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Thread: Combat Tracking (catch all)

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by TYR View Post
    Hey guys,
    I know there are alot of people out there who think David Scott is some wiz bang tracker but be careful. Yes he has an impressive biography that he has put on his website, but the man is not what you think he is. Just be careful before you put him on a pedestal, you might be very surprised what you might find if you talk to some of those that have worked around him. On the positive side he did bring attention to the use of tracking with in the military.
    TYR, Is there any chance that you can expand on the above comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYR View Post
    .....but the man is not what you think he is.
    Yes, please expand on that comment.

    Are you doubting his credentials and ability? Is there perhaps an issue with his personality or professionalism?

    What's the problem?
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  3. #103
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    I used to work for him and was let down by him both personally and professionally. I would never question his military service. I would question why he is no longer associated with the company he started over 15 years ago, and why he had to open up another tracking school.
    "Soldiers who are lacking in basic training, discipline, poor leadership and inadequate command and control will not be able to win wars with technology and firepower alone. When their technology fails, they will find themselves in a vacuum they cannot easily extricate themselves from."- Eeben Barlow

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    Now Mantracker is working with the military on counter-IEDs.

    Canadian Cowboy Earns Army Spurs

    Wednesday, July 14, 2010

    A cowboy has been teaching soldiers how to look for IEDs hidden in the ground when deployed in Afghanistan.

    Professional tracker Terry Grant (52) has been recruited by the British Army to pass on his unique ground sign awareness skills to the soldiers of 7th Armoured Brigade while on Exercise Prairie Thunder 1 in BATUS.

    Terry, who is famed for his hit US reality TV show Mantracker in which he tracks contestants over vast swathes of the Canadian wilderness, is training the soldiers to help prepare them for their deployment to Afghanistan next year. When an IED is laid, the ground is disturbed either by physically digging the device in or by the insurgents leaving tracks as they move around. Ground sign awareness is about recognising these clues and therefore identifying a potential IED location and reducing the risk.

    Terry’s show Mantracker sees two contenders take off into the bush with a map, a compass and a head start. They have 36 hours to reach a finish line some 40km away without getting caught – how they escape is up to them. Terry is on horseback, without any navigational aids and doesn’t know their exact start point or finish line. His job is to track them searching the ground for clues before they reach the finish.
    http://www.modoracle.com/news/Canadi...urs_20942.html
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-05-2010 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Place report in quote marks. Moved to main thread on Tracking.

  5. #105
    Council Member TYR's Avatar
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    Default Tactical Tracking Techniques

    Thought this was interesting that the British Military would hire a TV personality when they already provide tracking instruction in Borneo.

    The British military has hired the star of a Canadian reality-TV show to teach its soldiers tracking techniques that they can use to spot signs of improvised explosive devices when they deploy to Afghanistan.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1660984/
    "Soldiers who are lacking in basic training, discipline, poor leadership and inadequate command and control will not be able to win wars with technology and firepower alone. When their technology fails, they will find themselves in a vacuum they cannot easily extricate themselves from."- Eeben Barlow

  6. #106
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    Default Tactical Tracking

    I am sure that Terry Grant's training will have some value. But they would be better off looking at a more tactical approach to tracking Like former Rhodesian David Scott Donelan's TTOS: http://www.ttos.us/tracking/ttos/about_us.php

    A good list of references.

