the strikes in this case, with all the ensuing grave consequences in terms of the further escalation of tensions," he said.

    AP--surprised Russia did not make this same argument over the Ukraine--wonder what Ukrainian soldiers would say about Russian shooting and killing them inside their own country---se AP the "doublethink"?

    Moscow supports the fact that the U.S., which turned a blind eye to actions of radical elements in Syria for a long time, expecting to use them to overthrow the legitimate government in Damascus, has finally realized the scope of the calamity that has engulfed virtually the entire Middle Eastern region, he said.

    "In our view, what is worse is that Washington still cannot discard its own double standards in trying to substitute truly collective actions in combating international terrorism by such dubious maneuvers, which reveal quite a significant ideological and confrontational tint," Lukashevich said.

    AP--and this is not what Russia is doing in the Ukraine with their idea of "New Russia"?

    "By helping the Iraqi government oppose the Islamists, Barack Obama at the same time once again asks the U.S. Congress to allocate $500 million in support for the Syrian armed opposition, which, frankly speaking, differs little in general from the Islamic State radicals," he said.

    Any actions against the terrorist group Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant on Syrian territory should be taken only with the official authorities' consent, he said.

    So AP--the support AP of mercenaries and Russian volunteers and the sending of tanks and artillery into the easern Ukraine is what ---can only be taken with official authorities consent--notice AP the "doublethink" in this sentence"

    "It is the Syrian government's legitimate condition that any actions against the Islamic State on the republic's territory be taken with the Syrian government's consent and in compliance with international law, primarily the norms that stipulate sovereignty and territorial integrity," Lukashevich said.

    AP take note of this "doublethink" statement--once you fully understand the technique it is really easy to follow Putin's thinking.

    "Without these approaches, any attempts to deliver strikes will be taken only as a direct act of aggression," he said.

    NOW AP this is a very interesting statement from one country to another country---SINCE when can Russia take the actions of another country defending itself against a known identified threat not using boots on the ground AS AN ACT of AGGRESSION?

    So is Putin really saying---hands off Syria is a protector of Russia?

    THEN why does Russia accuse the US of aggression on one hand and yet in the face of what the Ukraine would definitely perceive as open ended Russian aggression--Russia is silent.

    "Doublethink, doublethink, doublethink"
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-11-2014 at 09:01 PM.

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    After Russia's FM declared that any US bombings in Syria of IS positions would be "aggression"--still not sure why they think they can declare war over attacks on Islamists when they themselves are killing an average of 10-15 Islamists a week in their own southern regions--but anyway.

    So today the Russia FM continues their declarations---this time towards the entire EU:

    From Interfax:

    MFA Russia: EU leaders "need to give a clear answer to their citizens as to why they are putting them under the risk of confrontation.

    "Risk of confrontation" means what?---surely it does not mean the actions Russia has taken in the Crimea and south eastern Ukraine are not certainly
    "risks of confrontation".

    More "doublethink" statements as part and parcel of their info war activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    After Russia's FM declared that any US bombings in Syria of IS positions would be "aggression"--still not sure why they think they can declare war over attacks on Islamists when they themselves are killing an average of 10-15 Islamists a week in their own southern regions--but anyway.

    So today the Russia FM continues their declarations---this time towards the entire EU:

    From Interfax:

    MFA Russia: EU leaders "need to give a clear answer to their citizens as to why they are putting them under the risk of confrontation.

    "Risk of confrontation" means what?---surely it does not mean the actions Russia has taken in the Crimea and south eastern Ukraine are not certainly
    "risks of confrontation".

    More "doublethink" statements as part and parcel of their info war activities.
    And the "confrontation" is forming---Russian troop withdrawals totally stopped today which meant in the first place it was all "show" in order to stop the proposed EU sanctions which did not work so back to the Russian Plan A "New Russia".


