Officers With PhDs Advising War Effort

[sullygoarmy]

Jimbo - good to see you up on the net. I've been pretty busy the past month on TDY trips to Iraq, Germany and recently, Fort Riley. Headed out to work with the marines in Cali next week.

Reference 1st BDE, 1st ID training the transition teams, all the current teams now go through an indepth training program at Fort Riley under 1-1 ID. I was out there last week with my boss pitching a fundamentals of Advisor work to the OC-Ts. On our tour through Iraq, alot of the feedback from the current advisors indicated they would have liked to had more advisor training prior to getting in theater. We gave classes to the 1-1 ID OC-Ts to "plant the seed" in the minds of our future advisors on what their roles, functions and challenges are and will be.

[Jimbo]

Sully,

Damn, you guys have been busy. Dave and I are freezing our butts off here in D.C. It is weird wearing a suit to work everyday. The interagency issue is like banging my head against the wall on cetain days. Tomorow is a uniform day as I am over at the Pentagon all day. All I got to say is parking is easier at Leavenworth than around here, glad I take the metro in the morning.


Jim

[wm]

Just thought you might like to know that the current MNSTC-I commander (Petraeus' replacement), LTG Marty Dempsey, has an MA from Duke in English Lit. His proposed replacement, LTG Jim Dubik, currently commanding I Corps, has a Philosophy Masters (from Hopkins I think)--both taught in the English Department at USMA in the 80s. I was a philosophy prof and overlapped with Marty (and with another guy, named Petraeus, who was teaching Social Sciences at the time). The CG down at Knox these days, MG Bob Williams, is another USMA English Department Alum (philosophy MA from Emory) from the same time period, as is the Deputy US MIL Rep at NATO (BG John Adams, English MA, UMASS-Amherst). Another up and coming guy, COL (P) Jeff Smith, was with us too--MA in English from UC-Berkley (I think he has since gotten the Ph.D too).

The head of the English Department, BG (ret) Jack Capps, used to call us "the lunatic fringe." We were the element at USMA that taught critical appraisal and pushed our students to question their world, while all around them the rest of the Academy emphasized the notion of "cooperate and graduate." Cadet slang for the required philosophy class was "Drugs" as in "you have to be on drugs to understand what is going on in that class." We definitely encouraged out of the box thought .

I think the level of advanced degree is less important than the place of study and the subject matter. Graduate studies in the humanities and social sciences tend to open one's mind to new possibilities, especially when one is a conservative military member attending school at a hot bed of liberalism like a Princeton, a Duke, or a UC Berkely in the early 80s. I remember having a great time trying to justify our invasion of Grenada to my fellow grad students and the Philosophy faculty at the University of Kansas.

[SWJED]

I think the level of advanced degree is less important than the place of study and the subject matter. Graduate studies in the humanities and social sciences tend to open one's mind to new possibilities, especially when one is a conservative military member attending school at a hot bed of liberalism like a Princeton, a Duke, or a UC Berkely in the early 80s. I remember having a great time trying to justify our invasion of Grenada to my fellow grad students and the Philosophy faculty at the University of Kansas.

While not directly on topic your comment brought back to me two items that have intrigued me concerning cultural understanding in an expeditionary environment. A SF officer told me that his group sent members to an Indian reservation to do humanitarian / construction missions - several Australian officers told me of a similar program where they sent Army officers and enlisted to Aborigine reservations to do the same. The thought process here was they would never be able to train for all the possible cultures they might encounter in the future – but they were firm in their belief that it was the “mindset” that was important – once you live in and learn one other culture it is easier to adapt and operate in additional cultures down the road. Basically - one was more open-minded concerning cultural understanding. They also commented that certain personalities amongst the service-members were more conducive to accepting other cultures… Wish I knew more about this but both instances were relayed to me in passing…

[Tom Odom]

