Results 1 to 20 of 809

Thread: Gazing in the Congo (DRC): the dark heart of Africa (2006-2017)

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    In Barsoom, as a fact!
    Posts
    976

    Default

    Hello Mike,

    All the questions you raise were raised when it came to set that FIB. But the main question was: how would Russia and China react and would that mean a new approach for Syria... (new is beautiful cause it is what we need but also scary...;-))

    Basically, the FIB already has been engaged against one armed group: the M23.
    They were in support to the FARDC and brought professional planing, operations and modern warfare to the Kivu. The results were not long to come: the FARDC and FIB just kicked M23 over 20 km away from Goma.
    The question of legal ground has not really been an issue as ToE and RoE already existed. What was new with that FIB is the ToE. What has been lacking in DRC since ages is a will from peacekeepers to actually do the job. The FIB component came with the straight intention to use lethal force to impose the UNSC decisions to armed non state actors.

    The Force commander gave a pretty raw but effective definition of civilian when he arrived and set the green zone in and around Goma: all those who carry weapons (AK, RPG...) are not civilians. Civilians do not carry weapons.
    Est de la RDC : Tout civil portant une arme sera assimil un combattant, selon la Monusco
    http://www.digitalcongo.net/article/93352
    (All civilian carrying a weapon will be assimilated to a combatant. In French unfortunately)
    He basically said: if you are not a police or military staff then you are not allowed to carry weapons in the area I control. Which is the basic of the Congolese law and makes the distingo between combatants and civilians quite easy.

    That said, the FIB is a political tool in the first place. Its purpose is to reverse the military dynamic to allow a political dialog to take place. So far, they have been good at fighting but political dialog is stuck in the sand and goes nowhere. So military solution prevail for the moment.
    Talks suspended after M23, DRC disagree
    http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article48515
    Now the questions are: will M23 external supporters take the risk to get at war with the UN? And what will happen if UN are defeated?

  2. #2
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default Marc-Andre: "Tout civil portant une arme ...

    sera assimil un combatant" is clear enough for that moment in time; except for one argument that has been thrown at the US re: its actions in Iraq, Astan, Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia - and probably elsewhere.

    That argument very simply is that carrying firearms in those countries is not at all uncommon among civilians. Therefore, carrying firearms is not sufficient (in and of itself) to make positive ID of combatants. In fact, the US has been consistently criticized by the UN-ICRC, as to its matrices for signature strikes, for too heavily relying on two factors, military age males + carrying firearms, as proving positive ID of combatants.

    Even where carrying firearms is made absolutely illegal (except for soldiers and police), that makes gun-carrying civilians criminals, not combatants. As criminals, those gun-carrying civilians are under the protection of Article 6(1) of the ICCPR, which the UN certainly has to admit is a binding international treaty, stating that “every human being has the inherent right to life. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.” In the US, that rule is known to every cop as Tennessee v Garner, which restricts the instances in which even a gun-carrying civilian felon may be shot.

    General Cruz' statement in Digital Congo doesn't evidence what other UN-ICRC rules he is not following by omission, or what rules he is even breaking by commission. I see no evidence in the statement that Cruz has taken Nels Melzer's "direct participation in hostilities" as the rule governing FIB's offensive targeting operations.

    If, pursuant to General Cruz's apparent ROE, gun-carrying civilians are actually being shot as "combatants", at least some of those killings would most likely constitute, under the consistent UN-ICRC proclamations that have filled the past decade, either extrajudicial executions or war crimes.

    No doubt that General Cruz is faced with a difficult situation; that recourse to more "direct action" is often effective; and that pragmatism may justify the COA elected. Last nite, I watched La Bataille d'Alger; effective methods (in the short run, of course).

    My own "feeling" is that, if FIB actually engages in "effective offensive targeting", it will end up actually employing as harsh or harsher ROEs than the US has employed since 9/11; but that the US will remain the UN-ICRC whipping post.

    Regards

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 10-24-2013 at 03:36 PM.

  3. #3
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    3,817

    Default

    Mike,
    The only thing I could add to this is that the vast majority of civilians in the DRC do not actually possess firearms (at least not this past April).

    With some very limited examples such as politicians and military family members, you would be hard pressed to find a common civilian with a firearm (and the ability to employ said).