    http://www.ttos.us/tracking/bookstor...al_reading.php

  7. #107
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    David Scott is no longer with TTOS. He got in some trouble with the other owners and had to step down. He did start another school, however from what I hear he has been getting himself into trouble. I’m not a big David Scott fan myself. I used to work for the guy and I was thoroughly disappointed. I recently started writing Allan Savory the man who was the architect of the Rhodesian Combat Tracker Unit and he didn’t have a whole lot good to say about David either. Although the fact that he reintroduced Tactical Tracking here in the U.S. is a good thing don't get me wrong. Currently the Combat Tracker program taught by TTOS at Ft. Huachuca is being phased out and it may never be implemented to its full potential. It was on the wrong post to begin with and the program never really got the visibility from the combat arms folks like it deserved. After September the U.S Army will no longer have a Tracking program. The USMC still will have some Tracking with in the combat hunter program but IMO they also have thoroughly botched up that program as well. I think they meant well but with any program to many people got their hand in the cookie jar and screwed it up. Its funny the Army talks about "Every soldier is a sensor" and that they want to "Attack the Network" yet they haven't been able to train the ground guys who conduct dismounted patrols how to track or how the skill can be employed after an attack in pursuit of an elusive enemy. Instead they want to gather forensic evidence while the insurgents are getting away or attempt to use some gadget that costs alot of money to find or detect the enemy. Maybe I'm old fashion but I still believe that the human mind is the best computer employed by our soldiers and not some gadget. What ever happened to basic “Field Craft”.
    "Soldiers who are lacking in basic training, discipline, poor leadership and inadequate command and control will not be able to win wars with technology and firepower alone. When their technology fails, they will find themselves in a vacuum they cannot easily extricate themselves from."- Eeben Barlow

  8. #108
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    Default Sad story. Not sad, bad. Really inexcusable...

    Quote Originally Posted by TYR View Post
    ..It was on the wrong post to begin with and the program never really got the visibility from the combat arms folks like it deserved. ... Its funny the Army talks about "Every soldier is a sensor" and that they want to "Attack the Network" yet they haven't been able to train the ground guys who conduct dismounted patrols how to track or how the skill can be employed after an attack in pursuit of an elusive enemy. Instead they want to gather forensic evidence while the insurgents are getting away or attempt to use some gadget that costs alot of money to find or detect the enemy. Maybe I'm old fashion but I still believe that the human mind is the best computer employed by our soldiers and not some gadget. What ever happened to basic “Field Craft”.
    That first point sums it up and answers the question at the end. It got caught up in turf battles between Branches and Schools. That and ARFORGEN...

    Tracking is not easy and a really super tracker must be one who has a flair for it but the basics are not difficult, can be learned and used by most and can save lives. However, once learned, those skills require practice and Army units spend too much time in garrison to provide adequate practice so the skills atrophy for many and units develop the opinion that the training is a not valuable consumer of time... *

    To the turf battles, add the determination by too many that Joe is stupid and can only (or should only) be marginally trained. Untrue, we just don't really try to train him -- too hard on, too much work for, the so-called Trainers. * He's not stupid. Lot of his Bosses are...

    Including those that designed a 'personnel system' that says recruit anyone who says they want in, regardless of suitability and that everyone other than first termers will be a trainer in a school or training center and a Recruiter for 'career management' purposes **...


    * Both those items are also due to a failure to properly fund essential training in the basics in order to fund other things -- not least to concentrate on big showy little or nothing gained efforts like the CTC rotations.

    ** Translation: Making life easy for the 'Personnel Managers.' Easier to fill holes if you don't have to pay attention to whether a person is suited for a job or not.

  9. #109
    Council Member TYR's Avatar
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    Default So True

    Without a doubt you are correct Ken. The skill is not easy but I have never had a student leave our course and not be able to track. Tracking at its very essence is hunting and the military is attempting to hunt an elusive enemy. I also noticed that it didn’t make a difference whether or not the student came from a rural or urban upbringing. Some will always make better trackers than others but all went away being able to track a man as an individual as well as part of a tracking team conducting a tracking operation. The soldiers and Marines who attended the course all had great things to say about our course and wished that they had received that training prior to going overseas. What has always baffled me is that the U.S. Army throughout its history had used this skill set in one form or another to pursue or gather information on the enemy. This skill doesn’t cost a lot to instruct nor maintain and most of all doesn’t require any fancy equipment. Instead of hunting a deer or an elk the soldier and marine is hunting probably the most dangerous prey...Man. However just like any other animal a man will set a pattern and the sign if interpreted and not just followed will indicate a lot about the enemy’s intention. I used to work with a guy that was a GS in my unit at JRTC, he had been a tracker in a Combat Tracker Platoon in Viet Nam, he also couldn’t understand why the army wasn’t picking up on that capability he always said it worked then and it would work today. When we look at history after Viet Nam, the Army attempted to make tracking not only a skill but a tactic that was part of an operation with the publishing of FM 7-42 Combat Tracker and Tracker Dog Training and Employment in 1973. Let’s face it what we are fighting today is nothing new, we’ve been there before. If the skill saves lives and is able to provide a vehicle for our guys on the ground to “Find, Fix and Finish” the enemy which enables us to “Attack the Network” shouldn’t we be training them to do just that?


