Sir,Originally Posted by George L. Singleton
I read this comment with great irony since GEN Petraeus and all three O6s mentioned by name in the article are West Pointers.
Cheers.
Shek
Sir,
I read this comment with great irony since GEN Petraeus and all three O6s mentioned by name in the article are West Pointers.
Cheers.
Shek
It was probably only a flash in the pan, but I had an opportunity to experience the 4th ID firsthand in mid-April, during the RIP between their elements moving north to Tikrit and TF Tripoli.No doubt that there were different situations and had units with different organic capabilities. However, having worked for a few weeks alongside 4ID and for a few weeks alongside 101, there was a world of difference, and much further beyond what just the different situations would create.
We were coiled up north of Samarra, basking in the joy of finally receiving packages and mail, when OH-58s and Apaches appeared over the long line of HETs that were dragging gear north to Tikrit. It was a little bit uncomfortable to watch an Apache circling the battalion TAA, tracking personnel on the ground with the slaved chain gun. Definitely a WTFO moment. It didn't stop there though, and within 15 minutes of the air troop's arrival, we had to call in our patrols because the Apaches began firing rockets, guns, and Hellfires at hell knows what across the highway, only a klick or so away. Needless to say, we were not impressed.
Dang marct, you hit one homerun after another! Perusing the Marine Corps career track webpages, I see several fellowships that put folks into the corporate world for a short tour, as well as graduate learning environments, but am not sure what that gets us.What I was trying to get at was the ability to look at a problem at from several angles, especially to include those that you disagree with or may not have otherwise ever thought of (e.g. the conservation with a NGO member) so that you can arrive at a solution that has thought through all the possibilities. Thus, as the proverbial saying goes, not all problems look like nails wanting a hammer to fix them.
How about a fellowship with the ICRC or other relief affiliated agency? I know, lot's of baggage with a Marine infantry officer sitting in on a relief delivery planning session, but perhaps these are just the walls we need to be breaking down.
J,
Your NGO fellowships have been proposed within the Army, but I have no idea what traction they've gained. At the cadet level, we run a bunch of summer trips that do NGO work, and are just now expanding the program to ROTC and the other service academies (where there is $$, there's a way!). While several weeks is not the same as a year, I'm sure that this short experience at such a junior part of one's career is a solid formative experience for company grade level ops.
Cheers.
Shek
But the key advisor is not a West Pointer!
Well said, and well taken.
However, General Petraeus has chosen as his chief advisor on counterinsurgency operations Australian Lt. Colonel David Kilcullen, who I believe is not a West Pointer, or am I wrong on that one? Like my late Uncle, Rear Admiral Art Gavin, graduate of U. of Wisconsin, who as a Navy 05 was put directly in command of all Navy and Army aviation in the Panama Canal Zone by the Secretary of War in Dec., 1941, immediately after Pearl Harbor. Art surely was hated by many brass hat and fat bottom Army and Navy flag ranks and senior 06s, but he was the best and right guy for that job at that time. I view Lt. Colonel Kilcullen, who is additionally a PhD, as in that mold and wish him well, too!
I am a USAF OTS product, commissioned Feb., 1963. Served as a Det. Commander with the old US Embassy in Karachi, then West Pakistan, housed with a bunch of you green suiters in a MAAG staff house next door to the Army 08 head of the USMAAG to Pakistan. His aide was my housemate and that aide, a lifelong friend since Karachi days, is now himself a retired 08, and was #2 in his class at West Point of 1958.
My job in Karachi from 1963-1965 was as USAF Liaison Officer for the Commander, 6937th USAFSS Group, ie, the base commander, US Air Base (U-2s) at Peshawar. As a Second and First Lieutenant this was a unique assignment but I grew and learned from all concerned, as I surely didn't know a damn thing at the get go!
The service academies are well and good, but many flag rank officers today did not graduate from the academies. Same applies to many fine 06s of all services today.
I turned down as a reserve officer 07 reserve promotion opportunity as the Air Force wanted me to come back on active duty for 8+ months to understudy with the four star then heading up US Space Systems Command. I could not spare the time, etc. away from civilian job and a young family, wife and three small children, and an aged Mom in an Alabama nursing home, who I essentially supported.