While not directly on topic your comment brought back to me two items that have intrigued me concerning cultural understanding in an expeditionary environment. A SF officer told me that his group sent members to an Indian reservation to do humanitarian / construction missions - several Australian officers told me of a similar program where they sent Army officers and enlisted to Aborigine reservations to do the same. The thought process here was they would never be able to train for all the possible cultures they might encounter in the future – but they were firm in their belief that it was the “mindset” that was important – once you live in and learn one other culture it is easier to adapt and operate in additional cultures down the road. Basically - one was more open-minded concerning cultural understanding. They also commented that certain personalities amongst the service-members were more conducive to accepting other cultures… Wish I knew more about this but both instances were relayed to me in passing…

Dave,

That is the central core of cultural understanding--the mindset. That's why I harp on 2 base rules---you have to have the mindset. Even the best linguist in the world is useless and may in fact be harmful without that mental framework. I have talked this issue with SF and FAOs and others; I believe the selection process has to include some form of adaptabilty measurement.

Where I have faulted the Dept of State in the past is their "adaptability" measures are really focused on how adaptable applicants are to a European/US centric environment centered on class structures and associated definitions of what constitutes "higher culture." In many ways the OSS and then the CIA followed the same path in selection and recruitment with he major exception that the OSS/CIA has always been willing to head hunt among the military, especially for covert operations.

Again Dave, you got it!

Tom

[Jimbo]

I hated my English classes at West Point. I still cringe when I hear Walzer mentioned.

[George L. Singleton]

I hated my English classes at West Point. I still cringe when I hear Walzer mentioned.

Let us be careful as I have a young daughter, just complete two degrees at Vanderbilt, BS in English Lit, MEd in English Lit, now teaching 10th grade English Lit in a Williamson Co, TN high school. She did a 6 month overseas semester at U. of Edinburgh, as well, focused on Shakespeare.

Make English Lit your friend and you will discover it is actually both history and historical fiction. I was a history major myself in undergrad school.

Cheers

[George L. Singleton]

Dave,

That is the central core of cultural understanding--the mindset. That's why I harp on 2 base rules---you have to have the mindset. Even the best linguist in the world is useless and may in fact be harmful without that mental framework. I have talked this issue with SF and FAOs and others; I believe the selection process has to include some form of adaptabilty measurement.

Where I have faulted the Dept of State in the past is their "adaptability" measures are really focused on how adaptable applicants are to a European/US centric environment centered on class structures and associated definitions of what constitutes "higher culture." In many ways the OSS and then the CIA followed the same path in selection and recruitment with he major exception that the OSS/CIA has always been willing to head hunt among the military, especially for covert operations.

Again Dave, you got it!

Tom

With the several overseas Muslims I have had establish e-mail correspondence with me since my numerous overseas letters to ed in the Karachi DAWN; the Peshawar FRONTIER POST; THE TIMES OF INDIA; MOSCOW TIMES, etc., etc., folks such as a key JKLF youthful booster out of Bedford, England of Indian subcontinent parents but himself born in England; the retired Pak Foreign Office senior official who is the grandson of the 2X prior King of Afghansitan, etc., etc. it is the damned "mindset" and "tribal loyalty and mindset/association" coupled with whatever branch or version of Islam they subscribe to, Sunni, Shiia, lesser sect, etc. that overrules and will not, ever, deal with rational thought!!!! This whole area of the world is as bad now as it was in my day, difference being we have no "in common" enemy the way we did during the Cold War with USSR and Communism.

This is the issue and the problem now. Lack of a larger common enemy that "makes them and us" be allies, liking it or not, so to speak.

George Singleton

[marct]

Hi Tom,

That is the central core of cultural understanding--the mindset. That's why I harp on 2 base rules---you have to have the mindset. Even the best linguist in the world is useless and may in fact be harmful without that mental framework. I have talked this issue with SF and FAOs and others; I believe the selection process has to include some form of adaptabilty measurement.

Well, the process that we (Anthropologists) use is fairly well documented - I touch on it in that article of mine in vol. 7 of SWJ. You can train for that mindset since it is pretty rare in most cultures, but the training, at least as we do it, can have some fairly unexpected consequences.