    FM 17 - 98. (The Scout Platoon) dated 23 Dec 1992 states:

    Immediate-use intelligence is information concerning the enemy that can be put to use immediately to gain surprise, to keep the enemy off balance, or to keep him from escaping the area entirely. A tracker can obtain information that, when combined with information from other sources, indicates enemy plans. Tracking is one of the best sources of immediate-use intelligence!
    FM 7-8 states that
    There are three types of patrol: Combat, Reconnaissance and Tracking.
    FM 3-24.2 – Tactics in Counterinsurgency, dated April 2009, states in paragraph 5-38, as it relates to Search and Attack:

    Reconnaissance units must locate insurgent forces, tracks, or other indicators of direction or location. In rural and some border operations, well-trained trackers can identify and follow insurgent tracks that are hours or even days old. Units tracking the insurgent must be prepared to react to insurgent contact and avoid likely ambush situations.
    TC 31-34-4 Special Forces Tracking and Countertracking, dated Sep 2009, The WORST Tracking Manual I have ever read. This document is going to get someone killed.

    Again what ever happened to Field Craft? I apologize for the Rant. I just don’t get it!
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-05-2010 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Add quote marks
    "Soldiers who are lacking in basic training, discipline, poor leadership and inadequate command and control will not be able to win wars with technology and firepower alone. When their technology fails, they will find themselves in a vacuum they cannot easily extricate themselves from."- Eeben Barlow

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    Default For more information

    A SWJ Facebook fan posted a comment with this link. It lists different sources for learning about tracking. I thought that it may be of interest to readers of this thread.

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    Default Don't forget:

    The 1984 edition of FM 21-75: Combat Skills of the Soldier has a chapter on tracking. It's definitly not a comprehensive treatise; and yet, although very basic, it's still a good introduction to the subject matter.

    TYR, you probably knew that but I didn't see it listed among the other manuals in your post so I thought I'd mention it.

    The last sentence in the chapter is a gem: When being tracked by an enemy tracker, the best bet is to try to out distance him or to double back and try to ambush him. Major Rogers would approve.
    Last edited by Rifleman; 08-06-2010 at 04:58 AM.
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  12. #112
    Council Member TYR's Avatar
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    Rifleman
    You are correct. I had gathered this information going back to 1973. Although there are older manuals that discuss tracking, it is discussed under trailing. The purpose of listing page numbers was to show the degradation of information over time. Also to highlight that at one time the Military had a doctrinal program but just like any program that was developed during war time it slowly erodes during peace time. Unfortunately commanders do not understand this skill and are reluctant to send their soldiers through this training. Also who in today’s Army is really qualified to teach it?

    FM 7-42. Combat Tracker and Tracker Dog Training and Employment-1973- 90 Pages covering combat tracking

    FC 21-77. Dismounted Patrolling-1984- Tracking 10 Pages

    FM 21-75. Combat Skills of the Soldier- 1984- 13 Pages covering tracking

    FM 7-70. Light Infantry Platoon and Squad-1986- 3 types of Patrols: Combat, Reconnaissance, and Tracking, Tracking Patrols-9 pages

    FM 7-8. The Infantry Platoon and Squad-1992- 3 Types of Patrols: Combat, Reconnaissance, Tracking. 6 1/2 pages.

    FM 7-92. The Infantry Reconnaissance Platoon and Squad- 1992- Tracking -7 1/2 Pages

    FM 17-98. Scout Platoon-1999- 3 Types of Patrolling Combat, Reconnaissance, Tracking (References FM 7-8)-3 Sentences

    FM 3-90.98. Reconnaissance Platoon- 2002- 3 Types of patrols Combat, reconnaissance, and Tracking-6 pages

    FM 3-05.222 Special Forces Sniper Training and Employment- 2003- Tracking and Counter Tracking- 19 Pages

    FM 3-21.8. The Infantry Platoon and Squad-2007- 2 Types of patrols: Combat and Reconnaissance. 5 sentences under Reconnaissance describing tracking.

