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Thread: Pedalcycling into war - might (e)Bikes be back?

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  1. #1
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    Default Pedalcycling into war - might (e)Bikes be back?

    Bicycles have been popular vehicles after quick technological progress in the decades before 1900. Military forces adopted it to give infantry a relative cheap way to move quickly over longer distances. The rise of the motor vehicles in all forms in ever richer countries replaced them almost entirely. Last were the Swiss which hopped off the saddle a decade ago.

    Overall, if so few armed forces around the world use them there should be rather good reasons why it is so. Even 2WD eBikes with serious money behind didn't seem to go far. At best it might make some sense in niches like urban operations in (very) low intensity conflicts. I will leave that to wiser heads.

    So why I'm opening this topic apart from personal research for a new eBike? I think there have been and are some interesting trends which could make electric bicycles considerably more attractive for those niches.

    1) Bicycles profited greatly in the last decade from considerable progress in practically every relevant performance area from suspension to brakes with ever lighter weight. High quality is found at good prices thanks to massive economies of scale. Expensive full suspension bikes are now approaching ten kilos.

    2) Electric bikes have made huge strides in the last five years with pretty much every big name in the industry pushing them into every sector of the market. Big companies like Bosch and Yamaha became key suppliers. eBikes profit of course strongly from the overall developments concerning that key element, the battery. In some European countries more then 1 in 10 new bikes is already electric. Lots of additional power and speed in difficult terrain. Still quite silent.

    3) Fatbikes are also a huge trend, capturing a wider share of the market. With fat tyres and low pressures down under 0.5 bar they have a far lower ground pressure. Sandy areas and snowy ones become more accessible.

    The whole two-wheel scene is in movement with the big player KTM launching their Freeride E. A hybrid ICE-electric bike seems to get developed for testing for the US military. Personally I think there will be new types moving into the markets between the enduro/all-mountain bicycle and the classic ICE enduros. For example where would a electric full-suspension fatbike enduro-style with two wheel hub motors and a powerful battery fit? In some cases a very light, cheap and simple folding bike might be the better choice then the fancy new stuff. So all in all lots of things happening right now.

    I will leave it at that for now. If a moderator thinks there is a better place to put this topic he should move it there.
    Last edited by Firn; 08-20-2014 at 09:37 PM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

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    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

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    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    1) So why might electric-assisted bikes be a good idea for some niches?

    It is of course difficult to imagine a whole company of light infantry biking from A to B as happened a hundred years ago. As stated before there are several interesting, if restricted uses:

    a) Possibly the most interesting use of such an ebike might be as a light additional vehicle to support various little tasks like reconnaissance, observation, communication and traffic control. With around 25 kg it is light, if unwieldy, it could be easily slapped on various vehicles from trucks to scout cars. A relative cheap price means that losing it/leaving it behind for various reasons is far from a big deal.

    For example an ebiker could quickly and silently reach a point of interest like the vicinity an potential OP or LP over a narrow trail.* He may rapidly distribute a couple of small sensors like mini-cameras at various locations. Or quickly reach a section of a road to direct traffic, bypassing it with little problems. With a push-assist it might be quite useful in quite difficult terrain to support a squad over a not-so short distance.

    2) Why wouldn't mature ICE bikes be the better choice in those?

    Compared to proper motorcycles like enduros it might have some big advantages:

    a) Lightness
    b) Silent operation
    c) Ease of use
    d) Lower price
    e) Development potential

    Of course there should be big disavantages as well:

    a) Range
    b) Refueling/Recharging
    c) Speed
    d) Load capacity
    e) Maturity

    Obviously both approaches can co-exist and most of the mentioned points are tendencies.

    I will continue later on those and try to go into more details. So far for most applications something around an Macina freeze or Macina Lycon 27.5 GP+ with push-assist and a more powerful engine is in my mind. 2WD might be an option.°


    *The bike battery might be used to recharge various others in stuff from micro-drones to communication gear.

    °Right now the weight seems to be spend better for something else like more battery power. Compared to ICE motorcycle it is far easier and less cumbersome to add.
    Last edited by Firn; 08-24-2014 at 09:46 PM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Mountain bikes are a bit of an obsession of mine, though I've never used a bike with motor assist.

    One problem likely to be encountered with military use is that the bicycle has limited adaptability to carrying weight, and troops these days carry a lot of that. A load on the rider's back is very unstable at speed and not healthy for the rider: a standing or walking position allows you to carry a load primarily on you hips; a natural cycling position does not, and any load on the back tends to put a lot of stress on the rider's lower back, especially on uneven terrain. The traditional solutions, panniers and handlebar bags, have limited capacity.

    There would likely be some application for quick quiet movement over relatively friendly terrain with minimal load, but on a large scale, I don't know. I would be curious to see how much the US military could manage to spend on a bicycle, though!
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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    Question #1: Do the bikes necessarily need to be ridden, or is it enough to strap a load to them and walk alongside? I'm thinking of PAVN troops on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, not so much mounted Swiss troops. Perhaps a bike or two per section or squad might take a significant portion of the load off the backs of some of the dismounts patrolling in Afghanistan.

    Question #2: Would an e-bike be capable of charging batteries like the BB-2590/U in a practical manner?

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    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Mountain bikes are a bit of an obsession of mine, though I've never used a bike with motor assist.
    I had my fair share of fun over the last months with a 29er hardtail with a Bosch 250w crank drive motor. Usually it is said to be 'ganzo' or somewhat of a 'tractor'. It is rather impressive how it climbs on steep stuff, feels safe if not nimble and is easy to use. The mighty increase in torque* means that on soft, loose ground traction and flotation are far more often the limiting factor for that ebike than power. This is why an electric fatbike interests me so much that I will certainly test the macina freeze by KTM.

