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Thread: Ukraine: Russo-Ukr War (June-December 2015)

  1. #541
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    As an American in Berlin who has been observing the social media side from the beginning of Maidan, through the Crimean annexation to the Russian open and blatant invasion of eastern Ukraine in August 2014 that the US wipes away as just an "incursion"----

    -----it literally is painful to read an US mainstream online news media that should know better than release the following article as they are in full support of the Russian propaganda machine and yet seem oblivious to it.

    This media outlet should have done their own fact checking but instead rolls over a number of arguments albeit from a different angle but still the same thought streams as the two Congressmen they referenced.

    BUT better YET why did they not send one of their so called journalists to Mariupol and ask to be embedded with the Azov BN?????????


    In order one might say to "check the facts on the ground" in real time and in a reality zone of the truth not fiction.

    I and other social media types have completely destroyed the myth being propagated by the two Congressmen and even pointed out that a Russian lobbyist was behind their efforts--NOTICE The Daily Beast seems to have missed that simple fact.

    Right now the Azov BN if in fact so "Nazi and white supremacist" then why does it enjoy such a high respect and support level in the eyes of the population of the Ukrainian port city of Mariupol???

    Is The Daily Beast attempting o allude to the fact that all Ukrainians are Nazi white supremacists???

    Why because they have been simply fighting and dying in the defense of the Ukraine which they have sworn allegiance to when they joined the MoI as a regular Ukrainian military unit. AND this since the earliest days of the Maidan--and they have lost many along the way in the defense of the Ukraine.

    I am totally surprised that in the article which is not balanced at all --they did not attempt to even question some of what they themselves quote others on--what ever happened to US journalism with the concepts of "fair and balanced" and "due diligence"?

    In some aspects--no actually the entire article reminds me in portions of the slated Russian propaganda that is streaming daily into the US and being simply passed on even in support of Russia or worse yet not even checked and passed on as the "so called truth".

    If one really wants a solid understanding of Azov and the other "volunteer BNs" it is easily accomplished--just Google.

    OR far better yet--if they were already in the Ukraine WHY did they not go straight to the war front and interview directly in the trenches as other reporters have done recently????????? WHAT better way to "fair and balanced".

    Or better yet maybe The Daily Beast should become more active in the social media arena especially the Ukrainian media --I will be personally more than helpful if they need assistance.

    Fair and balanced journalism really needs a helping hand --BUT The Daily Beast needs to fully understand Russian "informational conflict" and understand just how they have been "used" this time as have other mainstream US news media outlets.

    Come on guys--what a title and yet you are not biased in your reporting and you are not slanting to Russian propaganda????

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html

    Jackboot Camp

    07.04.1512:01 AM ET

    Is America Training Neonazis in Ukraine?
    Officially no, but no one in the U.S. government seem to know for sure.

    There are no doubts about the neo-Nazi and white supremacist background of the Azov Battalion, a militia that has positioned itself at the forefront of the fight against Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. As the founder and head of the battalion Andriy Biletsky once put it, “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival.”

    That Russian President Vladimir Putin and his propagandists exploit this fact, using it to build support for their aggression and to undermine the international effort to help Ukraine defend its independence, is undeniable. But knowing that, and wanting to resist that, does not resolve some very important questions about the basic facts.

    What is the relationship of the U.S. government to these people? Is it training them? Might it arm them? Is this, like the Afghan war of the 1980s, one of those cases where we aid and abet the kind of monsters who eventually become our enemies? Concerns about that possibility have been growing on Capitol Hill.

    Because of uncertainties surrounding the Azov Battalion’s role in the U.S. training initiative and worries about the possible supply of shoulder-held anti-aircraft missiles to such characters, the House unanimously adopted bipartisan amendments to H.R. 2685, the “Department of Defense Appropriations Act of 2015.” And one of them specifically blocks training of the “Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitary militia ‘Azov Battalion.’” Representatives John Conyers and Ted Yoho sponsored the amendment to the bill, which was passed unanimously by Congress.

    This is in addition to criteria established in an amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, originally sponsored by Sen. Patrick Leahy, known as “the Leahy Vetting Process.” The Leahy process consists of screening foreign forces applying for U.S. Government training and support to certify that they haven’t committed any “gross human rights violations.” If they are found to have done so, support is withheld.

    But the highly problematic truth is that the U.S. currently has no real way of ensuring that members of neo-Nazi groups like the Azov Battalion are not being trained by U.S. forces, because most, if not all, have not committed a “gross human rights violation.” Even more difficult to determine is whether ex-U.S. military are training crypto-Nazis in a private capacity, and the issues speaks volumes about the complexities that have to be confronted by the United States in its efforts to help Ukraine defend itself from the Russian-supported secessionists.

    In an interview with The Daily Beast, Sgt. Ivan Kharkiv of the Azov battalion talks about his battalion’s experience with U.S. trainers and U.S. volunteers quite fondly, even mentioning U.S. volunteers engineers and medics that are still currently assisting them. He also talks about the significant and active support from the Ukrainian diaspora in the U.S. As for the training they have and continue to receive from numerous foreign armed forces. Kharkiv says “We must take knowledge from all armies… We pay for our mistakes with our lives.”

    Continued.....

    The Ukrainian Ministry of Interior brings what one U.S. official calls a “mishmash” of troops, consisting of volunteers, members of militia battalions and official army to be trained, and the Leahy process exists to check and see if any have committed a “gross violation of human rights,” which most likely they have not—at least not yet. But much less care is given to the question of ideology. When officials are asked for details of any kind regarding how the vetting process actually functions, answers are ambiguous, details are scarce and the explanations become contradictory.

    In an interview with The Daily Beast, the U.S. Army Public Affairs Officer from the 173rd Airborne Brigade training Ukrainian forces in Lviv in western Ukraine, Capt. Steven Modugno, says that no one from the Azov Battalion or Right Sector is being trained in Lviv because the embassy uses the Leahy vetting process, which is in place to make sure no one has committed any kind of gross human rights abuses. When asked about members of the Azov Battalion who have not committed gross human abuses, more specifically how they are screened out, he says, “You know that’s actually a great question. It’s one the State Department would need to answer.”

    Continued.....

    The Daily Beast then interviewed State Department representative, Press Officer Yarina Ferentsevych of the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine. Ferentsevych told us, “At this point, as far as we are aware, no”—that is, no members of Azov. “Whether or not some may be in the lineup, that is possible. But frankly, you know, our vetting screens for human rights violations, not for ideology. Neo-Nazis, you know, can join the U.S. army too. The battalions that are in question have been integrated as part of Ukraine’s National Guard, and so the idea is that they would be eligible for training, but in all honesty I cannot tell you if there are any on the list we train. There were not any in the first rotation as far as I am aware.”

    Ferentsevych confirms that it is practically impossible to know which trainees are from which battalion, “It’s a mishmash of folks: volunteers, soldiers, war heroes, Maidan veterans—I mean I couldn’t tell you, you know, short of investigating the background of each guy.”

    Continued..........

    When we asked PAO Capt. Modugno whether it was possible to detect all the Azov guys who are dispersed into the national guard battalions, he told us, “I don’t know if any of them could get through.” He explained that he is not an expert on the Leahy vetting process, but, “From what I’ve seen here, I haven’t seen any extremists, I’ve seen patriots.” The acting head of Ukraine’s national guard, Mykola Balan, told The Daily Beast, “Azov hasn’t been trained by the U.S. military. Currently they are at the front line.”

    Continued.....

    The Azov Battalion not only answers directly to the Ministry of Interior, but it is ingrained deeply in that structure. The founder and head of Azov, Andriy Biletsky works closely with the Ukrainian Ministry of Interior and as the BBC reported last year, “The Azov Battalion was formed and armed by Ukraine’s interior ministry.”

    Continued............
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-05-2015 at 07:21 AM.

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    As an American in Berlin who has been observing the social media side from the beginning of Maidan, through the Crimean annexation to the Russian open and blatant invasion of eastern Ukraine in August 2014 that the US wipes away as just an "incursion"----

    -----it literally is painful to read an US mainstream online news media that should know better than release the following article as they are in full support of the Russian propaganda machine and yet seem oblivious to it.

    This media outlet should have done their own fact checking but instead rolls over a number of arguments albeit from a different angle but still the same thought streams as the two Congressmen they referenced.

    BUT better YET why did they not send one of their so called journalists to Mariupol and ask to be embedded with the Azov BN?????????


    In order one might say to "check the facts on the ground" in real time and in a reality zone of the truth not fiction.

    I and other social media types have completely destroyed the myth being propagated by the two Congressmen and even pointed out that a Russian lobbyist was behind their efforts--NOTICE The Daily Beast seems to have missed that simple fact.

    Right now the Azov BN if in fact so "Nazi and white supremacist" then why does it enjoy such a high respect and support level in the eyes of the population of the Ukrainian port city of Mariupol???

    Is The Daily Beast attempting o allude to the fact that all Ukrainians are Nazi white supremacists???

    Why because they have been simply fighting and dying in the defense of the Ukraine which they have sworn allegiance to when they joined the MoI as a regular Ukrainian military unit. AND this since the earliest days of the Maidan--and they have lost many along the way in the defense of the Ukraine.

    I am totally surprised that in the article which is not balanced at all --they did not attempt to even question some of what they themselves quote others on--what ever happened to US journalism with the concepts of "fair and balanced" and "due diligence"?

    In some aspects--no actually the entire article reminds me in portions of the slated Russian propaganda that is streaming daily into the US and being simply passed on even in support of Russia or worse yet not even checked and passed on as the "so called truth".

    If one really wants a solid understanding of Azov and the other "volunteer BNs" it is easily accomplished--just Google.

    OR far better yet--if they were already in the Ukraine WHY did they not go straight to the war front and interview directly in the trenches as other reporters have done recently????????? WHAT better way to "fair and balanced".

    Or better yet maybe The Daily Beast should become more active in the social media arena especially the Ukrainian media --I will be personally more than helpful if they need assistance.

    Fair and balanced journalism really needs a helping hand --BUT The Daily Beast needs to fully understand Russian "informational conflict" and understand just how they have been "used" this time as have other mainstream US news media outlets.

    Come on guys--what a title and yet you are not biased in your reporting and you are not slanting to Russian propaganda????

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html

    Jackboot Camp

    07.04.1512:01 AM ET

    Is America Training Neonazis in Ukraine?
    Are the authors attempting in this last paragraph of the article to state openly that all members of the Ukrainian military/government ARE NAZI's as this is exactly the same Russian info war media line they use--so is in effect The Daily Beast working for the Russian info war side of the house?

    As Congressman Charlie Wilson, the godfather of American support for the Afghan mujahedeen once said, looking back on the disaster that followed their “victory,” “These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world… and then we ####ed up the endgame.” The United States’ desire to train Ukrainian troops comes from the right place—the need to stop Russian covert and overt aggression. The problem is that the Azov battalion is nuzzled so deeply into the Ukrainian government that they are nearly impossible to weed out.

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    As an American in Berlin who has been observing the social media side from the beginning of Maidan, through the Crimean annexation to the Russian open and blatant invasion of eastern Ukraine in August 2014 that the US wipes away as just an "incursion"----

    -----it literally is painful to read an US mainstream online news media that should know better than release the following article as they are in full support of the Russian propaganda machine and yet seem oblivious to it.

    This media outlet should have done their own fact checking but instead rolls over a number of arguments albeit from a different angle but still the same thought streams as the two Congressmen they referenced.

    BUT better YET why did they not send one of their so called journalists to Mariupol and ask to be embedded with the Azov BN?????????


    In order one might say to "check the facts on the ground" in real time and in a reality zone of the truth not fiction.

    I and other social media types have completely destroyed the myth being propagated by the two Congressmen and even pointed out that a Russian lobbyist was behind their efforts--NOTICE The Daily Beast seems to have missed that simple fact.

    Right now the Azov BN if in fact so "Nazi and white supremacist" then why does it enjoy such a high respect and support level in the eyes of the population of the Ukrainian port city of Mariupol???

    Is The Daily Beast attempting o allude to the fact that all Ukrainians are Nazi white supremacists???

    Why because they have been simply fighting and dying in the defense of the Ukraine which they have sworn allegiance to when they joined the MoI as a regular Ukrainian military unit. AND this since the earliest days of the Maidan--and they have lost many along the way in the defense of the Ukraine.

    I am totally surprised that in the article which is not balanced at all --they did not attempt to even question some of what they themselves quote others on--what ever happened to US journalism with the concepts of "fair and balanced" and "due diligence"?

    In some aspects--no actually the entire article reminds me in portions of the slated Russian propaganda that is streaming daily into the US and being simply passed on even in support of Russia or worse yet not even checked and passed on as the "so called truth".

    If one really wants a solid understanding of Azov and the other "volunteer BNs" it is easily accomplished--just Google.

    OR far better yet--if they were already in the Ukraine WHY did they not go straight to the war front and interview directly in the trenches as other reporters have done recently????????? WHAT better way to "fair and balanced".

    Or better yet maybe The Daily Beast should become more active in the social media arena especially the Ukrainian media --I will be personally more than helpful if they need assistance.

    Fair and balanced journalism really needs a helping hand --BUT The Daily Beast needs to fully understand Russian "informational conflict" and understand just how they have been "used" this time as have other mainstream US news media outlets.

    Come on guys--what a title and yet you are not biased in your reporting and you are not slanting to Russian propaganda????

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html

    Jackboot Camp

    07.04.1512:01 AM ET

    Is America Training Neonazis in Ukraine?
    The Daily Beast should do a far better job at fact checking those they quote---spend some time and double check these two sources and who they ultimately work for info war wise????

    Jack Harris, the Official Opposition Critic for Defense for the New Democratic Party of Canada raised concerns about what forces Canada could end up training. “If they’ve integrated (Azov) into the larger organization, then we will be seeking clarification from Mr. Kenney [Canadian Minister of Defense] about what is happening here,” Harris said. Retired Canadian diplomat turned consultant for the International Organization of Migration in Moscow, James Bissett has argued that it would not be possible to detect all the Azov members dispersed into the National Guard battalions. Bissett told the Ottawa Citizen, “These militias [such as Azov] are being merged with Ukraine’s military so we won’t be able to determine who we are training.”

    Example--quoting a Canadian working fully for a Russian government agency the IOM which was opened in 1992 by Russia , is fully funded by Russia and is part and parcel of the Russian government makes this source "fair and balanced" AND not in the least bit biased?

