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Thread: Ukraine: non-military aspects (August 2014-December 2015)

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    Special video for outlaw, from Ukrainian detective series, courteously translated by me
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiTb...&feature=share

    Whacko patient studies a map of Crimea, murmurs: “What a fortunate turn of events”
    Three visitors enter.
    P: Guests? Wonderful! Are you interested in my political movement?
    Guy#1: Hello, Miroslav Jakovlevich! We urge to get acquainted with you.
    P: “No, lets waste no time, we’ll get acquainted later, have a seat, please. I know how to destroy Russia. Listen carefully. In order to do this, Sevastopol must be handed to them, Immediately”
    Guy#2: “Like, to make them choke with it?”
    P: “No, this is trivial, there is more subtle way”
    Guy#1: “Miroslav Jakovlevich, we have business with you..”
    P: “Our business is mutual, young gentlemen. Do you know that in the city of Russian glory entire sewage system had erupted for forty times? ”
    Guy#1: “Twenty seven”
    P: “Ah, you know”
    Guy#1: “Entire country knows”
    P: “Country.. nobody knows this in Moscow. Why so? Because there are only bandits there, they don’t care, they wanted it – and they’ll get it”
    Guy#2: “I disagree”
    Guy#1: “You argue to whom?”
    Guy#2: “Oh.. yes”
    P: “We have to do a small sacrifice to in order get more. We give them Luganskaia oblast’ with two millions of communists. Imagine this: two millions of communists and a city with destroyed sewage system – that would be a disaster..”
    Guy#1: “Brilliant!”



    bonus video: Hard evidence of Russian invasion, in Ukrainian.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yrEYPVUumA
    mirhond---care to answer this video of "Russian foreign fighters". should not have a problem as it is in your language.

    Chechens,Armenians,Dagestanis,Gypsies,Ossetians & Abkhazians which defend "Russian world"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ui0wNlYsZo

    easier one to translate mirhond

    Here is a #Russian #soldier captured fighting in #Ukraine. And they claim they are fighting #Fascism!
    pic.twitter.com/5JMvTsf9s2

    German journalists @correctiv_org prove what #Ukraine supporters knew since summer: #MH17 was shot down by #Russia
    https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-09-2015 at 08:19 PM.

  2. #222
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    Beside the price pay in blood for the Russian invasion it also had a big impact on the Ukrainian economy:

    Ukraine’s economy probably shrank 7.5 percent this year, after the conflict with eastern separatists and Russia’s takeover of Crimea helped trigger a “full-scale” financial crisis, central bank Governor Valeriya Gontareva said.

    The Ukrainian banking system is “non-functioning,” and the rate of the hryvnia, which has fallen 48 percent against the dollar this year to become the world’s worst-performing currency, reflects its true value, Gontareva said today at a central bank briefing in Kiev. When asked whether Ukraine would default on its debt, she said: “I don’t think Ukraine needs to be a pariah country.”
    As stated before by myself and others considerable European and American financial support is arguably the most important help for the Ukrainian state and it's population.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  3. #223
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    I am curious, will everyone who has something positive to say about be Russia be drowned out as well? As another poster noted somewhere else, if they (whomever) are going to talk to you in English, why not listen?

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    I am curious, will everyone who has something positive to say about be Russia be drowned out as well? As another poster noted somewhere else, if they (whomever) are going to talk to you in English, why not listen?
    This is an interesting comment for a number of reasons but will focus on one response.

    Just exactly what is currently "good and or positive" coming out of either mother Russia itself and or the Putin led inner circle?

    I would though actually state there have been three "liberal" Russia elites saying totally negative things right now and from inside their country--but since 200% of the Russian media is under state security control due to all the law changes instituted by Putin just alone in 2014 to avoid another Maidan in Moscow--so where are we to get a half way "honest Russian" voice?

    As one who battles Russian paid trolls most of each day--right now there is no "neutral" Russia voices coming out of Moscow. Until the Russians themselves as a population back away from their "Holy War" there will be no "neutral voices coming from inside Russia unless you count our favorite mirhond?