    Regards, Stan
    If you want to blend in, take the bus

  4. #4
    Council Member carl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Denver on occasion
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    The FIB rules of engagement as stated remind me of what Tom Odom advised the US to use as rules of engagement when we first went to Somalia long ago. If I remember what I read correctly, he advised this-Anybody who is carrying a weapon is to be shot and if anybody picks up that weapon, he is to be shot too.

    TIA.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  5. #5
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default Stan:

    Because of Marc-Andre having long ago provided me with the links to the UN reports on gun-control and gun ownership in Central Africa (esp. Rwanda, which has its own set of lengthy and dreary reports), I'm aware of the classism inherent in Central African gun ownership. So, as I said, there is a certain pragmatism in General Cruz' approach; which, from a utilitarian approach justifies the "raw" rule of thumb - gun in hand = combatant.

    I suspect, however, that this rule does not apply across the board; and that we really have three categories of gun toters:

    1. The "good" politicians and their military family members who are not going to be shot because of their status as gun toters.

    2. The "bad" politicians and their military family members who might be shot because of their gun toter status, but more likely would be "neutralized" by capture - we don't want the UN FIB to be killing African elites, do we ?

    3. The common rabble, who aren't supposed to have guns anyway; and will be shot if they are gun toters.

    Now, all of this makes practical sense in context. But, it is a far cry from the rules propounded by Messrs Ban, Emmerson, Alston and Melzer; and endorsed by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch - and all of the other critics of the US over the past decade.

    Regards

    Mike

  6. #6
    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    In Barsoom, as a fact!
    Posts
    976

    Default

    Hello every body, Mike, Stan, Carl

    What stan pointed is very true in DRC: average people do not possess firearms and even less know how to use it. In addition, combats are mainly armed guys against against unarmed civilians.

    It is also clear that General Cruz statement is not based on legal grounds but on practical considerations. It was also and first of all a political statement to win the Congolese hearts and minds to the cause of the FIB.

    In addition, the FIB is mainly composed of SANDF and Tanzanian forces which are quite well trained. M23 is composed, allegedly, of former FARDC/CNDP/PARECO and RDF, and RDF are well trained.
    Nothing comparable to Astan or Irak or even Somalia.

    But the point you raise is right on the spot of the arguments used by troops contributing countries to not engage their soldiers in combat, in addition to the usual political argument: we are here for vacation not for war, it is a foreign country issue we cannot afford to have even 1 casualty. Something that changed with the FIB as at least 2 Tanzanian soldiers died during combats with M23.

    What is also a concern for the FIB is the basic M23 combatants who are for most of them forced combatants recruited on a false promise of a job in DRC or kidnapped children. During the last combats, FARDC and FIB fired more than 1000 round of artillery on M23 positions and approximately 300 M23 combatants were killed (Some say up to 450).
    M23 officers are trained, they prepare defenses, foxholes, protected artillery positions... But average combatants have at best 2 weeks of training and barely know how to load their gun.

    Against the other armed groups (which are more than 200 on DRC soil according to my last mapping 3 years ago and they keep on proliferating) the situation might be different. So on a legal ground, M23 is a soft target as they wear uniform, have an identified chain of command and carry weapons. With other groups it will be more blurred as their is no real chain of command, no uniform and not necessarily more than 3 AK for 10 "combatants".

    General Cruz combat experience is mainly Haiti and the Cite Soleil gangs. So for the moment he does what he knows: anti gang. When it will come to disarm by force local ethnic militias it will be another story but Congolese legal system is exotic enough to allow almost anything.

  7. #7
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default Carl:

    My quick search didn't turn up Tom's "ROE for Somalian pirates"; I'd be very interested in exactly what he said if someone can find it.

    However, I did find Tom's post from this thread in 2007 (#101), which bears on the subject:

    Well they [the DRC Army] always made our job easier when it came to predicting what they would do:

    Unarmed civilians as opposition: attack, rape, steal, kill

    Armed opposition: remove mirror shades, look real mean, put shades back on, then run
    Looks to me, from that comment, that a good argument can be made that a lot more armed common rabble, of the right character and attitude, would be a positive thing.

    But, that is neither African elite nor UN-think; the common rabble must be unarmed - sound familiar ?

    Regards

    Mike

  8. #8
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default Marc-Andre:

    I'm sure that the "Congolese legal system is exotic enough to allow almost anything." I could also say that the US legal system is exotic enough to allow almost everything that Presidents Bush and Obama ordered since 9/11. Whether those orders were wise policies is another issue.