    A well known US professor just got fired from a major Russian university for just having "western pictures on the walls of his office--and the Russian rector's comments--"well in these times". So a Canadian expat working for a Russian agency is what "not going to walk the party line if he wants to continue working in Moscow"????

    AND a rep from the opposition party in Canada is not going to take the time to "ding" the ruling Canadian political party??? WHY was there no attempt to contact the "official Canadian government"? Especially since Canada has been a major supporter of the Ukraine in a number of ways.

    Come on TDB--I know you can fact check better than this--slanting is extremely easy and makes for great articles--but due diligence is something the US media use to pride itself on.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-05-2015 at 07:48 AM.

  4. #544
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    AND the war just keeps grinding onward on the eastern front--YET not a single comment from Obama. Hollande, Merkel--it is almost like they simply want it to "disappear".

    Especially since Hollande and Merkel were key in getting Minsk 1 and 2 done.

    Shellings and ground attacks all night and into this morning.

    1st Guards Tank Army "...to coordinate a military group deployed on the border with Ukraine"? http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1324525.html

    Other sources (translations):
    http://rushincrash.com/uncategorized...army-katukova/
    http://latestnewsresource.com/en/new...armii-katukova

    Russian Ground Forces has a new armoured formation garrisoned in Moscow region: 1st Guards Tank Army (Interfax 4 Jun) pic.twitter.com/T3ZMgO0AW7

    Well so much for the “so called demilitarization” and Russian pullback—did not pull back artillery.

    08:12 #Maryinka @hyeva_maryinka [vk] "As for now it is quiet, the night was hot a bit"

    07:45 @Shrik_E It ceased https://twitter.com/loogunda/status/617551965850062848

    Russian artillery fire near frontline #Starohnativka / #Bila_Kamyanka (west of #Rozdolne where RU forces conc) 5 July pic.twitter.com/cLrEay6SGS

    07:16 #Starohnativka @Staroignatievca They've ceased

    07:32 #Dokuchaevsk & #Novotroitske @Shrik_E Small arms and artillery

    06:50 #Starobesheve @hubeshevo It sounds like an artillery battle between #Starohnativka & #Rozdolne is in progress

    #Starohnativka @Staroignatievca
    06:16 Artillery pounds
    06:40 Outgoing for sure,maybe incoming,battle intensifies,tanks joined

    00:15 #Luhansk East @LuhanskJunta We also hear some large stuff. 2 times just now
    @Renovatio_UA Audible, but not large one

    00:13 #Luhansk VVAUSh area @NataButikova Again this large calibre[machine gun]
    00:15 GerStal area @roroko1980 I can also hear

    07:34 #Dokuchaevsk @shuttle1907 Shooting in the south town part, ambulance sped [there]

  5. #545
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    A recent Russian ethnic development study seemed to indicate that by 2025 Muslims will be the dominate ethnic group in all of Russia--far out numbering ethnic Russians.

    No wonder why IS is supporting fellow Islamists in Russia these days.

    Russia's Invisible War: Crackdown on Salafi Muslims in Dagestan https://youtu.be/rfjsgSiBkZQ via @YouTube

    newsru.com/russia/04jul2015/kizilurt.html … Two militants are killed in a "counter-terrorist" special op in Dagestan. 44 pounds of explosives discovered.

    More Russian info war----
    Russian TV misleads viewers about scale of European sympathy for Ukraine separatists http://bbc.in/1GWA1i8 pic.twitter.com/VdNLEuNbID

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    An article well worth reading from someone knowledgeable in the field of Russia and Russian political drivers.

    http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.de/...al-divide.html

    Saturday, July 4, 2015

    Moscow Brings Its Traditional Divide-and-Rule Approach Back to the Three Baltic Countries

    Paul Goble

    Staunton, July 4 – A call by some Duma members for the Russian government to review and declare illegal the Soviet government’s recognition of Baltic independence in September 1991 has attracted widespread attention and concern as an indication of Moscow’s intentions but ultimately ridicule as otherwise meaningless grandstanding.

    But there are other straws in the wind which suggest some in the Russian government are laying the groundwork for a more aggressive stance against the Baltic states, and two of them which have appeared this week, while they have received little notice internationally, may ultimately be a more important signal of the Kremlin’s plans.

    That is because they reflect the longstanding Russian tactic of “divide-and-rule,” which in this case means the playing up of differences or even the creation of differences where they do not exist among the three Baltic countries in order to make it more difficult for these three NATO members to cooperate with each other and with the Western alliance as well.

    The first involves a Latvian activist of the Association Against Nazism, a group that has often followed Moscow’s line. Janis Kruzinis has launched a petition campaign on the manabalss.lv portal to seek “’the return of the territory of Palanga” from Lithuania (ru.delfi.lt/news/live/latviec-sobiraet-podpisi-za-vozvraschenie-palangi-latvii.d?id=68404500).

