Officers With PhDs Advising War Effort

[Shek]

GS:

Sir,

I wasn't trying to explicitly or implicitly speak of any superiority of West Pointers, just that whatever favoritism and/or groupthink might have once existed along commissioning lines does not exist anymore, at least at the macro-level. I'm sure that there may be small, limited examples that some can point out, but these would be the exception and not the norm.

Instead, the groupthink that exists does so along institutional fiefdoms/fault lines: SOF vs. conventional, light vs. heavy, etc., regardless of commissioning source. Iraq is serving to break many of these "traditional" lines of resistance between the groups, having been forced to work with each other to get jobs done.

As far as the educational opportunities available, there is no institutional "discrimination" among commissioning sources. However, this doesn't mean that they are necessarily equal. For example, the opportunities available for OCS commissioned officers probably used to be less when they were allowed onto active duty with only two years of undergraduate study - two years of their active duty time would already be dedicated to the degree completion program (DCP), limiting available time for further studies, which would be at the graduate level. However, for the past five years or so, OCS candidates have been required to have their undergraduate degree already, so this constraint doesn't exist with current year groups entering into the window for selection for grad school. Another possible example would be ROTC officers applying for USMA rotating faculty positions. There is no selection discrimination; however, some ROTC commissioned officers may not be aware of the opportunity, and so this could shrink the pool of potential ROTC commissioned officers being selected.

Additionally, the recent introduction of the graduate school for active duty service obligation (GRADSO) program, where cadets can sign up for the option for guaranteed graduate school at their school of choice (stateside) in return for extending their service obligation by three years, distributes slots on a relatively equal basis.

http://www.usma.edu/opa/adso/

So, in the end, I would concur fully with CSC2005's thought that these officers were selected based on their ability to contribute, not because of their commissioning source.

Cheers,

Shek

[Tom Odom]

Additionally, the recent introduction of the graduate school for active duty service obligation (GRADSO) program, where cadets can sign up for the option for guaranteed graduate school at their school of choice (stateside) in return for extending their service obligation by three years, distributes slots on a relatively equal basis

Just a couple of notes on grad school and masters programs inside and outside the Army:

A. Reference the current GRADSO program, it is a recent shift in programs versus an innovation. I attended grad school as part of the GRADSO program of the 1970s as a DMG top 5% on the graduate record exam.

B. Masters programs have been around in the Army for some time as well. The MMAS program at Leavenworth is quite good whether you do it via SAMS on a 2-year or you take the extra load required to finish it in a year. I did mine in a year and I recommend to all Leavenworth bound officers that they at least consider the MMAS.

Gratefully these progras are coming back--they went into near extinction in the 1990s aside from the handful of officers who are FAOs or West Point instructors.

Best

Tom

[Jimbo]

Having done both ROTC and West Point there are pro's and cons to each, but discussing those pro's and cons, in most cases, is little more than splitting hairs these days. As far as advantages go, the Army is pretty much a level ground as far as commissioning source vs. success. As far as masters programs go, From the mid 1990's until about 2 years ago, there were few opportunities to get a masters or higher degree if you stayed in your basic branch, your two choices were night school/correspondance course on your own, or go to Wetst Point and teach (which equals 5 years out of the field army). Other than that, you pretty much had to become a FAO or another functional area speciality to go to grad school, and face a choice at your Career Field Designation board that you probably were not going to be CFD'd into your . The Army is now offering slots for post command captains to go to grad school and remain in their basic branch. The Army has yet to be directive as to what you will study, but I believe that is coming.


Jim

[Shek]

Reference the current GRADSO program, it is a recent shift in programs versus an innovation. I attended grad school as part of the GRADSO program of the 1970s as a DMG top 5% on the graduate record exam.

Sir,
Keep in mind, that's a lifetime for me . Under the GRADSO program you completed, were you able to go immediately upon commissioning, or was it restricted until after company command as its current reincarnation does?

Cheers,

Shek

[Tom Odom]

Keep in mind, that's a lifetime for me .

I know I am an old fart After 6 orthopedic operations --4 since retirement--the local surgeons call me when their business gets slow to see if I need a new tune up.

But on the GRADSO program as I knew it, we were given the choice. You could go straight to grad school as a new 2LT or delay. You just had to start inside 5 years of commissionng. I did a tour with the 82d (we used C130s, C123s, and C141s--not C119s or C47s), my advanced course, and then started at the Naval Postgraduate School as a MidEast FAO wanna be. That got me into the FAO field earlier than most.