Taking USAF Reserve non-unit, largely purple suiter slots my last 12 years in the Air Force Reserve, by dumb luck, coupled with doing all the advanced schools, service and NWC courses, too, helped me as an "old man" make 06.
Colonel was and is good enough for me, when I would have been happy to retire as a Major. *I had been wounded as a non-combatant in the January, 1965 earliest phase of the India-Pakistan War in the Rann of Kutch, so when I left regular active duty in late 1967 did not join the USAF reserve until four years later, in part due to slow recovery from spinal wound from 1965 Rann of Kutch, etc. I limped like hell and hurt like hell for a few years before "rebouding."
Back to the task at hand, the War on Terrorism and in Iraq/Afghanistan. My wife and I were roundtrip on a Space A (Alabama Air Guard refuelding tanker) vacation July, 2006 in Germany and France (and in Belgium and Luxembourg).
At the American Cemetary at Normandy we met a group of 60 Dutch and US Special Forces, headed up by a senior Dutch NCO. They were all in less than two weeks from when we met them (beside Brigadier Roosevelt's grave, the son of President Teddy Roosevelt, killed at Normandy D-Day Landing) headed into Afghanistan. Having been there (Afghanistan and Pakistan) during 1963-1965, I was able to share some cultural, ethnic, linguistic, and religious experiences that I would hope may have been of some small benefit to these men, and to their mission and personal safety. The Dutch senior NCO made me feel good when he said very low key that he and his men were touring the American Cemetary as boys all under age 30, some in their late teens, to understand better that freedom is not free.
To close on a humerous note. One cousin by marriage is a West Pointer, retired as a Regular Army 05. The other cousin by marriage, (both married to my second cousins who are sisters) is a retired Regular Army 06, University of Alabama ROTC commissoned. If the 05 had used any degree of humility, he, too, could have retired as an 06.
My forte with USSOCOM, and it's predecessor, USREDCOM, and with TDY active duty orders short tours as a reservist with MAC (I ran the airlift in January, 1991 for Desert Storm out of Charleston); with FORSCOM (Peruvian and Bolivian drug wars in late 1980s); and CINCLANT (Admiral Kelso, the famous Navy pilots party CO) my last 10-12 years in the USAF Reserve, as a part time purple suiter, was computerized wargamming using Star Wars big bucks to set up the and help operate the JCS Wargaming Center at Ft. Lewis, which we later moved to it's current location at Hurlburt Field, FL. We developed the pc gamed scenarios and exercises that led to your battlefield pc fighting technology that helps you win and the enemy loose in firefights and such.
I am a mean old free thinker, who worked firing programs for Marine Corp artillery with the best of them, as an unusual example. Coordination of Navy ship bombardments and USAF planes bombardment. Computer gamed as well as tried in the field use of rough field ad hoc flying sites using C-130s and C-10s was a snap after dealing with mundane routing of support flights into and out of Peshawar "around K-2" the second highest peak in the Himalayas, by contrast, in 1963-1965.
I just hope that the Army isn't so short sighted as to "only" give PhDs to West Pointers. Other officers commissioned from other sources are just as bright, and very innovative, too. Not that many West Pointers aren't innovate, but I am biased that many of the West Pointers I knew in years gone by were to focused on their personal career advancement vs. doing the best job possible, whatever it was, for the corporate benefit, as in today's case, of beating back and down a multigenerational fight with radical Islam.
Serving the cause of our nation and the free world, to me, in my own career, part time though much of it was (only the first 6 years out of total 31 years military service were active duty) should in my book always come before personal ambition. Study the situation, apply your actual experiences, say what you think needs to be said and learned from, and don't worry about whether this will or won't profile you as one of "the boys" of the "ring knocker" old club for career enhancement.
Not meaning to insult anyone, but you have my blunt opinions.