    Great example for you--after the BM21/27 shelling yesterday of Mariupol by Russian paid mercenaries killing 30 and wounding over 100 and being even voice intercepted that is posted on the other Russian thread--- Russia "took down their Russian Facebook VK completely" off the internet in order to control any possible comments coming from Russians--so again where is the "neutral" voice to respond to?

    Because I have a ton of direct questions for that voice but if asked-- Russians would be unwilling to answer them.

    Second example --this then sounds like a typical Russian "neutral voice"?---reference "Holy War".

    Actual headline: "Russia could be one of world's last civilizations - Church official"
    http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=11784
    They misspelled "lost".
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-25-2015 at 08:09 AM.

  5. #225
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    I will take that as a yes.

  6. #226
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    As one who battles Russian paid trolls most of each day...
    "Battles." Yes, I have been reading a lot of what you post here and, politely, I think you flatter yourself. You post, often, and it's clear you are passionate about "mother Russia." Having said that, in my opinion, you confuse quantity with quality.


    It took me some time to realize the true value of Small Wars Council. Considering you are no stranger to unsolicited advice, I pass it along here: You have far more to learn than you have to teach.
    Last edited by Ender; 01-25-2015 at 07:23 PM.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    "Battles." Yes, I have been reading a lot of what you post here and, politely, I think you flatter yourself. You post, often, and it's clear you are passionate about "mother Russia." Having said that, in my opinion, you confuse quantity with quality.


    It took me some time to realize the true value of Small Wars Council. Considering you are no stranger to unsolicited advice, I pass it along here: You have far more to learn than you have to teach.
    Ah love the comments about having to learn-two things you need to understand and it might sound strange but I tend to get a lot of mail via other channels that indicate much of what I post here is not in the western media and or it shows up in "some" western media 3-6 days after it happens in the Ukraine for example and if it does then it is buried in page 21.

    AND they use these Ukrainian threads to stay informed--check for example the number of Views on the two Ukrainian military threads--let's see right now they are at about say roughly 189,000 views since both threads started and on this one check the Views as well as the Russian Economy Views (at 30,000 plus) and Info war Views (13,000 or so) plus this thread which I do not tend to post much to as virtually everything in the Ukraine is now military in nature.

    So in effect the Views seems to out way your comments do you not think?--- give it some thought---189K individuals took a single or maybe multiple views--not bad right as that means they can form their own opinions good or bad.

    I find for example that information taken from a wide variety of social media theses days is extremely useful in forming one's opinion and views something you seem to have ignored and if I relied on western media to form my opinion on the Russo Ukraine War I would find myself in a very dark closest in total silence would you not say?

    Why useful--there are some major journalists and former EU FMs, some great European political science types or some really great open source analysts that often work the social media side that never really work the main western media that provide multiple views on one topic than does the entire mainstream media these days--but you know that already.

    Here is an example---not sure you have seen in a majority of the western media the execution by Russian troops and or mercenaries of captured Ukrainian POWs .

    Now find me the list of western media that carried this story or let's sit back and count the days before it shows up first on Yahoo News and then let's see who else mentions it.

    Once you have worked your way through the POW execution links--now tell me there is nothing there to learn from.

    Zakharchenko: "We'll take no prisoners"
    #Russia|n troops executed 11 POWs in Krasnyi Partyzan
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6of0JZ4_PbA&sns … pic.twitter.com/IKTeIUVsfz

    Moments before these captured Ukrainian troops where murdered by the Putin's Russian forces. pic.twitter.com/XdBqdHTDzQ

    Europe is heading for a Balkans-type War. In Ukraine. On your watch. Time to get tough on Russia.
    pic.twitter.com/Va9brYpSmZ

    BY the way you seem to have missed the comment on the Russian "Holy War"---who else fights a "Holy War" these days?

    Interesting is it not to see the interconnection between the two "Holy Wars" but hey based on your comments I need to learn right?
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-25-2015 at 08:05 PM.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    "Battles." Yes, I have been reading a lot of what you post here and, politely, I think you flatter yourself. You post, often, and it's clear you are passionate about "mother Russia." Having said that, in my opinion, you confuse quantity with quality.