    Kruzinis says that such a return would resolve “a historical dispute about the sea border between Latvia and Lithuania and return Palanga kray which historically was the territory of Latvia.” Latvia would benefit, he continues, because there are supposedly oil deposits in the region and because of new jobs for Latvians in the restored Latvian region.

    He wants the Latvian parliament seek the help of the EU to review the agreement about the borders between Latvia and Lithuania. According to him, Latvia handed over Palanga kray to Lithuania in 1921 because “Lithuania did not have an outlet to the Baltic Sea.” But in 1923, Lithuania obtained Klaipeda kray which gave it one but did not return Palanga to Riga’s control.
    In a little over two weeks, slightly more than 10,000 people have signed Kruzinis’ petition, although it is unclear what this will lead to except for the possibility of sparking tensions between Latvians and Lithuanians, something Moscow would be certain to exploit in the event of a crisis.

    The second case is more curious but equally disturbing. It comes from the pen of Dimitry Klensky, notorious for his pro-Russian and anti-Estonian writings and activism. In “an appeal compatriots,” the activist notes that five pro-Russian activists were arrested in Riga at the end of June but that Russians in Estonia have failed to react (iarex.ru/articles/51867.html).

    “The Union of Organizations of Russian Compatriots of Estonia and the Coordinating Council of Russian Compatriots of Estonia have remained silent. Social and cultural organizations and rights activists have as well, including the Russian School in Estonia, the Pushkin Institute, the Russian Academic Society of Estonia, the Assembly of National Minorities of Estonia, the local Russian press and intelligentsia,” Klensky says.

    Moreover, he continues, “Russian-speaking and Russian social-political activists, representatives of political parties which consider themselves to be on the left, the Social Democrats and the Centrists have said nothing as well.” And the major Russian websites in Estonia have ignored what is going on in Riga.

    “This creates the impression,” he continues, “that in Estonia, the local Security Police has already successfully dealt with the suppression of any dissent” much as their predecessors did in pre-war Estonia, albeit with more modern methods, including “easily falsified electronic elections” and buying off ethnic Russians with grants and high pay.

    “Silence in such conditions,” Klensky says, “means approval of the existing situation when democratic institutions have become decorations in the form of democracy. The silence of the Russian and Russian-language population, almost a third of the population of the country, speaks to its moral-ethnic repression” by “an ethnocratic state.”

    Klensky, of course, is not open to the possibility that the Baltic countries have treated the ethnic Russians sufficiently well that the overwhelming majority of them are loyal citizens even if they identify with Russian culture. But unfortunately, he is not the only one of whom that is true, and Moscow seems set to launch a new effort on the basis of its own misconception.

  7. #547
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    I would personally suggest to this author that he simply take the time to Google---"Putin wants a new Yalta" and then read ehat is available in the open source world and THEN ask himself a simple question''Is what I am writing suggesting here actually what Putin wants from the West"---if the answer is yes then the author has it all wrong in the following article.

    After that THEN he should Google "what are Putin's three geo political goals that he wants and has voiced since 2002".

    THEN he should ask himself---is the new Russian UW strategy just the "means to achieve these three geo political goals as defined by the current Russian political warfare?

    But to refresh the author--they are;

    1. discredit and destroy NATO as a military force to be reckoned with in Europe thus allowing Russian military hegemony over European

    2. discredit and damage the EU as a political and economic force in Europe allowing Russian political and economical hegemony

    3. disconnect the US from Europe thus replacing the US military/political and economic influence in Europe by Russia

    So in view of all of the above and in full view that sanctions and "diplomacy" have basically failed in deterring Russian expansionism using language as the doctrine---WHAT is this article states that it eill counter what Putin wants as defined above??

    Actually Dtente Plus is a simple rehash of what Putin really wants--"a new Yalta" where Russia has a "zone of privileged control".

    Notice Russia does not talk about "sphere of influence"--AND they had deliberately not defined "what a zone of privileged control actually means".

    For Putin that is a zone from Portugal to the far eastern Russian--all under Russian hegemony.

    THE author absolutely does not go into this and WHY should he as then his whole thesis for the article would be null and void.

    I would and the author does not argue the point---WE the US have absolutely no strategy so I am amazed he is talking about one that failed????

    The selected two paras from the article go to the heart of what many pundits in the US simply refuse to accept---Russia has a strategy--it is the destruction of "neo-liberalism" as represented by the US and the replacement of the US by Russia as the European hegemon.

    AND if talking and sanctions are not getting Putin's attention then it is time to use other means to indicate he has crossed a fine line in Europe.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...source=twitter

    Reset
    07.05.1512:01 AM ET

    Americas Losing Russia Strategy

    Leslie H. Gelb

    Confronting Putin isnt enough to restore peace on Russias borders. Whats needed is Dtente Plus.


    Continued......................