    NSDC of Ukraine @NSDC_ua

    Russian troops and military units stopped withdrawal from Ukrainian territory, RF army concentration reported in areas of Donetsk region


    @Ukrainian_State Putin is actually using the same methods that Eltsine in Georgia (1st intervention) or in Transnistria

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    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Outlaw -

    Poroshenko said today that negotiations is the way out of the crisis for Ukraine. Is he also living in an "altered state of reality"? He also proposed decentralizing some of Ukraine's powers as a concession to the opposition - does that make him a Russian puppet? 'Come on' outlaw.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    And the "confrontation" is forming---Russian troop withdrawals totally stopped today which meant in the first place it was all "show" in order to stop the proposed EU sanctions which did not work so back to the Russian Plan A "New Russia".
    Or it means Russian troop levels are at the minimum level perceived necessary by Moscow to maintain its gains while the political process moves forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    "Doublethink"--the ability to say two completely different thoughts and yet still believe both of them.
    'Doublethink' has nothing to do with saying anything at all. The term is 'doublethink' not 'doublespeak'. And saying contradictory statements is a regular practice in politics in all places and all levels. So - how is Russian political speak uniquely objectionable?
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Outlaw -

    Poroshenko said today that negotiations is the way out of the crisis for Ukraine. Is he also living in an "altered state of reality"? He also proposed decentralizing some of Ukraine's powers as a concession to the opposition - does that make him a Russian puppet? 'Come on' outlaw.



    Or it means Russian troop levels are at the minimum level perceived necessary by Moscow to maintain its gains while the political process moves forward.



    'Doublethink' has nothing to do with saying anything at all. The term is 'doublethink' not 'doublespeak'. And saying contradictory statements is a regular practice in politics in all places and all levels.




    So - how is Russian political speak uniquely objectionable?


    Because AP it is done in the realm of an "altered state of reality" which is based on their own propaganda which they have internalized and believe--actually if your fully understood fascism that is one of the characteristics of a "fascist" state. But again you did not read 1984 did you?

    An "altered state of reality" actually means one is not capable of fully recognizing true realty when it stares one in the face and that coupled with a very loose nuclear tongue right now is dangerous and we worry about IS in Syria and Iraq---second rate compared to a nuclear threat

    Let's see if the OFAC sanctions are correct then Russia got hit today that will in effect truly damage their economy and what is the response from Putin"

    Here is a great example again for you to think about.

    Putin's first response to new EU/US sanctions is to say: "the fewer government officials go abroad, the better"

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/749322

    I will give a simple response---what the heck (WTH) is that from a leader of an alleged "superpower"?
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-12-2014 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Outlaw -

    Poroshenko said today that negotiations is the way out of the crisis for Ukraine. Is he also living in an "altered state of reality"? He also proposed decentralizing some of Ukraine's powers as a concession to the opposition - does that make him a Russian puppet? 'Come on' outlaw.



    Or it means Russian troop levels are at the minimum level perceived necessary by Moscow to maintain its gains while the political process moves forward.



    'Doublethink' has nothing to do with saying anything at all. The term is 'doublethink' not 'doublespeak'. And saying contradictory statements is a regular practice in politics in all places and all levels. So - how is Russian political speak uniquely objectionable?
    AP this is a perfect example of your not understanding what you read and or write and that is not so good these days if you are a commenter.

    The definition of "doublespeak" is as follows:

    Doublespeak is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words. Doublespeak may take the form of euphemisms (e.g., "downsizing" for layoffs, "servicing the target" for bombing[1]), in which case it is primarily meant to make the truth sound more palatable. It may also refer to intentional ambiguity in language or to actual inversions of meaning (for example, naming a state of war "peace"). In such cases, doublespeak disguises the nature of the truth.

    NOTICE the way you infer it's use and or my mis-use is exactly what the definition states.

    BUT this is what I originally wrote and you absolutely paid no attention to it and if you had then you would have fully understood my use of the term "an altered state of reality" which is based on believing one's own propaganda.

    "Doublethink"---is nothing more or less that stating two completely different thoughts, statements and or sentences AND (this is what you missed AP) ACTUALLY believing both thoughts, statement, sentences.T

    That is exactly how in the RIA press release from the Russian FM concerning US aggression in Syria the FM is able to make two completely different concepts jell in a statement and fully believes both of them.