    Personally, I've less objection than most to reliance on domestic law (including its Laws of War) over what passes for international law today. IHL and IHRL are anachronistic because they are based on a less complex context (a clear division between Peace and War; e.g., Lasse Oppenheim) than present-day reality (War in Peacetime; e.g., Andre Beaufre); and incorporate some of the worst Cold War innovations (e.g., "freedom fighters"). So, if the whole edifice is to scuppered, so be it.

    But, that is certainly not the position taken by the UN-ICRC and the "international legal community", and generally supported by the international political elite; especially, where opportunity exists to bash the US. Of course, the UN is much more "flexible" when it comes to itself - it doesn't have to practice what it otherwise preaches.

    Regards

    Mike

  9. #9
    Council Member carl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Denver on occasion
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmm99 View Post
    My quick search didn't turn up Tom's "ROE for Somalian pirates"; I'd be very interested in exactly what he said if someone can find it.

    However, I did find Tom's post from this thread in 2007 (#101), which bears on the subject:



    Looks to me, from that comment, that a good argument can be made that a lot more armed common rabble, of the right character and attitude, would be a positive thing.

    But, that is neither African elite nor UN-think; the common rabble must be unarmed - sound familiar ?

    Regards

    Mike
    I think that comes from his book, Journey Into Darkness, I think. It had to do with our original effort in Somalia. The main point is if you are trying to restore some semblance of order in that part of the world by suppressing organized (sort of) armed groups, you don't fool around. You tell them they will die if they don't comply and then back it up.

    Right on, arm the common rabble. But in the glorious DRC, the common rabble is pretty darn poor and a rifle, ammunition and things to keep it going aren't so cheap. You get a few guys together who can work a scam to pay for weapons or get somebody else to pay then, those guys have a huge advantage over the common rabble. So in this case, Tom's rules may be good.

    Stan would know better than I if the right character and attitude is common in the DRC.
    Last edited by carl; 10-24-2013 at 07:35 PM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  10. #10
    Council Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,021

    Default Owens' ROE

    The statement was actually made by a Lt. Gen. (relaying a remark he heard), with Tom affirmatively replying (from Journey into Darkness, p.52):

    LG Owens: If they have a gun, shoot 'em. If someone picks up the gun, shoot him too. Keep shooting until no one picks up the gun.

    Tom: Sir, that is exactly what needs to happen.
    So, let's adopt that ROE "exactly" (literally) for use worldwide. One result would be the likely deaths of Tom and me; each of us owns guns, and based on perceived character wouldn't comply with a mandate to give them up.

    Or, are we "good guys", who for some reason are exempted from the literal rule ? Or, do we live in a "good" country, which for some reason is exempted from the rule ? Or, is there something missing from what should be called "Owens' Rule" ?

    Regards

    Mike

  11. #11
    Council Member carl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Denver on occasion
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by M-A Lagrange View Post
    What has been lacking in DRC since ages is a will from peacekeepers to actually do the job. The FIB component came with the straight intention to use lethal force to impose the UNSC decisions to armed non state actors.
    That is the interesting question. What was it that motivated the UN to make the decision actually really and truly use lethal in a serious way? For years and years they mostly hung around and occasionally got shot up. Why did they change their minds?

    M-A or Stan or anybody, if you've heard any scuttlebutt about why it would be interesting to know.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  12. #12
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    3,817

    Default 11 plus 4

    Carl,
    Actually, although use of lethal force is very new to blue helmets, their mandate and a UN-brokered accord supported by 11 nations and 4 international organizations were key.
    If you want to blend in, take the bus

  13. #13
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,366

    Default

    Carl & Stan,

    What is remarkable is that the UN has again used force in the Congo, as it did in the sixties (1960-64); when their enemies were a mix of Congo military, mercenaries, separatists - notably in Katanga - and others:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...n_in_the_Congo
    davidbfpo

  14. #14
    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    In Barsoom, as a fact!
    Posts
    976

    Default

    As Stan said, it is the 11+4 peace framework signed in Addis Abeba that facilitated the involvement of FIB.
    But what Stan forgot is the nomination of a UN Special envoy for the Great Lakes + a US Special Envoy for the Great lakes, and the fact that Addis Abeba framework was signed with US, EU, Belgium and France as witness.

    In addition, this has sparked a very interresting reorganisation of power in Central and Southern Africa between EAC and SADC.

