Question #1: Do the bikes necessarily need to be ridden, or is it enough to strap a load to them and walk alongside? I'm thinking of PAVN troops on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, not so much mounted Swiss troops. Perhaps a bike or two per section or squad might take a significant portion of the load off the backs of some of the dismounts patrolling in Afghanistan.
Question #2: Would an e-bike be capable of charging batteries like the BB-2590/U in a practical manner?
I had my fair share of fun over the last months with a 29er hardtail with a Bosch 250w crank drive motor. Usually it is said to be 'ganzo' or somewhat of a 'tractor'. It is rather impressive how it climbs on steep stuff, feels safe if not nimble and is easy to use. The mighty increase in torque* means that on soft, loose ground traction and flotation are far more often the limiting factor for that ebike than power. This is why an electric fatbike interests me so much that I will certainly test the macina freeze by KTM.Originally Posted by Dayuhan
The touring bike market seems to have come up with more and more solutions to carry loads in a practical manner, but bikes are still rather limited as you rightly point out. The latest Swiss military bike 12 shows that a full-suspension bike makes some methods quite complicated. I have no experience with bike touring so I will leave it there for now.One problem likely to be encountered with military use is that the bicycle has limited adaptability to carrying weight, and troops these days carry a lot of that. A load on the rider's back is very unstable at speed and not healthy for the rider: a standing or walking position allows you to carry a load primarily on you hips; a natural cycling position does not, and any load on the back tends to put a lot of stress on the rider's lower back, especially on uneven terrain. The traditional solutions, panniers and handlebar bags, have limited capacity.
While I see such ebikes more in support and recce troops then combat the potentially very heavy burden of soldier plus load compared to a fit biker with his light gear is indeed a big problem. Full-supension, engine and fat tyres should help a great deal to increase the ride comfort and mobility and make it easier to drive in more challenging terrain. While it will be far harder to haul/carry over obstacles the relative new 'push-assist' makes it rather easy to push so equipped ebikes up steep slopes. Adjustable regen breaking is also a plus. This is of course relevant to the question raised by Biggus:
I'm a bit sceptical on that, but military forces with low budgets and low personal costs might make a good of cheap Chinese ebikes or eScooters. About question 2, it should be quite possible to design a bike battery which right now have mostly 400W from which you can recharge other gear.Question #1: Do the bikes necessarily need to be ridden, or is it enough to strap a load to them and walk alongside? I'm thinking of PAVN troops on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, not so much mounted Swiss troops. Perhaps a bike or two per section or squad might take a significant portion of the load off the backs of some of the dismounts patrolling in Afghanistan.
*Torque is of course a big strenght of electric engines. It is important to point out the following about pedelecs:
The most influential definition which defines which e-bikes are pedelecs and which are not, comes from the EU and as such is valid across the whole of Europe. From the EU directive (EN15194 standard) for motor vehicles, a bicycle is considered a pedelec if:
i) the pedal-assist, i.e. the motorised assistance that only engages when the rider is pedalling, cuts out once 25 km/h is reached, and
ii) when the motor produces maximum continuous rated power of not more than 250 watts (n.b. the motor can produce more power for short periods, such as when the rider is struggling to get up a steep hill).
An e-bike conforming to these conditions is considered to be a pedelec and is legally classed as a bicycle
Last edited by Firn; 08-25-2014 at 07:55 PM.
... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"
General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935
I confess that I'm a bit of a Luddite when it comes to cycling innovation: I think most of what passes for "innovation" lately is just the industry trying to come up with new stuff for cyclists to buy, and a lot of the supposed innovations mean very little in terms of performance. I still use 26" wheels (I ride technical trails and big wheels just feel clumsy) and a 2x9 drivetrain. A few years ago the industry was saying everyone has to be on 2x10, now they all want us to go 1x11. I think they are just trying to sell stuff.
I don't get the whole fatbike thing at all, unless you ride a lot on snow, which most people don't. In mud they will be a liability: you'll sink in anyway and have to plow all that tire through.
I can see how motor assist would be useful to people who use a bike as a tool, as would be the case in any military scenario. No interest in using it myself: the whole point is to do it myself! I have to wonder about the durability and maintenance issues, though, another consideration for military use: you'd have to have bike mechanics along wherever there are bikes.