    FM 3-22.10. Sniper Training and Employment- 2008- Tracking and Evasion-8 1/2 pages.

    FM 3-55.93. Long Range Surveillance Unit Operations-2008- Tracking and Counter Tracking- 10 Pages

    FM 3-24.2. Tactics in Counter Insurgency-2009- One paragraph

    TC 31-34-4 Special Forces Tracking and Countertracking-2009- 48 Pages. I know that SWC probably meant well, however it is apparent that they never consulted a professional. Like I said earlier IMO this document if followed will get someone killed.

    What I noticed as an instructor was that Soldiers and Marines do not possess the attention to detail those soldiers from other era’s possessed. I believe that is because of the way our culture both military and civilian has developed for the past 15- 20 years with the use of technology. IMO the military is more detached from their environment today than prior to 911. Our military is just not very good at basic patrolling anymore. Is tracking the answer to all our problems? No! But it is a tactic that has proven its worth not only in our military but around the globe as well, and along with other skill sets will provide great results.
    "Soldiers who are lacking in basic training, discipline, poor leadership and inadequate command and control will not be able to win wars with technology and firepower alone. When their technology fails, they will find themselves in a vacuum they cannot easily extricate themselves from."- Eeben Barlow

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by TYR View Post
    Also who in today’s Army is really qualified to teach it?
    TYR,

    Good point. Perhaps the best bet really is civilian instructors. A retired Border Patrol Agent is worth a lot in that regard. The Army did the same thing in the '80s with packing clinics; guides and outfitters in the Rockies instructed personel from 7th SFG(A) before deployments to Latin America.

    By the way. Anyone looking for a good combat tracking manual? Go to TAL Dozer's Selous Scouts site, print all the Rhodesian combat tracking articles, and put them in a binder. Now you've got a good manual!
    Last edited by Rifleman; 08-07-2010 at 12:41 AM.
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by TYR View Post
    TC 31-34-4 Special Forces Tracking and Countertracking-2009- 48 Pages. I know that SWC probably meant well, however it is apparent that they never consulted a professional. Like I said earlier IMO this document if followed will get someone killed.
    Get someone killed? I have this manual and can't see on what you base this comment. Care to explain?

  15. #115
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    Look I know how SWC came up with this publication. I have personally talked to some of them. The unfortunate part of this is that they never hired a subject matter expert to write the TC. The guys who wrote it had no knowledge of the skill itself. Tactical Tracking (I don’t like the term Combat Tracking. IMO Combat describes a fighting environment and Tactical describes a tactic that can be used in a multitude of environments for use in support of other military operations) is a dangerous business. A tracker is not just following spoor, he is hunting, at the other end of that spoor is not “bambie” but one or more men who are most likely armed have just committed an attack, may be operating in their own back yard; employ a network of supporters who may provide the quarry early warning or even sanctuary. Those things are not discussed in that manual. As I said the tracker is just not following footprints. The tracker is follows the spoor, evaluates the spoor and the environment to determine what the enemy did at that particular moment as well as where he is going and what he will do. The manual gives some information mostly incomplete information and does not discuss all the different indicators or how to track as a patrol or how to employ multiple patrols and leverage multiple assets to reach a certain objective as part of an operation. The Counter-tracking portion is the worst. I won’t go much in to detail on a public forum but what is discussed will only signpost your actions when attempting to evade a good tracker, or tracker team. The Circular doesn’t even discuss all the other techniques that could be employed. I believe that if you want to become proficient in countertracking you should first become a good tracker. By understanding the tracker you will better be able to counter him. Tracking is not something you learn by reading, it is something you learn by doing. One of the big problems is that when most people read something they think they can just get out there and do it. But in this line of work, if you don’t know what you’re doing and train properly you’re going to get someone killed. Our enemy may not be as educated or have all the technology, but by no means are they stupid. They are experts at survival in their environment. The only way to defeat an elusive enemy is to hunt them down relentlessly. Tracking is one way of accomplishing that.
    "Soldiers who are lacking in basic training, discipline, poor leadership and inadequate command and control will not be able to win wars with technology and firepower alone. When their technology fails, they will find themselves in a vacuum they cannot easily extricate themselves from."- Eeben Barlow