    It took me some time to realize the true value of Small Wars Council. Considering you are no stranger to unsolicited advice, I pass it along here: You have far more to learn than you have to teach.
    Quantity vs quality is an interesting comment---I find that much of what I post and if you plotted it on a large operations map you would be in the middle of an interesting war with multiple views some the fog of war but a majority correct taken from a social stream that double checks a lot of their info which I find that media outlets ie NTYs and BBS have just passed on unchecked Russian propaganda fake stories until called out by social media.

    Have you seen them called out on it by "informed individuals in the US"--not really.

    Some of the information comes straight from the social media phones of Ukrainian army fighters in the middle of a fight or from the rocket attack in Mariupol which by the way I was posting here long long before the Stateside media even picked it up--or did you not notice.

    If you went into the military thread you would have seen postings on the Dontesk airport battles long long before it hit the FP this week--ever wonder why there is a sheer lack of information on the Ukraine in the US?--now that is an interesting topic. By the way the fog of war was deep on those battles from both the Russian and Ukrainian sides.

    If you are so concerned by quantity vs quality then you should have addressed it when Iraq was rolling-- 90% trash and 3% quality and 7% was white chatter.

    By the way you did notice that social media is effectively pushing back on the major Russian disinformation campaign that has rolled over the US/EU and right now the Russian trolls have been pushed back massively by social media and Russia is being forced to address the social media in a major way that they under estimated would occur.

    Or is the disconnecting of their Facebook VK from the internet this weekend over the Mariupol shellings a sign of strength or weakness. Did you think Russian was worried about what western media might find or where they worried about what the social media would find?

    You did also notice that social media open source analysis was recently used by the US UNSC Ambassador to prove her point---again quantity vs quality right?

    You did notice mirhond has not been around for awhile right.

    You did notice this following comment has not been mentioned anywhere in US media. Again: Quantity vs quality??

    Confirmed: #Russia|n armed forces 64th Motorized Infantry Brigade h51460 #Khabarovsk, id'd in central #Donetsk Jan 22
    pic.twitter.com/H1Y39UU87a
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-25-2015 at 08:51 PM.

  9. #229
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    Link removed by Moderator and PM to author
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 01-25-2015 at 09:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Quantity vs quality again the question right? In what media in the US is again the question.

    Intelligence: In #Stakhanov RU troops concentrated up to 4 tank battalions & mixed artillery regiment to. Trying to cut #Debaltseve ?

    Report: Large Russian army striking group is now forming in #Stakhanov
    pic.twitter.com/2zBX1ox0HS
    http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/25-jan
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 01-25-2015 at 09:51 PM. Reason: Three sentences removed by Moderator and PM to author

  11. #231
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    If traffic is your metric, you are doing this for the wrong reason. I don't care that you post, or post often. It's that you mistake being an industrious Google flogger for being a serious analyst. It's that when someone else, an absolute stranger, says something (you think) you disagree with, you presume to lecture the person as though you actually do know what you are talking about rather than just parroting the last thing you heard or read. You don't just post and let people make up their own minds. You post, with commentary. There is a difference.

    In short, in my opinion, you treat SWC like a cheap internet blog site and I, and others, want it to be more.

    I was hoping to find informed discussion on all of this, instead all I see is you crapping all over every single page that has anything even remotely to do with any of it. Would that your contributions were as well-researched as you presume too... Rare and unique sources do not qualify for credible sources. Even still, you would be safe posting them as long as you didn't take them at face value.

    The fact that you reflexively post so much here without any real consideration for extending the conversation makes me wonder who YOU are working for, Outlaw.
    Last edited by Ender; 01-25-2015 at 10:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    If traffic is your metric, you are doing this for the wrong reason. I don't care that you post, or post often. It's that you mistake being an industrious Google flogger for being a serious analyst. It's that when someone else, an absolute stranger, says something (you think) you disagree with, you presume to lecture the person as though you actually do know what you are talking about rather than just parroting the last thing you heard or read. You don't just post and let people make up their own minds. You post, with commentary. There is a difference.

    By the way is that any different than say Wapo or NYts or any journalist these days or yourself?

    In short, in my opinion, you treat SWC like a cheap internet blog site and the educational level of whatever thread you are in is diminished for it.