Putting a rack over the rear wheel is complicated with a full suspension bike, because the rear triangle is not static relative to the front triangle, making it complicated to fix the rack to both. With any bike, putting any significant weight over the rear wheel produces a strong tendency for the front to lift while climbing steep hills. A bag under the top tube can work but it has to be very narrow to avoid chafing on the legs. My solution on multiday rides is to put high bulk/low weight items (extra clothing) on the back, high weight/low bulk items like tools, spares, camera in a handlebar bag, and food/water in a small backpack. The key is to keep weight very minimal (10kg absolute max, usually less) and distribute it around the bike. Too much weight in the front, the rear, or high up is dangerously unstable at any speed.
Suspension, tires, and bakes have some impact but do not change the fundamental problem of trying to carry a large load on your back while riding a bicycle. A backpack works while standing straight up by shifting the load to the hips. On a bike you're leaning forward, so the load goes onto your lower back, not the best place for it to be. Plus at any speed inertia comes into play, which means that when you turn the bike that load wants to keep going in a straight line. The consequences are not always pleasant.
It's also true that while a skilled rider on a mt bike can move fast over quite difficult terrain, this requires skill and a great deal of practice. If less skilled people try to do it, especially under large loads, accidents and injuries will result. Adding mt biking to a training rotation would probably be fun, but I'm not sure how practical it would be!
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”
H.L. Mencken
That picture is precisely what I had in mind.
I would imagine that achieving a low weight whilst also being sufficiently durable and cheap would be somewhat difficult, although I acknowledge that many riders are as tough on their bikes as an infantryman would be.
Where I can foresee a practical use for an electric bike is in small unit reconnaissance, as a quieter alternative to motorbikes and possibly even ATVs. I understand that one US unit has evaluated electric Polaris ATVs in a similar role.
@Biggus and WGEwald:
Chinese eBikes might not be as sophisticated as some of the Western stuff shown earlier even if it's components are largely produced there and other Asian countries. However at those prices I could imagine that not so wealthy countries could employ them in a number of roles, mostly those discussed here. What truly fascinates me is the sheer production capability of 1000000 Unit/Units per Year declared by the company.
I wouldn't love to wade through deep water with those but with a (remote) push-assist and cheap portage labour they could bring quite a bit of stuff over narrow trails.
Last edited by Firn; 08-26-2014 at 06:42 PM.
... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"
General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935
I think that you are rightly pointing out the biggest problem for the use of bicycles by the Western infantry: the heavy load carried by the soldiers. Bikers of all sorts are well-known to be often fanatical about weight, especially if slopes have to be conquered.
This is one of the reasons why I hardly see even a niche role for most combat operations for Western forces. This leaves for them those roles:
i) Quick and agile short-distance (>15 km) rides for troops at or around military bases. No need for a mother vehicle.
ii) The same for support troops or rotated other forces in theatre if the situation allows. A standard vehicle might work as mother for one or two, a support truck for a couple.
iii) Motorized recce operations might get supported by one or two ebikes strapped to the specific vehicle. Once again it is about relative short distances over terrain which poses difficulties for larger vehicles. Could be forests with narrow trails or urbanized areas.
iv) Infiltrations by various means, for example like those coastline raids by Commandos in WWII in which 'borrowed' bicycles were used. Surprisingly distant targets might be approached that way rather quickly and silently.
v) Patrolling in mostly old urban areas during (very) low-intensity conflicts or stability operations for example by Carabinieri-like troops.
Other armed forces might use them also for:
vi) Portage or 'Pushage' in rather difficult terrain with narrow paths
For most of those niches a powerful engine and batteries are attractive. The ability to fold the bike would also be often highly valuable but has still some considerable downsides. While in some cases like not so deep mud fat tyres might be at a disadvantage overall they should make, at least powered by an electric motor, most tasks quicker, easier and safer. This goes also for full suspension. Overall my personal point of view that in cases like those it is a good maxim to spend more and have a - still cheap - piece of equipment which might be too performant for some activities instead of ending up with stuff not up to some tasks. Obviously there is a good case for two, maybe three types of ebikes.
Your other points are also of interest, I will write about them later.
Last edited by Firn; 08-26-2014 at 08:43 PM.
... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"
General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935
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