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    When I was a National Guard LRS PSG during our units MOB for deployment in 06'. I pushed hard to try and get at least some guys in the Company trained out at the Army Tracking school. It even stated the course was intended for LRS Units. Even if the Unit never was tasked with a tracking mission. The skill alone in counter track is so valuable to a LRS Team. The same is said for Sniper training. Even with no sniper mission, the skills need for that mission go hand in hand with avoiding detection on your mission. But like many things NCOs’ hope their chain of command would see the light, NO! Our unit was even tasked to do border interdiction missions. Still NO!

    I've since left the Unit and the Army after doing my 20yrs. And still the only guys that have received tracker training are those that receive it as part Counter Drug training for the State. The big Army just doesn't get it. As already stated in this thread, everyone wants to put their stamp on things and mess what could have been a good school for the Army.

    Even doing some of the things I do as a DOD security contactor overseas. Such skills can help in having a successful mission. In 07' I was looking hard at sending myself to receive tracker training. Since then I've lost touch as to who now is running the better schools. If someone would be help in pointing me in the right direction, any help would be great. Thanks for reading my ranting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    If someone would be help in pointing me in the right direction, any help would be great.
    Link: http://www.fletc.gov/state-and-local...aining-program

    It's for LEOs through FLETC and it's free. I don't know if DOD contractors qualify but maybe it's worth looking into.

    I've been wanting to go for some time but my department won't send me. Although the course is free there's still the matter of travel expenses, leaving a hole in the shift coverage, and paying me while I'm gone. Oh well, maybe someday.

    And I've heard good things about Joel Hardin from other cops.

    Link: http://www.jhardin-inc.com/

    Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Hardin

    I don't have any personal experience with Hardin, so my info is second hand. But his reputation is that of a straight forward and practical instructor. None of the Native American mysticism approach.
    Last edited by Rifleman; 08-07-2010 at 10:18 PM.
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    Thanks Rifleman for the links. I at present live just up the road from FLETC, but don't think I would qualifiy for their free training. A few years back i was looking at TTOC, but have read in this thread that Mr. Scott is no longer with them. Don't know if that's a good thing or bad? Have read some things on SOTTI, but dont have enought view on them. I'm ging to start hitting up some of the former SF guys I work with to get some idea as to were they have been going.

    Agian thank you and any help is great.

  19. #119
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    Boris,

    If you are interested in Tracking a great book on Tracking is "Practical Tracking" by Louis Liebenburg, Adriaan Louw and Mark Elbroch. It was published last year and can be found on Amazon. Probably the best book I've ever read on the subject of tracking. Although it won’t physically teach you how to track. Whenever you do find a course you want to go to, you will have more information on the subject. The authors are a mixture of wildlife conservationists and anthropologists, although it doesn't delve in the military and law enforcement realm it is an excellent book on tracking in general. You do have some other schools in your area to choose from in your area, I would definitely stay away from any school that can’t get you out of the “Spoor Pit" and the "Step by Step" method by the second day. To many beginner Trackers can’t get away from the "Step by Step" method to include Joel Harden. Most schools that site Jack Kearney's method of Tracking never really understood his tracking philosophy and can get away from the “Step by Step” method or the “Tracking Stick”. Jack Kearney never meant for students to use either so literally even for Search and Rescue. “Step by Step” and the stick is a great training tool but are slow. A tracker who uses solely that method will never catch up to there quarry.
    "Soldiers who are lacking in basic training, discipline, poor leadership and inadequate command and control will not be able to win wars with technology and firepower alone. When their technology fails, they will find themselves in a vacuum they cannot easily extricate themselves from."- Eeben Barlow

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    TYR,
    thank you for pointing out the book. I've added it to my wish list for my next order. i have read your other post on this thread. I would like your opinion on a quality mantracking school, and or ones to avoid. any help pointing me in the right direction would be great. Thank you again for pointing out the book.

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