    I was hoping to find informed discussion on all of this, instead all I see is you crapping all over every single page that has anything even remotely to do with any of it. Would that your contributions were as well-informed as you presume too... Rare and unique sources do not qualify for credible sources. Even still, you would be safe posting them as long as you don't take them at face value.

    The fact that you reflexively post so much here without any real consideration for extending the conversation makes me wonder who YOU are working for, Outlaw.
    Wow---interesting still no direct answer to the question thrown out there for you to answer "Russian Holy War" yes or no and is it connected to the Salafist jihadis who also wage a "Holy War"? You wanted to learn and yet did not answer--strange is it not as that question alone could earn you a doctorial thesis.

    By the way you do know the question was raised here on another thread and little comment came in--"is there a connection between Russia and IS" via Chechnya?

    Still no answer to it after two attempts to get you to respond-.

    You throw out quantity vs quality as a critique--here is another one;

    Fact or Fiction or as you state Quantity vs quality for you to learn something since you want discourse to learn from--

    Did he (Girkin/Strelkov---both by the way the same individual if you have not been following him via my postings) or did he not operate in the take over of the DNR/Crimea personally for Putin---let's start a non military discussion just on that single topic---but again you are little informed as you have shown up late to the party it seems.

    To start this discourse I will respond to your answers and see if you can learn something.

    If you do not know the individual there has been plenty posted on the thread by myself and kaur if you read his comments as well over his actions and what his recent Russian TV interviews have indicated ---that is if you accept Russian TV as the "truth" ---but in this case IMHO he is in fact stating the truth and somehow has escaped being killed as an number of his fellow followers who were with him have suddenly "died recently" after returning from Donetsk.

    Awaiting your responses to Girkin to kick off this learning session.

    But again you critique the postings as quantity vs quality so I am not sure you want to go back and research for the specific postings on Girkin.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-25-2015 at 10:31 PM.

  13. #233
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    Thank you for editing that last post (again and again and again). I have read this thread thoroughly and understand you had issues with another member who is no longer with us. Respectfully, I am not him and I would seriously appreciate it if you would refrain from bringing your last "battle" with him here into the discussion.

    The truth is, I am not going to answer your questions and I don't want to have a discussion with you about why I will, or won't. Just because we post here, Outlaw, doesn't mean we are entitled to be taken seriously.

    This will be my last comment to you here; I sincerely hope you find a way to provide space for other members to express themselves without being berated by the last gem you found on the web. Cheers.

  14. #234
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    SWC is here for the voluntary exchange of information and debate. Sometimes posts appear that are controversial for some, many and even none at times. Debate can happen, it does not always happen.

    To my knowledge some topics attract more attention, even posts and controversy. Syria for three years has been one, for example over to intervene or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Thank you for editing that last post (again and again and again). I have read this thread thoroughly and understand you had issues with another member who is no longer with us. Respectfully, I am not him and I would seriously appreciate it if you would refrain from bringing your last "battle" with him here into the discussion.

    The truth is, I am not going to answer your questions and I don't want to have a discussion with you about why I will, or won't. Just because we post here, Outlaw, doesn't mean we are entitled to be taken seriously.

    This will be my last comment to you here; I sincerely hope you find a way to provide space for other members to express themselves without being berated by the last gem you found on the web. Cheers.
    Here is what you fully missed---all the posts are in fact "open source"--the value of open source to the end user ie yourself is the ability to take open source and use it to do three things for you

    1. confirm your biases
    2. deny your biases and
    3. to tip you to look in a new direction

    Whether you accept the concept that open source now formally titled OSINT does in fact provide 80% of all intelligence and is used to confirm, deny and tip is your choice--but in fact the 80% is correct.

    All the postings if you had really checked them provide either links, photos and or supporting videos and a lot of the photos and videos have in fact been geo tagged --and have even been used at the UNSC by the US.

    Whether you like or dislike the posting is open to your own biases but a gentle reminder what you have seen over the last four weeks is eye opening and should be challenging your every biase especially in the face of the fact your rarely see it in western media and if you do it is usually 3-6 days old.

    Shame you did not take up the two questions as they are key to what is going on in both the Ukraine and with IS and oh yes open source has proven a number of things lately down to showing the West a massive amount of new Russia weapons systems that we simply did not realize.