    I put here the link on an interesting article on the M23 ideology:
    M23's Congo Cadres: The Rebel Movement with a Taste for Local Politics

    During the leadership portion of the training, examples of an eclectic mix of revolutionary heroes are taught. This includes figures ranging from Nelson Mandela to Abraham Lincoln to Che Guevara. (Che Guevara once fought in South Kivu for Laurent Kabila, the late father of the DRC’s current President Joseph Kabila, but this detail is apparently overlooked.)

    Training also includes some religious elements, in particular an extensive course on ‘Christian leadership’. “Though M23 is a secular group, we hold up the example of Jesus as a model of leadership and service to a revolutionary cause,” explains one M23 cadre. The head of M23’s armed wing, General Sultani Makenga, is an avowed Seventh Day Adventist and the group’s former leader, Jean-Marie Runiga, styled himself as a bishop.

    However, examples from other faith traditions are also drawn upon. Mahatma Gandhi’s Seven Blunders of the World is taught to all cadres, and the example of Gandhi has clearly rubbed off on some M23 members. Political chief Bisimwa currently uses an image of Ghandi on his Twitter profile.

    Chris Shambala, a member of M23’s public works department, recalls his experience in the leadership courses. “My favourite figure they told us about in the trainings was Abraham Lincoln,” he says. “That man was a prophet. His vision of America was fulfilled when Obama became president. Like Lincoln, we know that sometimes to fix wrongs in your country, you need a civil war.
    http://thinkafricapress.com/drc/m23-...key-grip-power

    At the momment US and Eu are calling for a quick peace agreement in Kampala but I really doubt it will ever happen.

    DR Congo army in 'last phase' push against M23 rebels after seizing guerrilla stronghold

    A source in the UN mission in DR Congo (MONUSCO), which is helping the army, said the offensive against the M23 was in ‘the last phase’, after the army captured the main rebel base at Bunagana on Wednesday.

    Diehard M23 fighters, estimated at just a few hundred men, were dug in on three hills in farming territory about 50 miles north of Goma, the capital of strife-torn North Kivu province
    .
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2jOvQDez1

    You need to be 2 to negotiate. And at least 1 is not really willing to talk.

  15. #15
    Council Member CrowBat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Haxbach, Schnurliland
    Posts
    1,563

    Default

    Negotiations with M23, sigh...

    What's the point of negotiating with supposed M23 leaders, when the body actually controlling them is the Rwandan reg....ho-hum, 'government'?

    http://turtlebay.foreignpolicy.com/p...ngolese_mutiny

    ...and when they are supported by (US-trained) Rwandan special forces?
    http://allafrica.com/stories/201209050850.html

    One can only hope that Kigali was speaking truth at least that one time, when it announced these special forces were back inside Rwanda, last year:
    http://allafrica.com/stories/201209031017.html

    - Back in period 1998-2003 (and after), such announcements/promises were not worth the paper on which they were issued...

    Even if, the 'core' of the M23 was initially of Rwandan origin too (of course, Kigali would say the people in question are all 'Congolese Tutsi/Banyamulenge', 'fighting against genocidary government and for their right to exist'), and I doubt this has changed very much ever since:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ongo-rebels-un

  16. #16
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,366

    Default End of the road for Congo's M23?

    An assessment from an IISS analyst:
    A revolutionary new UN combat brigade may have helped the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) army to defeat a rebellion in the country’s troubled east. The rebel group M23 (March 23) declared this week that it was laying down its arms, bringing to an end an 18-month insurgency in which 80,000 have been displaced and thousands killed or injured.

    However, there are dozens of armed groups in mineral-rich eastern DRC besides the Tutsi-led M23, and the Congolese government has now said that it will pursue others. A government spokesman pointed to the Rwandan-Hutu FDLR as a top priority.
    Link:http://www.iiss.org/en/iiss%20voices...r-the-m23-447e

    Sounds like a perpetual intervention, assuming the contributors remain committed, my emphasis:
    It consists of 3,069 personnel from South Africa, Tanzania and Malawi, with two infantry battalions, one artillery company, and one special forces company. The brigade is also believed to have added two attack helicopters and four utility helicopters to MONUSCO’s existing aerial capabilities.
    davidbfpo

Similar Threads

  1. Tom Barnett on Africa
    By SWJED in forum Africa
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-22-2006, 12:46 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •