Police in the US Kill Citizens at Over 70 Times the Rate of Other First-World Nations

[AdamG]

I simply believe that best way to learn the truth is straight from the horse's mouth. If I have a opinion about something, should I not at least bother to check the validity of my opinion?

If I knew any African Americans I would have asked them some hard questions too. You are free to ask me the same.

Considering the sheer numbers of Indian police and their human rights issues, you're living in a glass house.

Each state/ union territory has its own separate police force. In addition, there are central police organisations set up by the union government for specialised work. The total strength of the state/union territory police forces on 1.1.2003 in the country was 1, 468,776. In addition, the strength of the five central para-military organisations alone was 601,328.4k. The combined strength of state and central police is about 2.2 millions

http://www.humanrightsinitiative.org...y_in_india.pdf

*snip*

I know I am being too clever by half

I also noticed after politely pointing to where you'd get the best primary source information, you completely ignored my suggestion. Afraid of the Lion's Den? (That's a rhetorical question, we already know the answer).

BB,

You might get a better response to this over at the Police One Forums, considering that they're the ones actually on the street.
http://www.policeone.com/police-forums/

If you do register and get a response, by all means post the thread URL here.

[blueblood]

Considering the sheer numbers of Indian police and their human rights issues, you're living in a glass house.

http://www.humanrightsinitiative.org...y_in_india.pdf

*snip*

Why would I deny that? Did I somehow presented Indian police to be the perfect example? Do you wish to know the ground reality of Indian police forces?

Many members here have served and I didn't and that alone puts me far down the list. So no rather being courteous to the people who did something I won't be able to do. I think being respected is not something you are good at.

I also noticed after politely pointing to where you'd get the best primary source information, you completely ignored my suggestion. Afraid of the Lion's Den? (That's a rhetorical question, we already know the answer).

Lion's den? I will register, ask them something and they will do what exactly? Confess that shooting unarmed black men in the back is abhorring.

Afraid of what, getting shot via internet?

[blueblood]

You actually have a third option, which is to look it up yourself. You could spend a fraction of the time researching these topics, and find the same information and not have to rely on others who have their own biases and agendas (like myself or Jon Stewart). There’s nothing wrong with asking, but check the accuracy of the data first. Discussions have to be based on facts. Otherwise why should anyone waste their time? It's been my experience, nobody engaged the crazy man yelling gibberish in front of the town square.

You are right.

1) Police shot someone - Right

2) Someone died - Right

3) Were the numbers correct - Wrong

All I learned that you are highly defensive and have consistently refrained from calling a spade a spade that yes police are repeatedly messing up. Sometimes deliberately and sometimes accidentally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encoun...ings_by_police

They were right most of the time but they were also wrong on many occasions. Many of them were staged i.e. shooting a suspect after informally arresting him and some were fake i.e. politically motivated.

If you think I am some socialist American basher then you are wrong. I have family in the states. They love the police and I have family in India who are the police that includes my maternal grandfather(deceased), my aunt and uncle.

I am a huge Jon Stewart fan, less so of Oliver, but I take his shtick with a grain of salt. While I haven’t seen the Ferguson video, I have a good in which direction it is headed.

Jon Oliver being on the HBO gives him a lot of immunity that Stewart doesn't enjoy. You don't get to see huge corporates being pummeled to ground that often anywhere else and that I think is his biggest USP.

I don’t understand why we are still debating APCs in Doraville. The two incidents you cited are active shooter incidents that were over in a flash. Not every incident plays out the same way. Police agencies have to “hope for the best and plan for the worst.” Just because the Spartans held the pass with 300 people (I know actual numbers are many times that), that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have used more men or that future operations have to be restricted to 300. Or because Col John Ripley blew up the Dong Ha bridge by himself, it doesn’t mean we no longer need sappers or bridge blowing operations need to be restricted to one person. “Past results are not indicative of future performance.”
The police have a toolkit to respond to different types of law enforcement incident. Their tools include rifles, sniper rifles, cameras, armored vehicles, command post vehicles, helicopters, boats, bomb disposal vehicles, etc. They have to use the appropriate tool for the situation at hand.


Enough with the hyperbole. The police are not taking APCs out for joyrides. If these vehicles are on the streets then they are being transported somewhere or they are responding to an incident…and Joe Citizen should feel safe the good guys are on their way to do their duty. Police forces across the US have to be ready to handle heavily armed suspects including hostage takers. 50 years ago the M16 was used only by the military. At a certain point, when criminals started to outgun police, the military and local governments worked out a deal where they received surplus M16 from the DOD free of charge. Now the M16 or AR variant is standard issue to almost all police agencies. As the threat evolves so does the police posture.
You said that you thought it might be appropriate for Baltimore or Detroit to have APCs. Not everyone in the US would agree with you. Some would even argue that the police do not need rifles, or traffic cameras, or license plate readers, etc. Each community has to decide for itself.

Agreed with the constantly evolving threat but this has to stop somewhere. The APC and Doraville is an example of where things are headed. Things should not be the way.

The NYPD budget is not high because they are buying F-16s… like I said earlier it’s mostly personnel costs. The NYPD cops get paid more because the standard of living in the US is better than Greece, Ukraine or India.

Never realized that Greece is a third world country.

Starting salary for NYPD is $44k. Starting salary for San Francisco Police is $80k. What’s the starting salary for soldier in any of the other countries? It’s around $120 a year for a Greek conscript. Sergeants make $144 a year. For that price, I can rent a company of Greek soldiers and make them pass in review in front of my place every morning. We can’t pay the NYPD in rupees.

Would you like to share a source for that.

You should try rupees in India ofcourse. Today I paid Rs 600 for 10 kg and Rs 130 for 1 kg for two different kinds of basmati rice. The most expensive thing I bought today was a pack of cigarettes. And my monthly cell phone bill is Rs 210.

The officers and much on NYC has a standard of living that is leaps and bounds better than the standard of living for the Indian Border Force.
The salary of an Indian police officer or soldier wouldn’t even cover the NY officer's dry cleaning bill.

You are right. India is dirt poor and we all live in mud huts. So much for the "research it yourself" before typing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adarsh...g_Society_scam

Only example with a wiki page I could find. Organizations like BSF have their own housing, ration & stores and mess system. If they go by army's template then the the ranks do not pay for housing, electricity and get highly subsidized rations and mess and liqour.

So yes, can't afford the dry cleaning tab.

If the police budget for a German city is higher than the Eritrean military, doesn’t it mean the Germans are corrupt or racist or over-policed? Or what if you compare Luxembourg to Sao Paulo, Brazil? NYC spends $2.3billion on waste disposal…that’s 2/3 of the Greek military spending. The budget for the NYFD with ~15k employees is $1.7billion. The budget for the NYPD which has ~50k employees is $4.8billion.

You realize that Germany is not as good an example as you think it is.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-machine-guns/

I don't want to defend Bates, but you are making some very inaccurate statements, not sure if deliberately. According to the news, he is claiming to have completed the training but some of that training has been called into question. He was also allegedly a police officer at another department at one point in his life. The courts will hear all the evidence and make a decision. Additionally, if there was any corruption on the part of the sheriff or any other public official, I suspect that will be dealt with in due time. Certainly, there will be civil consequences. Just fyi, as far as i know most agencies have a reserve officer/deputy program; there is no age limit, but there is strict requirements on training (which should be documented). Reserves can be assigned from routine paperwork to patrol based on the level of training they receive. Here's a story with a good ending...http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/07/justic...deputy-arrest/


Look up “California Highway Patrol” or [State Name]” Police/Troopers
Sheriffs are elected.
LE officers are not elected. They apply for the job and go through rigorous testing and screening. Police chiefs are usually appointed by mayor/city council.
Look up “California Commission on Peace Office Standards and Training (CA POST)”. Most states have similar agencies.

Why would anyone defend Bates but still some people do and no I am doing anything deliberately except seeing you skirting around the age issue.

But you were right about the prior experience.

Bates became a reserve deputy in 2008 and served as a police officer for one year from 1964 to 1965.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/04/robert...cop-insurance/

I am harping 73 years old and you keep hearing 30. Age my friend age.

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You conveniently cherry picked an example of an unrelated agency when you and I are talking about the Sheriff system in US.

Distinctive in law enforcement in the United States, sheriffs are usually elected.

Of the 50 U.S. states, 48 have sheriffs. The two that do not are Alaska (which has no counties), and Connecticut (which has no county governments and has state marshals instead of sheriffs)

Sheriffs are elected to four-year terms in 42 states, two-year terms in two states (New Hampshire and Arkansas), a three-year term in one state (New Jersey) and a six-year term in one state (Massachusetts).[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherif..._United_States

[JarodParker]

A person who has never stepped foot in the US, doesn't have any law enforcement experience and can't accept new information... The US is waiting for your arrival, so you can fix our broke system of law enforcement. Until then, live long and prosper.

[blueblood]

A person who has never stepped foot in the US, doesn't have any law enforcement experience and can't accept new information... The US is waiting for your arrival, so you can fix our broke system of law enforcement. Until then, live long and prosper. Or to paraphrase Limp Bizkit, "Keep trollin', trollin', trollin'... "

While some members replied genuinely and I thanked them for it, you carried on with your rhetoric and skirting. Lets see the pearls of wisdom you dropped.

One could also argue that policing a first world city is more expensive than guarding a third world nation.

The officers and much on NYC has a standard of living that is leaps and bounds better than the standard of living for the Indian Border Force. The salary of an Indian police officer or soldier wouldn’t even cover the NY officer's dry cleaning bill.

Sheriffs are elected. LE officers are not elected.

So my sincerest thanks to you and goodbye.

[davidbfpo]

I've been off SWC for two days and now notice that the tone and words in some recent posts are - simply - not how we conduct ourselves. SWC is known for respecting each other's viewpoints, not what is here.

Stay calm and carry on.

[gute]

I agree with Bob's World that we do in fact have a great deal of gun violence compared to others, but it is a necessary problem. I came on with the Feds in 1992, right about the time there was a shift in tactical training across the country. Speed, surprise and violence of action was thing. At least for my agency this was a response to the drug problems and the associated violence. Much of law enforcement was outgunned for a time. With the War on Drugs came a ton of money to local and state law enforcement and who doesn't want cool gear.

Departments having APCs and MRAPS and such isn't a big deal to me if it is being used for high risk types of operations conducted by SWAT teams. In a lot of places SWAT is being used for most search warrants due to liability. There are local drug task forces out where I work who are not allowed to serve basic dope warrants. Nope, they gotta bring out LAVs and everyone has a long gun. The issue with police weapons isn't a big deal to me either because I believe police having ARs is just the evolution of the firearm.

I also think police in the U.S. are discouraged from going hands on with people - that to is a liability. Broken bones, choke holds, torn this and torn that.

Another thing and this is obviously my opinion. There are a lot of mouthy a-holes out there who are just plain stuck on stupid.

But, the biggest factor in the end is training - IMO.