    See again with your last comment---on every single posting you could have in fact entered into a discussion around that posting---missed opportunity in the world of open source.

    The events are occurring so fast that in the discussion chain more open source could have flowed into the discussion around the deny or confirm method expanding some of the events into major conversations=missed opportunity.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-26-2015 at 01:25 AM.

  16. #236
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    I said I wouldn't respond. I lied.

    Out of curiosity, who do you presume you are preaching to here? Who exactly do you think you are educating with these Disneyland, crayon, and cartoon versions of Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Asia, and everything in between? You do get that most of us are Americans, right? Of age to remember the USSR? You don't have to beat us over the head with your little plastic bat to get us to pay attention to Russia. Yes, child, they are playing for keeps. We get it. Things are seriously getting crazy in Ukraine right now. We. get. that. too.

    As a favor, could you bring it down a notch or two so the adults can talk? You are (largely) preaching to the choir here at SWC and the Wide-Eye, Mouth-Breathing, Chicken Little routine is not making a bad situation any better, thank you.

    In reference to open-source material, I confess it reads like you just discovered that statistic last year. Yes, Outlaw, everyone knows the bulk of all "intel" is laying out in the open. Gold star, well done. One more correct answer and you get a Spy Kid Merit Badge to match. To clarify, what you are doing isn't (IS NOT) "intelligence" or even "intelligence gathering." It's "information sharing" (at BEST), and Polish/Ukrainian/Lithuanian/Russian/WhoKnows? agenda-pushing/disinformation-spreading at worst. It's not that you don't know what you know, rather it's that what you know is rather limited, extremely biased, and how you deliver that limited information, in print, reads rather thick and simple.

    To be clear, it's not that you post material here.
    It's that you have a very limited idea about the subjects you post on and publicly trumpet that fact, often. It it were just the links and a description there would be no more migraines. But, no. You have to soap box on every single post. Every one. A little over 7 posts a day. For over a year. It's painful.
    Last edited by Ender; 01-26-2015 at 08:45 AM.

  17. #237
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    So we are clear: I do not want to learn anything from you because I am convinced you have nothing to teach me. Trust me, after having spent the better part of too many hours reading your posts here, I am absolutely qualified to make this assessment.

    That is why I will not answer your (overly simplistic) questions. You have, in no way, shown yourself to be anything other than a rabid ideologue. A blogger. A shameless reposter of other people's material. Respectfully, not once have I ever gotten the sense that you are educated, trained, or objectively informed about the matters you talk so passionately about.

    In fact, your Russophobia is laid on so thick, and your "lessons" are so uni-dimensional, so monochromatic, it really makes one wonder: who butters your bread, Outlaw?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    So we are clear: I do not want to learn anything from you because I am convinced you have nothing to teach me. Trust me, after having spent the better part of too many hours reading your posts here, I am absolutely qualified to make this assessment.

    That is why I will not answer your (overly simplistic) questions. You have, in no way, shown yourself to be anything other than a rabid ideologue. A blogger. A shameless reposter of other people's material. Respectfully, not once have I ever gotten the sense that you are educated, trained, or objectively informed about the matters you talk so passionately about.

    In fact, your Russophobia is laid on so thick, and your "lessons" are so uni-dimensional, so monochromatic, it really makes one wonder: who butters your bread, Outlaw?
    Everyone notices you still do not answer to the very direct two questions --you stated you want a discussion but strangely you back away from a discussion when two very simple formulated questions are posted back to you---wonder why?

    Again for a third question --just what is and or has come out of Putin, his FM and anyone in the Moscow elites in the last eight months that is really worth discussing here---awaiting a good example.

    Will give you some choices to pick from that is now treading.

    Lavrov: Russia helps Ukraine by sending aid [sic!], accepting refugees, lowering rates on coal, electricity, not demanding debt repayment.

    Notice by the way he did not state Russia is actively supporting and implementing Minsk 1--now that would be a solid discussion proposal--is Russia in fact just using Minsk 1 to send in more troops and heavy weapons and yet argue is all the Ukrainians fault?

    OR we could discuss the theft of Ukrainian coal by Russia and verified by the OSCE and then selling it back to the Ukraine--now that is an interesting topic as well.

    So now Rogozin is admitting that US missile-defense plans are no threat to Russia? Am I missing something?
    http://itar-tass.com/en/world/773284


    I am confused here--has not Putin and his FM often stated since August 2014 that the US missile shield is a direct threat to Russia--this would led to the question--- what is real and not real in the current Russian disinformation/information war campaign? We coud even use the various Russian media statements that both have used stating the US missile threat if you like.

    #Lavrov- Tragedy in #Mariupol,#Donetsk,#Volnovakha due to #Ukraine not accepting #Putin offer http://bit.ly/1ELrIDQ
    pic.twitter.com/oQCtuHw4If


    Even more confused by the FM's comments ---has not open source analysis 200% proven and yes it was used recently in the UNSC that Russian troops and or their supported, supplied and funded mercenaries shelled the buses at Volnovakha, Donetsk and shelled the civilian residential areas of Mariupol? Or did I miss the SBU voice intercept of the Russian mercenary GRAD batteries that fired into the city but wait it was also posted here as well---that makes it then simple to pull up and discuss.

    But again wait--was not Putin's Berlin proposal of pulling back heavy artillery 15kms just a rehash of what was already in the Minsk Agreement "signed" by Russia in Sept 2014, BUT wait did not Russia recall it's signature from the November 2014 ceasefire Minsk document?--so maybe you could assist in sorting out exactly what Putin's position is that the FM is referring to?

    That would be a great discussion topic that might not get into anti Russian comments.

    We could start a discussion thread just on those shellings if you would like---BUT wait were the various open source analysis products already posted here at SWJ? And we could get the comments of the US UNSC Ambassador who quoted the analysis if you like as well.

    Or we could include as a discussion the Russian mercenary executions of Ukrainian POWs-but wait that was also already posted as well.

    So back to the original thread---just pick a discussion topic and let's see where it takes us-but again you never answer anything anyway.

    So in the end it is all words and nothing more.

    Forgot you mentioned "buttered bread"---that minds me I have a business brunch this after noon so make a decision on your "favorite topic" from above, provide some thought provoking statements and I will respond in a "not to overbearing anti Russian fashion" and let's see if you can discuss.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-26-2015 at 10:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Everyone notices you still do not answer to the very direct two questions --you stated you want a discussion but strangely you back away from a discussion when two very simple formulated questions are posted back to you---wonder why?

    Again for a third question --just what is and or has come out of Putin, his FM and anyone in the Moscow elites in the last eight months that is really worth discussing here---awaiting a good example.

    Will give you some choices to pick from that is now treading.

    Lavrov: Russia helps Ukraine by sending aid [sic!], accepting refugees, lowering rates on coal, electricity, not demanding debt repayment.

    Notice by the way he did not state Russia is actively supporting and implementing Minsk 1--now that would be a solid discussion proposal--is Russia in fact just using Minsk 1 to send in more troops and heavy weapons and yet argue is all the Ukrainians fault?

    OR we could discuss the theft of Ukrainian coal by Russia and verified by the OSCE and then selling it back to the Ukraine--now that is an interesting topic as well.

    So now Rogozin is admitting that US missile-defense plans are no threat to Russia? Am I missing something?
    http://itar-tass.com/en/world/773284


    I am confused here--has not Putin and his FM often stated since August 2014 that the US missile shield is a direct threat to Russia--this would led to the question--- what is real and not real in the current Russian disinformation/information war campaign? We coud even use the various Russian media statements that both have used stating the US missile threat if you like.

    #Lavrov- Tragedy in #Mariupol,#Donetsk,#Volnovakha due to #Ukraine not accepting #Putin offer http://bit.ly/1ELrIDQ
    pic.twitter.com/oQCtuHw4If


    Even more confused by the FM's comments ---has not open source analysis 200% proven and yes it was used recently in the UNSC that Russian troops and or their supported, supplied and funded mercenaries shelled the buses at Volnovakha, Donetsk and shelled the civilian residential areas of Mariupol? Or did I miss the SBU voice intercept of the Russian mercenary GRAD batteries that fired into the city but wait it was also posted here as well---that makes it then simple to pull up and discuss.