    I could if you want take literally statement for statement from either Putin and or his FM and show you exactly how "doublethink" works.

    Next time AP get at least the usage of terms correct. But then again you dismissed the Yale Professors article and 1984 as what "fiction"?

    Where "doublethink" is not being seen nor heard is when a Russian neo Nazi or as they themselves call themselves "nationalists" or "ultra nationalists" or outright "fascists" cuts loose then--- it is actually hard core polemic built on hatred and racism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    Because AP it is done in the realm of an "altered state of reality" which is based on their own propaganda which they have internalized and believe--actually if your fully understood fascism that is one of the characteristics of a "fascist" state.
    Actually that is not a characteristic of a fascist state. Some might argue that's a characteristic of all states. And some others would argue that's what said (the 'propaganda') is less important than what's done.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    An "altered state of reality" actually means one is not capable of fully recognizing true realty
    Now you're getting into ontology. I would strongly recommend against staking out an ontological position for political purposes. As evidenced by your posts, this often produces arguments that prove too much and that are logically inconsistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    That is exactly how in the RIA press release from the Russian FM concerning US aggression in Syria the FM is able to make two completely different concepts jell in a statement and fully believes both of them.
    You cannot possibly know what the Russian FM "fully believes". And given the highly politicized context, it would be very difficult for you to establish what the Russian FM actually, personally believes. What he believes in his personal capacity and what he states in his professional capacity are totally separate and independent things. That political officials frequently contradict themselves is not surprising and it's also not a relevant critique of Russian policies since - guess what - this is not a uniquely Russian behavior. This is again a case of you playing fast and loose with definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    But then again you dismissed the Yale Professors article and 1984 as what "fiction"?
    When did I "dismiss" the article as "fiction"? Oh - that's right - you are making things up again. By the way - how about you read actual analysis of fascism rather than relying on your misinterpretations of fictional works that are critiques of communism?

    And your opinion on the Ukrainian president stating that negotiations are the only way to resolve the conflict, and his willingness to make concessions to the separatists? Still waiting on that.
    Last edited by AmericanPride; 09-12-2014 at 05:26 PM.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    AP----

    Here is an excellent example of "doublethink"---Putin claims in a public statement there are no Russian military troops inside the Ukraine and in the same statement states the Ukraine is a junta led government and is not democratic.

    In the West we 1) laugh and say yes there are Russian troops in the Ukraine and 2) the Ukraine has a President via democratic elections.

    Putin though in his mind is totally correct in both his statements--remember I mentioned that Russia places a great deal of "faith" in legality. So therefore Russia soldiers who have signed a "contract" and or "vacation paperwork" would not be an "illegal or false statement" in Putin's mind and in fact is not a lie or a deliberate misstatement.

    To us we think in the end he is just using a "plausible deniability" ploy or we would argue once a soldier-even outside the uniform always a soldier.

    Secondly, in his mind he does not see the Maidan as a "legal" representation of the opinion of the Ukrainian people who elected another President (who even Putin stated kind of overreached in his stealing from the people who elected him in the first place) and who was then "overthrown" and in Putin speak via a "putsch/junta" and he "sees" the active participation of his worst nightmare the Ukrainian neo right (Right Sector) who he equates with Nazi's fighting in the Maidan and supporting the "putschists" then that is proof enough for his mind. See again just how the Russians hang on the concept of "legality"?

    We would on the other side state the former President was a thief and the "people spoke" and in their own Parliament they voted him out "legally" from a Ukrainian perspective.

    So in the end Putin makes two completely different statements in public and we "think" he is another world--but in his own mind he fully believes both statements to be in fact totally true.

    Now the kicker-many of Putin's statements and thoughts are in fact driven by propaganda and if I had the time and the efforts to do it one can find the supporting propaganda released via their TV or news agencies to match the statement.

    That is the core problem with a "fascist" state that is and was built on over 70 years of propaganda--it becomes mainstream and believed to be always the truth.