Tom, your point about linguists is well taken. Sapirs' discussion of the relationship between Language, Culture and Personality is well worth looking at in that regard. Without the flexible mindset, any translations will be transliterations which loose a lot of the actual meaning. BTW, another good book to add to the list in this area is Edward T. Hall's The Silent Language. It deals with proxemics - basically body language and how that is used in different cultures to shift meaning.

On the issue of adaptability training, I've often felt that the best "training" I ever got for doing fieldwork wasn't from school, but through training in improvisational acting. One of my friends in the theatre community used to train RCMP people for undercover work, and he would run them through improv training and then plop them down in a city with no money, luggage or ID, except for an emergency coin to make a phone call (if they used it, they failed). They had to report back to a particular location after 72 hours, at which point they would be debriefed and scored. The only person who ever scored 100% walked in wearing a $1000 suit, with another $6000 worth of luggage and a lot of cash.

Where I have faulted the Dept of State in the past is their "adaptability" measures are really focused on how adaptable applicants are to a European/US centric environment centered on class structures and associated definitions of what constitutes "higher culture." In many ways the OSS and then the CIA followed the same path in selection and recruitment with he major exception that the OSS/CIA has always been willing to head hunt among the military, especially for covert operations.

Well, it does make sense for State to focus on that - think about Heinlein's "Pie with a fork" story. What has always amazed (amused) me is that they concentrate on the surface of "high culture" without going deeper. They, and other foreign service groups, are actually trying to train people in a pseudo-aristocratic mindset from the late 19th century. I used to find this absolutely hilarious, since it was so obviously merely a surface understanding of that particular sub-culture.

Marc

[Tom Odom]

They, and other foreign service groups, are actually trying to train people in a pseudo-aristocratic mindset from the late 19th century.

That is exactly my point. The good ones--the good State folks and I worked with some of the best--slip this mental punch and adapt. Others do not; the Kinshasa crowd Stan and I endured with 2 exceptions fit this model.

And I will also say we face the same type of mental imprinting when we are coming up through the system. In relation to this discussion, the gap between the conventional and unconventional is difficult to bridge.

best

Tom

[Shek]

On the issue of adaptability training, I've often felt that the best "training" I ever got for doing fieldwork wasn't from school, but through training in improvisational acting. One of my friends in the theatre community used to train RCMP people for undercover work, and he would run them through improv training and then plop them down in a city with no money, luggage or ID, except for an emergency coin to make a phone call (if they used it, they failed). They had to report back to a particular location after 72 hours, at which point they would be debriefed and scored. The only person who ever scored 100% walked in wearing a $1000 suit, with another $6000 worth of luggage and a lot of cash.

It's "The Amazing Race" and a cultural SERE school all in one! This would actually be a great experience, providing motivation for learning some language and how to interact with people in a positive way so that you can get from point A to point B without any money.

[Jedburgh]

...On the issue of adaptability training, I've often felt that the best "training" I ever got for doing fieldwork wasn't from school, but through training in improvisational acting. One of my friends in the theatre community used to train RCMP people for undercover work, and he would run them through improv training and then plop them down in a city with no money, luggage or ID, except for an emergency coin to make a phone call (if they used it, they failed). They had to report back to a particular location after 72 hours, at which point they would be debriefed and scored. The only person who ever scored 100% walked in wearing a $1000 suit, with another $6000 worth of luggage and a lot of cash...

Similar in some respects, but it certainly wasn't a scored competition, was the final day of a Turkish "Headstart" course I attended when first assigned to a remote nuke detachment as a young artilleryman many years ago. (All cherries remained at the Group HQ near Istanbul until completion of inprocessing and the headstart course, then we were sent out to our various detachments) On the final day of headstart, our instructor brought us all out to Istanbul's Grand Bazaar - and then abandoned us. After just two weeks in-country, and four days of basic language instruction, we had to fend for ourselves and find our own way back. It was a real learning experience.