    But again wait--was not Putin's Berlin proposal of pulling back heavy artillery 15kms just a rehash of what was already in the Minsk Agreement "signed" by Russia in Sept 2014, BUT wait did not Russia recall it's signature from the November 2014 ceasefire Minsk document?--so maybe you could assist in sorting out exactly what Putin's position is that the FM is referring to?

    That would be a great discussion topic that might not get into anti Russian comments.

    We could start a discussion thread just on those shellings if you would like---BUT wait were the various open source analysis products already posted here at SWJ? And we could get the comments of the US UNSC Ambassador who quoted the analysis if you like as well.

    Or we could include as a discussion the Russian mercenary executions of Ukrainian POWs-but wait that was also already posted as well.

    So back to the original thread---just pick a discussion topic and let's see where it takes us-but again you never answer anything anyway.

    So in the end it is all words and nothing more.

    Forgot you mentioned "buttered bread"---that minds me I have a business brunch this after noon so make a decision on your "favorite topic" from above, provide some thought provoking statements and I will respond in a "not to overbearing anti Russian fashion" and let's see if you can discuss.
    Or we could take this treading direction as a basis of discussion--something like "how is Russian media being used in the Russian UW strategy of disinformation warfare for both Russians inside Russian and for foreign audiences".

    THE RUSSIANS EXECUTED 4 UKRAINIAN POWS AND FILMED IT AFTERWARDS WHILE 2 WERE STILL ALIVE
    http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.co.uk/2...ans-shoot.html
    pic.twitter.com/iVeIK79z81

    Most horrendous video 'Russian press' has produced so far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-gJ46pVLMo … It'll make you sick. Do NOT watch.
    pic.twitter.com/bP9cp31whC

  20. #240
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    Attempting to not be "anti-Russian" but here are statements from the Russian FM and small comments indicating the falsehoods.

    Prefect example of the Russian “altered state of reality” meaning if I recall the Russian FMs own statement just after he learned that Russian troops had shelled Mariupol killing 30 and wounding over 100 “we will do any solution that it takes to stop the conflict” Quote/Unquote:

    See anything that reflects that statement and his previous statement “the DNR through our influence will pull back to the Minsk demarcation lines”---see anything along those lines appearing lately? Right after
    His statement the DNR “declared war” and stated they will take the entire Donbas.

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Lavrov: We hope that our Western partners and the US refrain from any moves that could make Kiev think the West supports all of its actions

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Lavrov: Confident that the peace process must be revived, we focus on steps to promote dialogue between Kiev and the self-defence fighters

    NOTE: Notice how now the Russian “separatists” are now “self defense fighters---whatever the heck that is defined as---Russian troops executing POWs and shelling civilians I guess does make them “self defense fighters” which is though a big stretch in the English language.

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Lavrov: As far as I know, contacts between them are expected to take place in the days to come. We seek to facilitate them

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Lavrov: They announced that their actions are aimed at destroying positions Ukrainian forces use to fire at residential areas

    NOTE: FM still does not recognize the fact that open source analysis has fully proven Russian troops and their mercenaries shelled two buses and civilians in Mariupol. This is called the Russian MH17 shuffle.

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Lavrov: It would be naïve to expect the militia to do nothing while their communities are shelled at the orders of the Ukrainian president

    NOTICE just how the Russian FM sidesteps the Russian supported shellings of two buses and civilians in Mariupol and NOTICE how he avoids the two statements by the DNR mercenary leader that he is in an offensive and that he declared “war” on the Ukraine? NOTICE how he provides absolutely no evidence of the Presidential "order".

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Lavrov: In this situation, it would be naïve to expect any appeasing rhetoric from the other side #Ukraine

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Lavrov: Unfortunately, Kiev put the Berlin arrangement into question the very next day #Ukraine

    NOTE: another FM falsehood as their proposal to pull back 15kms was firmly anchored already in the Minsk Agreement PLUS the Ukrainians stated we will pull back when we see no shellings from the mercenaries and Russian troops as they had been in a previous unilateral ceasefire from Nov 2014 which initially had even a Russian signature that they then “recalled” whatever that means to them.

    AND during that unilateral ceasefire they were fired on over 600 times.

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