Best

Tom

[C Wardynski]

Tom - the GRADSO, PADSO and BRADSO career service incentives are substantial innovations. With these programs the Army has made "willingness to serve" a figure of merit along with military and academic order of merit. As such, these programs figure significantly in the distribution of fully funded graduate school, commissioning branch and initial duty station to ROTC and USMA cadets. In particular, the GRADSO program is exceptionally innovative in that it functions much like a stock option. Cadets selecting the GRADSO option secure the option to secure a fully funded masters degree between their sixth and eleventh year of service. Under GRADSO they can attend any graduate program of their choosing in the United States for up to 22 months. Thus, if an officer desires to pursue a Masters of Engineering at MIT and he/she has the scores to gain admittance, he/she can attend MIT. As an added innovation, officers can "pay ahead" up to two years of "3-for-1" service obligation entailed in attending graduate education. This feature of the program is much different from traditional graduate school programs in that officers can "pay-down" their graduate school service obligation prior to actually beginning graduate school. This adds flexibility to the program so that officers can better manage their careers and still allow officers to complete their graduate school service obligation by sixteen years of service. Heretofore, with the exception of winners of Hertz, Rhodes and other scholarship programs, typical USMA and ROTC cadets had no ability to secure access to graduate school prior to commissioning. Moreover, the Army had linked attendance at graduate school to a subsequent service in a "utilization" tour. With GRADSO, continued service in the Army constitutes "utilization." This allows operational field officers to return to troop assignments immediately after graduate school. As an innovation, the GRADSO, BRADSO and PADSO options are designed to increase junior officer control over key aspects of their career and development so as to increase their career satisfaction. Additionally, the GRADSO option is designed to achieve two other objects. First, with GRADSO, new officers can be certain that they will be afforded the opportunity to attend graduate school at mid-career. Graduate education at this point will provide these officers with the means to update their general human capital as they begin to move from service in general leadership fields to specialized fields entailed in service as a field grade officer. As such, this investment in human capital will add to these officers’ productivity as Army leaders. Officer participating in the GRADSO program can also expected to garner a permanent and substantial increase in their expected lifetime earnings after military service. As such, GRADSO benefits the Army and participating officers. Since the Army launched the GRADSO, BRADSO, and PADSO incentives in 2006 about 33% of USMA graduates and 45% of eligible ROTC graduates have participated one or combinations of these programs. As a result, by 2014 the number of officers attending graduate schools within each year group will rise from about 400 today to 1000. This investment by the Army marks a strategic choice to substantially expanded resources (time and dollars) to develop adaptive leaders for the challenges that lie ahead.

[Tom Odom]

That is all great news. I have over the past couple of years seen a couple of officers take one of these programs. I especially like the idea that one can prepay obligation and that continued service meets the obligation versus the old "ute tour" requirement.

Thought about getting out around my 10-11 year mark and I asked FAO branch was there an obligation to an in-country tour when I had already served a "ute". They made the mistake of saying, "we don't know. Try it and find out."

The next call they got was from the DA IG's office. I stayed in obviously but I know that some wished I had not.

Anyway welcome aboard and thanks for the post. Do two things for us{

a. Break up your paragraphs. Ken and Old Eagle get lost in such long paragraphs.

b. Introduce yourself here so we can place your contributions in context.

Best

Tom

[Ken White]

...a. Break up your paragraphs. Ken and Old Eagle get lost in such long paragraphs.

in that paragraph...

[George L. Singleton]

GS:

Sir,

I wasn't trying to explicitly or implicitly speak of any superiority of West Pointers, just that whatever favoritism and/or groupthink might have once existed along commissioning lines does not exist anymore, at least at the macro-level. I'm sure that there may be small, limited examples that some can point out, but these would be the exception and not the norm.

Instead, the groupthink that exists does so along institutional fiefdoms/fault lines: SOF vs. conventional, light vs. heavy, etc., regardless of commissioning source. Iraq is serving to break many of these "traditional" lines of resistance between the groups, having been forced to work with each other to get jobs done.

As far as the educational opportunities available, there is no institutional "discrimination" among commissioning sources. However, this doesn't mean that they are necessarily equal. For example, the opportunities available for OCS commissioned officers probably used to be less when they were allowed onto active duty with only two years of undergraduate study - two years of their active duty time would already be dedicated to the degree completion program (DCP), limiting available time for further studies, which would be at the graduate level. However, for the past five years or so, OCS candidates have been required to have their undergraduate degree already, so this constraint doesn't exist with current year groups entering into the window for selection for grad school. Another possible example would be ROTC officers applying for USMA rotating faculty positions. There is no selection discrimination; however, some ROTC commissioned officers may not be aware of the opportunity, and so this could shrink the pool of potential ROTC commissioned officers being selected.

Additionally, the recent introduction of the graduate school for active duty service obligation (GRADSO) program, where cadets can sign up for the option for guaranteed graduate school at their school of choice (stateside) in return for extending their service obligation by three years, distributes slots on a relatively equal basis.

http://www.usma.edu/opa/adso/

So, in the end, I would concur fully with CSC2005's thought that these officers were selected based on their ability to contribute, not because of their commissioning source.

Cheers,

Shek

QUESTION: Does or does not Marion Military Institute in Marion, Perry County, Alabama, our nation's oldest (founded circa 1842) military prep school and junior college, still commission Associate Degree Second Lieutenants for the Army, who then have to complete the remaining two years of college for a full BA or BS while on active duty for an initial period of "x" number of years? Or is that source and commissioning procedure no longer used?