[sullygoarmy]

Dave,

That is the central core of cultural understanding--the mindset. That's why I harp on 2 base rules---you have to have the mindset. Even the best linguist in the world is useless and may in fact be harmful without that mental framework. I have talked this issue with SF and FAOs and others; I believe the selection process has to include some form of adaptabilty measurement.

Where I have faulted the Dept of State in the past is their "adaptability" measures are really focused on how adaptable applicants are to a European/US centric environment centered on class structures and associated definitions of what constitutes "higher culture." In many ways the OSS and then the CIA followed the same path in selection and recruitment with he major exception that the OSS/CIA has always been willing to head hunt among the military, especially for covert operations.

Again Dave, you got it!

Tom

Tom,
This is something we are struggling with at JCISFA and trying to determine how to pick, grow and train advisors. Lots of good info on successful and non so successful advisors out there through history. Having a cultural mindset is vital to the success of our current and future advisor missions. The regular army (ie, not SF) does not have the selection process, psychological screening, personality assessments etc of their advisors today that the SF normally does. Advisors are, for the most part, tasked and receive limited training on what it means to be an advisor and techniques for gaining influence with their counterparts. I like one of the other comments in this thread that a good advisor may have to buck the system a little bit to go against the grain of traditional military culture to be a successful cultural warrior. Good stuff!

Sully

[Stan]

Tom and Sully,

The other K-town embassy guy who was ok was the senior econ officer--at least he actually came and discussed things.

I had this bad feeling you were going to nominate him ! Yeah, he did come by with some interesting observations, which you always seemed to have answers for

I like one of the other comments in this thread that a good advisor may have to buck the system a little bit to go against the grain of traditional military culture to be a successful cultural warrior. Good stuff!

That's unfortunate and perhaps not always needed. I had great officers over the years that let me do it "Stan's Style" and I always tried to get home by 11 and with the info we were after. Tom would later offer me a beer

Yes, Sully, a tad confusing and simple. But hea, it worked.

Regards, Stan

[Mark O'Neill]

. A SF officer told me that his group sent members to an Indian reservation to do humanitarian / construction missions - several Australian officers told me of a similar program where they sent Army officers and enlisted to Aborigine reservations to do the same.

I think you might be referring to the 'AACAP' program. Link is here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/Army/19CEw...ACAP/AACAP.HTM

The program is largely executed by Engineer units, frequently with a Medical or Dental Team attached.

[SWJED]

Mark,

Thanks much for the link - I guess the cultural education is a second order effect.

That said, the Aussies I worked with during several U.S. sponsored events (Small Wars) were keen on this as an example of the types of low-drag operations that provide an educational benefit for the Diggers.

Dave

[slapout9]

Dave, my current boss is x-SF and he was sent to an American Indian reservation in the early 1970's Wyoming or Idaho (not sure) they did a lot road construction and minor medical stuff. I will ask him at work tomorrow. Awhile back it was either me or Major Strickland that talked about US military training with Tribal Police forces. It was a cultural thing plus it gets around posse commutates regulations. I will let you know what I find out.

[George L. Singleton]

Mark,

Thanks much for the link - I guess the cultural education is a second order effect.

That said, the Aussies I worked with during several U.S. sponsored events (Small Wars) were keen on this as an example of the types of low-drag operations that provide an educational benefit for the Diggers.

Dave

Some of you guys are Marines. Did any of you ever hear of the late great Major General Wilbur S. ("Big Foot") Brown, USMC, Ret., Dec? He earned a PhD in History at U. of Alabama after retiring from USMC and was one of my History Profs at U. of Ala, College of A&S, 1959-1962 era.

Brown fought beside many Aussies during his long career, particularly in Asian theater.

There is a Marine Corp artillary classroom bldg. at Ft. Sill, OK named after General Brown. Know lots of his war stories he kindly shared as part of teaching us "history." I liked him very much.

George Singleton