    The aim of a new diplomatic strategyI like to call it Dtente Plusis to explore seriously whether Russia is prepared to work with the U.S. in Europe and elsewhere to solve or mitigate genuine common problems based on genuine shared or overlapping interests. Dtente Plus, which I have elaborated fully in the current issue of The National Interest magazine, has to proceed from the commonsensical judgment that Russia does have legitimate interests that should not be ignored, and that Russia remains a great power in many parts of the world, if no longer a superpower.

    Russia has been helpful to the U.S. in the Iran nuclear negotiations and probably carries more clout in these talks than Washingtons other partners. Moscow also has been very helpful in fighting international terrorism, where the Russians have significant capabilities. Indeed they are probably more worried about the rise of Islamic terrorism in the Middle East than is the U.S., because they see a direct and profound connection between these Sunni jihadis and Muslim extremists in the North Caucuses. These shared fears provide a shared interest, say, in working with President Bashar al-Assad of Syria against ISIS. And its not bad at all to be close enough to Moscow to play it off against China, and of course, vice versa.

    None of this, however, solves the matters of Ukraine and the Baltic States. These situations are very dangerous and made much more so by Russias new and threatening rhetoric and modernized nuclear capabilities. It should make Westerners worry, really worry, when Moscow refers to using nuclear weapons as a de-escalatory measure. This kind of talk makes use of nuclear weapons sound too easy. Simply put, the West should not want to test Moscows underlying intentions here, nor provoke Moscow into testing Americas interests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    I would personally suggest to this author that he simply take the time to Google---"Putin wants a new Yalta" and then read ehat is available in the open source world and THEN ask himself a simple question''Is what I am writing suggesting here actually what Putin wants from the West"---if the answer is yes then the author has it all wrong in the following article.

    After that THEN he should Google "what are Putin's three geo political goals that he wants and has voiced since 2002".

    THEN he should ask himself---is the new Russian UW strategy just the "means to achieve these three geo political goals as defined by the current Russian political warfare?

    But to refresh the author--they are;

    1. discredit and destroy NATO as a military force to be reckoned with in Europe thus allowing Russian military hegemony over European

    2. discredit and damage the EU as a political and economic force in Europe allowing Russian political and economical hegemony

    3. disconnect the US from Europe thus replacing the US military/political and economic influence in Europe by Russia

    So in view of all of the above and in full view that sanctions and "diplomacy" have basically failed in deterring Russian expansionism using language as the doctrine---WHAT is this article states that it eill counter what Putin wants as defined above??

    Actually Detente Plus is a simple rehash of what Putin really wants--"a new Yalta" where Russia has a "zone of privileged control".

    Notice Russia does not talk about "sphere of influence"--AND they had deliberately not defined "what a zone of privileged control actually means".

    For Putin that is a zone from Portugal to the far eastern Russian--all under Russian hegemony.

    THE author absolutely does not go into this and WHY should he as then his whole thesis for the article would be null and void.

    I would and the author does not argue the point---WE the US have absolutely no strategy so I am amazed he is talking about one that failed????

    The selected two paras from the article go to the heart of what many pundits in the US simply refuse to accept---Russia has a strategy--it is the destruction of "neo-liberalism" as represented by the US and the replacement of the US by Russia as the European hegemon.

    AND if talking and sanctions are not getting Putin's attention then it is time to use other means to indicate he has crossed a fine line in Europe.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...source=twitter

    Reset
    07.05.1512:01 AM ET

    Americas Losing Russia Strategy

    Leslie H. Gelb

    Confronting Putin isnt enough to restore peace on Russias borders. Whats needed is Dtente Plus.


    Continued......................
    I would argue the author does not get it--and has swallowed hook, line and sinker the Russian myth--"we need the Russians help in Syria, Iran and with IS". Russian propaganda has been singing that "myth" now since the Crimea annexation and that this author did not mention that is in itself interesting. It is the Russian way of signaling "leave us alone in the Ukraine and we will assist you" thus we can get back to business as usual.

    Am mildly surprised the author does not recognize that since the US has no real Russian strategy the US has in fact taken a hit to it's image and some in Europe simply are now starting to believe the US does not stand behind anything it says, does and or signs.

    Syria--Russian has supported Assad with literally billions in weapons and supplied everything he has needed to keep bombing his own civilian population and YET Russia has resisted calls to stop the weapons and allow humanitarian aid into the country. Even this week Russia openly called the West out for not supporting Assad and stated they would continue to support him which would I assume mean still shipping weapons.

    Right now Assad is on the verge of losing power as the Syrian rebels have basically been defeating his army and attacking IS massively over the last year--Russia is on the losing side SO exactly why do we need their help?????

    Iran---Russia has been doing weapons deals and oil/food deals behind our backs for years as well continuing to do nuclear power plant deals--it has been the tough sanctions that has brought Iran to the table NOT Russian assistance.