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    Outlaw -

    In order for you to prove that Putin is exercising 'doublethink', you would have to establish that Putin personally simultaneously believes that (1) Russian soldiers are in Ukraine and (2) that Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine. It does not matter how 'soldier' is defined because that definition would have to be applicable in both cases for the statements to be contradictory. So - if we exclude 'soldiers' out of uniform for example, then you have to ask: does Putin simultaneously believe that Russian soldiers out of uniform are in Ukraine and that Russian soldiers out of uniform are not in Ukraine?

    This is where your argument becomes non-sensical. The presence of the soldiers, however defined, in Ukraine is what gives Russia the leverage it requires in securing its gains in the political process. The Russians know this - it's probably why they sent the soldiers in the first place... That they're making deceptive comments about it is not an indicator of doublethink. It's an indicator that the Russians are political.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    So in the end Putin makes two completely different statements in public and we "think" he is another world--but in his own mind he fully believes both statements to be in fact totally true.
    Does he in fact "in his own mind" fully believe both statements? Or are you assuming this based upon your specific interpretation(s) of Russian behavior?

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    Now the kicker-many of Putin's statements and thoughts are in fact driven by propaganda and if I had the time and the efforts to do it one can find the supporting propaganda released via their TV or news agencies to match the statement.
    That there is a relationship between a public official's comments and that public official's government's media organs comments is not a surprise nor an indicator of anything beyond an organized information strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    That is the core problem with a "fascist" state that is and was built on over 70 years of propaganda--it becomes mainstream and believed to be always the truth.
    That's the problem with mass media in general.

    So - once again - Ukrainian President. His pursuit of negotiations and compromise. Your thoughts? Go.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Outlaw -

    In order for you to prove that Putin is exercising 'doublethink', you would have to establish that Putin personally simultaneously believes that (1) Russian soldiers are in Ukraine and (2) that Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine. It does not matter how 'soldier' is defined because that definition would have to be applicable in both cases for the statements to be contradictory. So - if we exclude 'soldiers' out of uniform for example, then you have to ask: does Putin simultaneously believe that Russian soldiers out of uniform are in Ukraine and that Russian soldiers out of uniform are not in Ukraine?

    This is where your argument becomes non-sensical. The presence of the soldiers, however defined, in Ukraine is what gives Russia the leverage it requires in securing its gains in the political process. The Russians know this - it's probably why they sent the soldiers in the first place... That they're making deceptive comments about it is not an indicator of doublethink. It's an indicator that the Russians are political.



    Does he in fact "in his own mind" fully believe both statements? Or are you assuming this based upon your specific interpretation(s) of Russian behavior?



    That there is a relationship between a public official's comments and that public official's government's media organs comments is not a surprise nor an indicator of anything beyond an organized information strategy.



    That's the problem with mass media in general.

    So - once again - Ukrainian President. His pursuit of negotiations and compromise. Your thoughts? Go.
    Here is again your core problem---here is the 75th shoe that dropped that Russian troops are physically inside the Ukraine BTR 80 with the Russian military blue peacekeepers emblem on the front of the armored vehicle.

    https://twitter.com/MiddleEast_BRK/s...56067634249728

    See AP--this simple photo in fact proves exactly what you claim cannot be .

    Putin in fact states there are no troops by his "legal" definition of what a Russian soldier is and when confronted with this photo he would state where is the Russia uniformed soldier?--you can spin all day long how you like it to be.

    The President---ah the President--all he is trying to do is to slow down Putin to give time for the Ukrainian Army to reposition itself and he fully understands he has lost the south east as he knows NATO will not come in at all---the most he is hoping for is new anti air and anti tank weapons as a chance to freeze the Russian moves at the borders of "New Russia".

    The UA has been fighting rather well but have been run over by the Russian heavy tanks and BM27/30s because they have no anti tank abilities- and really heavy artillery--there is some fear that Russia is positioning itself for airstrikes thus the need for anti air weapons as well.