Cheers,
George L. Singleton, Colonel, USAF, Ret. (perhaps too much rank for such a blunt outspoken redneck boy from Tennessee and Alabama)
GSingle556@aol.com
PS - Keeping our forces committed to Iraq smaller in number was not a mistake in my view. The mistake to me has been the belated forcing of Iraqis to shoulder as much of the fight as possible sooner, but damn slow elections and constutitional process wasted a bunch of time, in my opinion. Too, I would have and would now find a way to use Turkish troops by the division load! Airlift them over the Kurds. GS.
Last edited by George L. Singleton; 02-06-2007 at 12:56 PM.
GS:
Sir,
I wasn't trying to explicitly or implicitly speak of any superiority of West Pointers, just that whatever favoritism and/or groupthink might have once existed along commissioning lines does not exist anymore, at least at the macro-level. I'm sure that there may be small, limited examples that some can point out, but these would be the exception and not the norm.
Instead, the groupthink that exists does so along institutional fiefdoms/fault lines: SOF vs. conventional, light vs. heavy, etc., regardless of commissioning source. Iraq is serving to break many of these "traditional" lines of resistance between the groups, having been forced to work with each other to get jobs done.
As far as the educational opportunities available, there is no institutional "discrimination" among commissioning sources. However, this doesn't mean that they are necessarily equal. For example, the opportunities available for OCS commissioned officers probably used to be less when they were allowed onto active duty with only two years of undergraduate study - two years of their active duty time would already be dedicated to the degree completion program (DCP), limiting available time for further studies, which would be at the graduate level. However, for the past five years or so, OCS candidates have been required to have their undergraduate degree already, so this constraint doesn't exist with current year groups entering into the window for selection for grad school. Another possible example would be ROTC officers applying for USMA rotating faculty positions. There is no selection discrimination; however, some ROTC commissioned officers may not be aware of the opportunity, and so this could shrink the pool of potential ROTC commissioned officers being selected.
Additionally, the recent introduction of the graduate school for active duty service obligation (GRADSO) program, where cadets can sign up for the option for guaranteed graduate school at their school of choice (stateside) in return for extending their service obligation by three years, distributes slots on a relatively equal basis.
http://www.usma.edu/opa/adso/
So, in the end, I would concur fully with CSC2005's thought that these officers were selected based on their ability to contribute, not because of their commissioning source.
Cheers,
Shek
Grad School Programs
Just a couple of notes on grad school and masters programs inside and outside the Army:Additionally, the recent introduction of the graduate school for active duty service obligation (GRADSO) program, where cadets can sign up for the option for guaranteed graduate school at their school of choice (stateside) in return for extending their service obligation by three years, distributes slots on a relatively equal basis
A. Reference the current GRADSO program, it is a recent shift in programs versus an innovation. I attended grad school as part of the GRADSO program of the 1970s as a DMG top 5% on the graduate record exam.
B. Masters programs have been around in the Army for some time as well. The MMAS program at Leavenworth is quite good whether you do it via SAMS on a 2-year or you take the extra load required to finish it in a year. I did mine in a year and I recommend to all Leavenworth bound officers that they at least consider the MMAS.
Gratefully these progras are coming back--they went into near extinction in the 1990s aside from the handful of officers who are FAOs or West Point instructors.
Best
Tom
Having done both ROTC and West Point there are pro's and cons to each, but discussing those pro's and cons, in most cases, is little more than splitting hairs these days. As far as advantages go, the Army is pretty much a level ground as far as commissioning source vs. success. As far as masters programs go, From the mid 1990's until about 2 years ago, there were few opportunities to get a masters or higher degree if you stayed in your basic branch, your two choices were night school/correspondance course on your own, or go to Wetst Point and teach (which equals 5 years out of the field army). Other than that, you pretty much had to become a FAO or another functional area speciality to go to grad school, and face a choice at your Career Field Designation board that you probably were not going to be CFD'd into your . The Army is now offering slots for post command captains to go to grad school and remain in their basic branch. The Army has yet to be directive as to what you will study, but I believe that is coming.
Jim
Sir,
Keep in mind, that's a lifetime for me. Under the GRADSO program you completed, were you able to go immediately upon commissioning, or was it restricted until after company command as its current reincarnation does?
Cheers,
Shek
GRADSO Circa 1976-1980
I know I am an old fartKeep in mind, that's a lifetime for me .After 6 orthopedic operations --4 since retirement--the local surgeons call me when their business gets slow to see if I need a new tune up.