    One problem likely to be encountered with military use is that the bicycle has limited adaptability to carrying weight, and troops these days carry a lot of that. A load on the rider's back is very unstable at speed and not healthy for the rider: a standing or walking position allows you to carry a load primarily on you hips; a natural cycling position does not, and any load on the back tends to put a lot of stress on the rider's lower back, especially on uneven terrain. The traditional solutions, panniers and handlebar bags, have limited capacity.
    The touring bike market seems to have come up with more and more solutions to carry loads in a practical manner, but bikes are still rather limited as you rightly point out. The latest Swiss military bike 12 shows that a full-suspension bike makes some methods quite complicated. I have no experience with bike touring so I will leave it there for now.

    While I see such ebikes more in support and recce troops then combat the potentially very heavy burden of soldier plus load compared to a fit biker with his light gear is indeed a big problem. Full-supension, engine and fat tyres should help a great deal to increase the ride comfort and mobility and make it easier to drive in more challenging terrain. While it will be far harder to haul/carry over obstacles the relative new 'push-assist' makes it rather easy to push so equipped ebikes up steep slopes. Adjustable regen breaking is also a plus. This is of course relevant to the question raised by Biggus:

    Question #1: Do the bikes necessarily need to be ridden, or is it enough to strap a load to them and walk alongside? I'm thinking of PAVN troops on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, not so much mounted Swiss troops. Perhaps a bike or two per section or squad might take a significant portion of the load off the backs of some of the dismounts patrolling in Afghanistan.
    I'm a bit sceptical on that, but military forces with low budgets and low personal costs might make a good of cheap Chinese ebikes or eScooters. About question 2, it should be quite possible to design a bike battery which right now have mostly 400W from which you can recharge other gear.


    *Torque is of course a big strenght of electric engines. It is important to point out the following about pedelecs:

    The most influential definition which defines which e-bikes are pedelecs and which are not, comes from the EU and as such is valid across the whole of Europe. From the EU directive (EN15194 standard) for motor vehicles, a bicycle is considered a pedelec if:

    i) the pedal-assist, i.e. the motorised assistance that only engages when the rider is pedalling, cuts out once 25 km/h is reached, and
    ii) when the motor produces maximum continuous rated power of not more than 250 watts (n.b. the motor can produce more power for short periods, such as when the rider is struggling to get up a steep hill).

    An e-bike conforming to these conditions is considered to be a pedelec and is legally classed as a bicycle
    Last edited by Firn; 08-25-2014 at 07:55 PM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post
    I had my fair share of fun over the last months with a 29er hardtail with a Bosch 250w crank drive motor. Usually it is said to be 'ganzo' or somewhat of a 'tractor'. It is rather impressive how it climbs on steep stuff, feels safe if not nimble and is easy to use. The mighty increase in torque* means that on soft, loose ground traction and flotation are far more often the limiting factor for that ebike than power. This is why an electric fatbike interests me so much that I will certainly test the macina freeze by KTM.
    I confess that I'm a bit of a Luddite when it comes to cycling innovation: I think most of what passes for "innovation" lately is just the industry trying to come up with new stuff for cyclists to buy, and a lot of the supposed innovations mean very little in terms of performance. I still use 26" wheels (I ride technical trails and big wheels just feel clumsy) and a 2x9 drivetrain. A few years ago the industry was saying everyone has to be on 2x10, now they all want us to go 1x11. I think they are just trying to sell stuff.

    I don't get the whole fatbike thing at all, unless you ride a lot on snow, which most people don't. In mud they will be a liability: you'll sink in anyway and have to plow all that tire through.

    I can see how motor assist would be useful to people who use a bike as a tool, as would be the case in any military scenario. No interest in using it myself: the whole point is to do it myself! I have to wonder about the durability and maintenance issues, though, another consideration for military use: you'd have to have bike mechanics along wherever there are bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post
    The touring bike market seems to have come up with more and more solutions to carry loads in a practical manner, but bikes are still rather limited as you rightly point out. The latest Swiss military bike 12 shows that a full-suspension bike makes some methods quite complicated. I have no experience with bike touring so I will leave it there for now.
    Putting a rack over the rear wheel is complicated with a full suspension bike, because the rear triangle is not static relative to the front triangle, making it complicated to fix the rack to both. With any bike, putting any significant weight over the rear wheel produces a strong tendency for the front to lift while climbing steep hills. A bag under the top tube can work but it has to be very narrow to avoid chafing on the legs. My solution on multiday rides is to put high bulk/low weight items (extra clothing) on the back, high weight/low bulk items like tools, spares, camera in a handlebar bag, and food/water in a small backpack. The key is to keep weight very minimal (10kg absolute max, usually less) and distribute it around the bike. Too much weight in the front, the rear, or high up is dangerously unstable at any speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post
    Full-supension, engine and fat tyres should help a great deal to increase the ride comfort and mobility and make it easier to drive in more challenging terrain. While it will be far harder to haul/carry over obstacles the relative new 'push-assist' makes it rather easy to push so equipped ebikes up steep slopes. Adjustable regen breaking is also a plus.
    Suspension, tires, and bakes have some impact but do not change the fundamental problem of trying to carry a large load on your back while riding a bicycle. A backpack works while standing straight up by shifting the load to the hips. On a bike you're leaning forward, so the load goes onto your lower back, not the best place for it to be. Plus at any speed inertia comes into play, which means that when you turn the bike that load wants to keep going in a straight line. The consequences are not always pleasant.

    It's also true that while a skilled rider on a mt bike can move fast over quite difficult terrain, this requires skill and a great deal of practice. If less skilled people try to do it, especially under large loads, accidents and injuries will result. Adding mt biking to a training rotation would probably be fun, but I'm not sure how practical it would be!
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”

    H.L. Mencken

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