    In some aspects there is some talk about ditching the entire Donbas and allowing Russia to pick up the rebuilding cost but that would cut the western Ukraine from any Black Sea port thus the decision to stand and fight at Mariupol and Odessa which is where the UA has heavily repositioned itself towards.

    But right now the President cannot sell the idea of ditching the Donbas to western Ukraine due to their heavy fighting and current loses---maybe at some point down the road but not now.

    There is also serious concern that Russia is making their move in the coming few days as the EU Assoc is to be signed on 16 Sept and goes into effect on 1 Nov and Putin has to make his moves right before that if he is going to stop the Ukraine from going over to the EU which is the supposed reason at all for his actions in the Crimea and Ukraine.--meaning his perceived anger at EU/NATO moves on the Ukraine.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-12-2014 at 07:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    Here is again your core problem---here is the 75th shoe that dropped that Russian troops are physically inside the Ukraine BTR 80 with the Russian military blue peacekeepers emblem on the front of the armored vehicle.

    https://twitter.com/MiddleEast_BRK/s...56067634249728

    See AP--this simple photo in fact proves exactly what you claim cannot be .
    Please quote me where I stated Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Please quote me where I stated Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine.
    AP--one of the better explanations of Russian goals in the Ukraine and fully explained by one that should know.



    Print Friendly





    Staunton, September 12 – Konstantin Zatulin, the director of the Russian Institute for CIS Countries, has bluntly described Moscow’s war aims in Ukraine as directed toward the establishment of complete control over Ukraine’s foreign and domestic policies and a privileged position in that country for the Russian language and the Moscow Patriarchate.

    Speaking in Sevastopol in Russian-occupied Crimea earlier this week, Zatulin said that Moscow’s policy toward Ukraine rests on three “main principles,” all of which taken together would reduce to almost nothing Ukraine’s ability to act in any way independently from what the Russian Federation wants.

    First of all, the Moscow politician said, “Ukraine must become a federative state.” That is because “the eastern subjects” of such a federation “where people speak Russian and have their own relationship to history will always be a guarantee for Russia that Ukraine will not be able to adopt anti-Russian positions.”

    Moreover, he continued, “the federalization of Ukraine will give Moscow a voice in the internal affairs [of Ukraine] via [its influence in these] eastern regions.”

    Second, Zatulin continued, Russian must become a state language in Ukraine not only because of the presence of Russian speakers in that country but because “it is impossible to be an anti-Russian state with Russian as a state language.”

    And third, he added, Moscow will not allow a split in the Russian Orthodox Church between Ukrainians and Russians because “the very fact that people go to one church plays an enormous role and will not allow for bloodletting.”

    According to Zatulin, “the most immediate tasks” of the Russian authorities are not to allow the formation of any alliance in Ukraine directed against Moscow. Whether the West or Ukraine likes it or not, “Crimea is de facto in Russia,” and Moscow must ensure that “Ukraine not be consolidated on an anti-Russian basis.”

    Among other things, the Moscow figure said, this means that Ukraine cannot become a member of the Western alliance. “Moscow is in a position to defend its interests, and ‘the expansion of NATO is impossible without Russia’s permission.” To any suggestions in that regard, “we say no.”

    In other comments, Zatulin expressed regret that the Minsk accords did not give official recognition to the Donetsk and Lugansk “people’s republics,” but he suggested that this mistake could and would be corrected in the future.

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    Outlaw -

    So - once again - no citations from you to support your mis-characterization of my comments?

    You quote Zatulin's statements (where is the link?) like I've actually disagreed with the assessment that Russia's aim is to effectively neuter Ukraine. How about you tell me how those claims you have just cited are compatable with your claim that Russia is going to annex eastern Ukraine. How can the Donbas be simultaneously annexed by Russia but also part of Ukraine? That's going to take some serious doublethink on your part!

    Oh - and still waiting for your opinion on Poroshenko's position that negotiations is the way for Ukraine to resolve its current conflict.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Outlaw -

    So - once again - no citations from you to support your mis-characterization of my comments?