But on the GRADSO program as I knew it, we were given the choice. You could go straight to grad school as a new 2LT or delay. You just had to start inside 5 years of commissionng. I did a tour with the 82d (we used C130s, C123s, and C141s--not C119s or C47s), my advanced course, and then started at the Naval Postgraduate School as a MidEast FAO wanna be. That got me into the FAO field earlier than most.
Best
Tom
Tom - the GRADSO, PADSO and BRADSO career service incentives are substantial innovations. With these programs the Army has made "willingness to serve" a figure of merit along with military and academic order of merit. As such, these programs figure significantly in the distribution of fully funded graduate school, commissioning branch and initial duty station to ROTC and USMA cadets. In particular, the GRADSO program is exceptionally innovative in that it functions much like a stock option. Cadets selecting the GRADSO option secure the option to secure a fully funded masters degree between their sixth and eleventh year of service. Under GRADSO they can attend any graduate program of their choosing in the United States for up to 22 months. Thus, if an officer desires to pursue a Masters of Engineering at MIT and he/she has the scores to gain admittance, he/she can attend MIT. As an added innovation, officers can "pay ahead" up to two years of "3-for-1" service obligation entailed in attending graduate education. This feature of the program is much different from traditional graduate school programs in that officers can "pay-down" their graduate school service obligation prior to actually beginning graduate school. This adds flexibility to the program so that officers can better manage their careers and still allow officers to complete their graduate school service obligation by sixteen years of service. Heretofore, with the exception of winners of Hertz, Rhodes and other scholarship programs, typical USMA and ROTC cadets had no ability to secure access to graduate school prior to commissioning. Moreover, the Army had linked attendance at graduate school to a subsequent service in a "utilization" tour. With GRADSO, continued service in the Army constitutes "utilization." This allows operational field officers to return to troop assignments immediately after graduate school. As an innovation, the GRADSO, BRADSO and PADSO options are designed to increase junior officer control over key aspects of their career and development so as to increase their career satisfaction. Additionally, the GRADSO option is designed to achieve two other objects. First, with GRADSO, new officers can be certain that they will be afforded the opportunity to attend graduate school at mid-career. Graduate education at this point will provide these officers with the means to update their general human capital as they begin to move from service in general leadership fields to specialized fields entailed in service as a field grade officer. As such, this investment in human capital will add to these officers’ productivity as Army leaders. Officer participating in the GRADSO program can also expected to garner a permanent and substantial increase in their expected lifetime earnings after military service. As such, GRADSO benefits the Army and participating officers. Since the Army launched the GRADSO, BRADSO, and PADSO incentives in 2006 about 33% of USMA graduates and 45% of eligible ROTC graduates have participated one or combinations of these programs. As a result, by 2014 the number of officers attending graduate schools within each year group will rise from about 400 today to 1000. This investment by the Army marks a strategic choice to substantially expanded resources (time and dollars) to develop adaptive leaders for the challenges that lie ahead.
That is all great news. I have over the past couple of years seen a couple of officers take one of these programs. I especially like the idea that one can prepay obligation and that continued service meets the obligation versus the old "ute tour" requirement.
Thought about getting out around my 10-11 year mark and I asked FAO branch was there an obligation to an in-country tour when I had already served a "ute". They made the mistake of saying, "we don't know. Try it and find out."
The next call they got was from the DA IG's office. I stayed in obviously but I know that some wished I had not.
Anyway welcome aboard and thanks for the post. Do two things for us{
a. Break up your paragraphs. Ken and Old Eagle get lost in such long paragraphs.
b. Introduce yourself here so we can place your contributions in context.
Best
Tom
I got lost
in that paragraph...
Commissioning officers with only two years of college
QUESTION: Does or does not Marion Military Institute in Marion, Perry County, Alabama, our nation's oldest (founded circa 1842) military prep school and junior college, still commission Associate Degree Second Lieutenants for the Army, who then have to complete the remaining two years of college for a full BA or BS while on active duty for an initial period of "x" number of years? Or is that source and commissioning procedure no longer used?
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