    IS---right now if one is seriously looking at IS threats--IS is a direct threat to Russia as by 2025 the ethnic majority of Russians will be Muslims not ethnic Russians and IS has declared literally war on Russia in her southern republics and Russia is fighting right now a massive hidden anti Islamic war in Dagestan.

    Russia needs our help not vice versa so why are we allowing Russia to dictate the terms of the relationship??

    So with that mind why is the article by this author helpful???? It is not ---as it does not provide any form of answers as it misses completely Russian geo political intent.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-05-2015 at 09:10 AM.

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    OSCE_SMM: Ukrainian side and "DPR" failed to agree on plan of demilitarization for #Shyrokyne

    http://www.mariupol.tv/news/war/mari...kino_obse.html … via @Mariupol_TV

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    As an American in Berlin who has been observing the social media side from the beginning of Maidan, through the Crimean annexation to the Russian open and blatant invasion of eastern Ukraine in August 2014 that the US wipes away as just an "incursion"----

    -----it literally is painful to read an US mainstream online news media that should know better than release the following article as they are in full support of the Russian propaganda machine and yet seem oblivious to it.

    This media outlet should have done their own fact checking but instead rolls over a number of arguments albeit from a different angle but still the same thought streams as the two Congressmen they referenced.

    BUT better YET why did they not send one of their so called journalists to Mariupol and ask to be embedded with the Azov BN?????????


    In order one might say to "check the facts on the ground" in real time and in a reality zone of the truth not fiction.

    I and other social media types have completely destroyed the myth being propagated by the two Congressmen and even pointed out that a Russian lobbyist was behind their efforts--NOTICE The Daily Beast seems to have missed that simple fact.

    Right now the Azov BN if in fact so "Nazi and white supremacist" then why does it enjoy such a high respect and support level in the eyes of the population of the Ukrainian port city of Mariupol???

    Is The Daily Beast attempting o allude to the fact that all Ukrainians are Nazi white supremacists???

    Why because they have been simply fighting and dying in the defense of the Ukraine which they have sworn allegiance to when they joined the MoI as a regular Ukrainian military unit. AND this since the earliest days of the Maidan--and they have lost many along the way in the defense of the Ukraine.

    I am totally surprised that in the article which is not balanced at all --they did not attempt to even question some of what they themselves quote others on--what ever happened to US journalism with the concepts of "fair and balanced" and "due diligence"?

    In some aspects--no actually the entire article reminds me in portions of the slated Russian propaganda that is streaming daily into the US and being simply passed on even in support of Russia or worse yet not even checked and passed on as the "so called truth".

    If one really wants a solid understanding of Azov and the other "volunteer BNs" it is easily accomplished--just Google.

    OR far better yet--if they were already in the Ukraine WHY did they not go straight to the war front and interview directly in the trenches as other reporters have done recently????????? WHAT better way to "fair and balanced".

    Or better yet maybe The Daily Beast should become more active in the social media arena especially the Ukrainian media --I will be personally more than helpful if they need assistance.

    Fair and balanced journalism really needs a helping hand --BUT The Daily Beast needs to fully understand Russian "informational conflict" and understand just how they have been "used" this time as have other mainstream US news media outlets.

    Come on guys--what a title and yet you are not biased in your reporting and you are not slanting to Russian propaganda????

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html

    Jackboot Camp

    07.04.1512:01 AM ET

    Is America Training Neonazis in Ukraine?
    If the author had really wanted to shake some trees in the US--just why is it that the author seems to have forgotten that there are eight different Russian neo Nazi groups fighting in the Donbass AND why has he not reported on the Russian neo Nazi/ultra nationalist meeting held recently in St. Petersburg?

    There were also reps from the various European neo right/ultra nationalists groups as well and two from the US white supremacist group the Charleston killer got his motivation from.

    Why is that???

    And if he had done is home work he would have known this as well.

    Better slap an embargo in Germany then, most of its towns have "Naziish" symbols as their coat of arms pic.twitter.com/ZqIIn4fWIi


    Social media has published reams of photos, FB pages, videos and interviews on Russian Nazi's and Nazi groups who are currently fighting in eastern ukraine--YET not a single comment by the author of just how is that Russian neo Nazi's are fighting "so called Ukrainian neo Nazi's " who conducted a junta in Kyiv---??

    "Nazi's fighting Nazi's in Central Europe"--now that is a title.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-05-2015 at 11:09 AM.

  11. #551
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    REALITYCHECK
    "In our forces, 90% are Russians, and the rest are citizens of Donetsk."
    - A.Negrebetskikh;deputy commander of the DPR army

    BreakingNews
    5 Ukrainian troops KIA
    10 WIA
    in Russian attacks across the #Minsk demarcation line yesterday.


    Novorossiya" Kamaz and Ural w/ "DPR" plates.
    Support vehicles not yet.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPo6KNIRDSs
    pic.twitter.com/6XYWDjiVI4

    Crimean nightclub owner says it's a big mystery why there are no customers this year. Is it really a mystery? pic.twitter.com/Eek8UOtuMN

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    Sigh............................what can one say about Russian propaganda these days?