    By the way AP here is a good example of Russian "doublespeak"---why because if Russia is in theory not involved in eastern Ukraine then just how an they be part and parcel of the "peace process"--thus the Russian FM is this time basically lying and not using "doublethink" statements.


    From RIA:
    Lavrov says that sanctions on Russia derail the peace process.

    You quote Zatulin's statements (where is the link?) like I've actually disagreed with the assessment that Russia's aim is to effectively neuter Ukraine. How about you tell me how those claims you have just cited are compatable with your claim that Russia is going to annex eastern Ukraine. How can the Donbas be simultaneously annexed by Russia but also part of Ukraine? That's going to take some serious doublethink on your part!

    Oh - and still waiting for your opinion on Poroshenko's position that negotiations is the way for Ukraine to resolve its current conflict.
    AP---here you go again and it seems to never end:

    I will cut and paste on the next comment a series of actual events that fully indicates Putin is moving ahead with plans to annex the entire "New Russia" then you can figure out what you do and or do not want to believe, think and or assume to your hearts content because you are spinning on a treadmill and have really not contributed anything.

    Secondly I did answer you last comment--you just never take the time to read.

    Suggestion---go back a reread.

    Thirdly--mildly surprised you even challenge a Russian analyst who is more in tune to Putin that either of us are.

    NOTICE one thing who actually signed the Minsk agreements by the way--is there an actual Ukrainian, mercenary or Russian signature on the document?---no actually only representatives--interesting is it not as it allows which has already occurred yesterday for the mercenaries to state we will change it all as we did not sign the agreement---it was a fig leaf by Russia in order to stop the sanctions which was clearly seen for what it was and the EU moved ahead as did the US.

    From last yesterday--now does this give you the suggested thoughts that "negotiations" actually worked---no not really.

    Update: Russian forces were not able to capture #Donetsk #Ukraine airport in largest assault to date. Reports of casualties on both sides

    NOTE to AP---Russia FM actually stated this second convoy had been worked out in consultations with the Ukraine---never happened---and that is not "doublethink" that is outright lying---"doublespeak" if you like the definition I sent you.

    The second #Russia "aid convoy" has penetetrated #Ukraine last night, without co-operation with #ICRC or Ukraine. http://en.ria.ru/world/20140913/1929...-Carrying.html

    AND AP---that now does not smack of "annexation"?

    #BreakingFootage Three Russian BM-21 fire simultaneously from near western-used hotel in central #Donetsk city.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXZpo (Mod adds: no longer available)

    AP--a key Russia demand that will be eliminated by the Ukrainian Rada in the coming days so then what is the next Russian move?

    #Lavrov: Maintenance of #Ukraine’s nonaligned status crucial for Moscow
    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/749380
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 09-13-2014 at 12:29 PM.

  16. #636
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    AP---yesterdays perfect example of capitulation of the EU in the face of the Russian aggression towards the Ukraine--if I were the Baltics and Poland I would be reassessing both the EU and NATO will.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxY9yYUCIAAM2ko.png:large

    All the strategic goals that Putin set out in his Duma speech have been achieved and has the West contributed to his success?--most certainly.

    Why because Germany wanted a "stick and carrot approach" tied to "rational" decisions by Putin---and not understanding either "doublethink" and or his "altered state of reality".

    The initial sanctions should have been these last ones with the nuclear threat of cutting Russia off from SWIFT and then the carrot should have been then we will back them down as you back down--they went the other way and achieved in the end nothing for their efforts--is Putin's economy badly damaged yes and will it effect his population yes but he does not care.

    Thus was a major pull back by the EU and condemned by many as a pull back and leaves many questioning EU thinking.

    By the way AP--here is a good example of actual Russian "doublespeak" and not "doublethink"

    From RIA:
    Lavrov says that sanctions on Russia derail the peace process.

    How exactly can Russia be a part of the peace process when it constantly states we are not supplying weapons, soldiers and mercenaries? Therefore basically--- now lying.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-13-2014 at 09:56 AM.

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    AP--so there was a "negotiated" ceasefire"?--this concerning the mercenary supported by Russian troops attack on the Ukrainian Army at the Donetsk Airport yesterday night---remember Russia is claiming a "ceasefire" was in fact negotiated right?

    They probably #forgot, they signed a ceasefire?! ...

    Actually they say, they attacked from 2 directions - #Oktyabrsky and #Spartacus - but I added confirmed #Grad fire from #Donetsk city as well

    #Breaking "People's Republic of Donetsk" give first infos on tonight's attack on #Donetsk airport from 3 directions.

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    Notice AP how this smacks of actual Russian annexation of eastern Ukraine--if I remember rightly and you had not participated in the initial threads on the Crimea--did we see Russia "offer" the Ukrainian parliamentarian's the right to come to and observe the Crimea annexation voting?---no they did not but now what is this move smack of---actual control in the internal affairs of eastern Ukraine ie de facto annexation.

    WHY--because they will still go even if the Ukraine says no--Russia is inherently locked into the "legality" thing they have in their mindset.

    From RIA today:

    MOSCOW, September 13 (RIA Novosti) - Members of the State Duma, the lower Russian parliamentary house, may participate in overseeing early parliamentary election in Ukraine if Kiev provides them the guarantees of security and freedom of speech, the speaker of the State Duma Sergei Naryshkin told the press Saturday.

    AP--was the Ukraine offered similar options during the Crimea voting---no actually they did not if I recall my history correctly.

    "Undoubtedly, we analyze the situation in Ukraine and the possibility of our participation in the upcoming parliamentary election. In order for this to become possible, we have to give an affirmative answer to a number of questions, including the questions on how [well] the security of our colleagues – the State Duma members – as well as the implementation of the observers" functions by them, safety of their transportation and freedom of their speech will be provided, since, after all, the observers are obliged to express their point of view on how free, democratic and adequate to the rules of international law the elections are," the official said.

    See AP now this is pure Russian "doublespeak" ie outright lying--not "doublethink".

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    Russian "definition of a ceasefire"

    1. an all night artillery/rocket and a massive Russian SF ground attack on the Donetsk airport-repulsed
    2. over 40 small arms, rocket and artillery attacks against UK/NG/Independent BN positions just inside the last six hours
    3. large Russian military convoy with large numbers of BM27s crossing Russian border point close to Mariupol

    And the list goes on---so is it a "ceasefire"? just as Russia stated before they crossed there are no Russian troops and weapons inside the Ukraine?

    Did in fact the whole series of sanctions actually work ie Russian disengagement and no troops and weapons entering the Ukraine--not really.

  20. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Russian "definition of a ceasefire"

    1. an all night artillery/rocket and a massive Russian SF ground attack on the Donetsk airport-repulsed
    2. over 40 small arms, rocket and artillery attacks against UK/NG/Independent BN positions just inside the last six hours
    3. large Russian military convoy with large numbers of BM27s crossing Russian border point close to Mariupol

    And the list goes on---so is it a "ceasefire"? just as Russia stated before they crossed there are no Russian troops and weapons inside the Ukraine?

    Did in fact the whole series of sanctions actually work ie Russian disengagement and no troops and weapons entering the Ukraine--not really.
    For those that noticed the Ukrainian government forces on their own with virtually no help from the West had by 18 August successfully started to recover their eastern regions.

    https://twitter.com/JerryPopowicz/st...273601/photo/1

    Left map is from 18 Aug the right map from 12 Sept---in last than three weeks notice the massive territory shift.

    Notice now just how much of the Ukraine is now not under their control since Russian troops crossed the border along with hundreds of tanks, APCs, and heavy rocket/artillery.

    All the while Russia stating from the beginning stating this is just the "locals" protecting themselves--how many times in the last six months has the West head the refrain "it ain't us"?

    Then another Russian Brigade enters the Ukraine when it was reported 70% left---strange math.

    https://twitter.com/MiddleEast_BRK/s...57461239025664
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-13-2014 at 02:44 PM.

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