    Another perfect example of Russian propaganda 4Ds—dismiss, distract, distort, dismay designed to create the 2Ds—distrust and doubt.

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150705/1024224498.html

    Dutch Draft MH17 Crash Report ‘Inconclusive’ - Russian Aviation Official

    Russia

    12:54 05.07.2015

    A Russian aviation official said a draft Dutch report into last year's crash of Malaysian Airlines flight 17 in eastern Ukraine "raises more questions than it gives answers."

    MH17 International Tribunal Would Be Untimely, Counterproductive – Moscow

    The Dutch Safety Board has made the draft available to representatives of Malaysia, Ukraine, the US, Russia, Britain, Australia and the Netherlands.

    Oleg Storchevoi, a deputy chief of Rosaviatsiya, said Thursday the agency had complaints regarding both the technical data and the arguments in the report, according to Russian news agencies. He gave no further details.

    Russia insists that the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 was shot down by either a Ukrainian BUK surface-to-air missile or a rocket fired by a Ukrainian Air Force jet.

    The Netherlands has said that it wants to set up an international tribunal to prosecute those suspected of having shot down flight MH17.

    Russia opposed the idea with Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov calling the plan "untimely and counterproductive."

    Without Russia’s cooperation at the UN Security Council, the chances of holding such a tribunal look fairly slim.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Sigh............................what can one say about Russian propaganda these days?

    Another perfect example of Russian propaganda 4Ds—dismiss, distract, distort, dismay designed to create the 2Ds—distrust and doubt.

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150705/1024224498.html

    Dutch Draft MH17 Crash Report ‘Inconclusive’ - Russian Aviation Official

    Russia

    12:54 05.07.2015

    A Russian aviation official said a draft Dutch report into last year's crash of Malaysian Airlines flight 17 in eastern Ukraine "raises more questions than it gives answers."

    MH17 International Tribunal Would Be Untimely, Counterproductive – Moscow
    All 6 propaganda Ds in one press release--not easy but Sputnik makes it possible.

  14. #554
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    Latitude 67N SIGINT @uascan
    Some RuAF VHF conms activity in baltic sea. IL20?

    Some interesting facts and stats on Russian state TV news and how it has changed during the Ukraine crisis http://www.bbc.co.uk/monitoring/how-...ukraine-crisis

    Footage
    Russian Army "Battalion Diesel" tank training in occupied #Donbas.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG9untUOL5Y
    pic.twitter.com/vPfrl2zBlL

    Russian mercenary returning from Ukraine: "70% of fighters in Donbass are Russians. Locals are not serious fighters." http://karelnovosti.ru/society/dobro...e-s-nacistami/

    RF logic emerges > @Amb_Yakovenko: After agreement with Iran no justification for US missile shield in Europe pic.twitter.com/oiwjBrW85N”

    Seems Russian ambassador forgot the Iranian long range missile developments—wonder why????
    WHICH BTW did not fall under the nuclear negotiations and still be sanctioned.


    Haven't seen a Russian tank in Ukraine video for at least 50 mins. So here's a fresh one, 5 Jul https://youtu.be/MG9untUOL5Y?t=1s

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    As an American in Berlin who has been observing the social media side from the beginning of Maidan, through the Crimean annexation to the Russian open and blatant invasion of eastern Ukraine in August 2014 that the US wipes away as just an "incursion"----

    -----it literally is painful to read an US mainstream online news media that should know better than release the following article as they are in full support of the Russian propaganda machine and yet seem oblivious to it.

    This media outlet should have done their own fact checking but instead rolls over a number of arguments albeit from a different angle but still the same thought streams as the two Congressmen they referenced.

    BUT better YET why did they not send one of their so called journalists to Mariupol and ask to be embedded with the Azov BN?????????


    In order one might say to "check the facts on the ground" in real time and in a reality zone of the truth not fiction.

    I and other social media types have completely destroyed the myth being propagated by the two Congressmen and even pointed out that a Russian lobbyist was behind their efforts--NOTICE The Daily Beast seems to have missed that simple fact.

    Right now the Azov BN if in fact so "Nazi and white supremacist" then why does it enjoy such a high respect and support level in the eyes of the population of the Ukrainian port city of Mariupol???

    Is The Daily Beast attempting o allude to the fact that all Ukrainians are Nazi white supremacists???

    Why because they have been simply fighting and dying in the defense of the Ukraine which they have sworn allegiance to when they joined the MoI as a regular Ukrainian military unit. AND this since the earliest days of the Maidan--and they have lost many along the way in the defense of the Ukraine.

    I am totally surprised that in the article which is not balanced at all --they did not attempt to even question some of what they themselves quote others on--what ever happened to US journalism with the concepts of "fair and balanced" and "due diligence"?

    In some aspects--no actually the entire article reminds me in portions of the slated Russian propaganda that is streaming daily into the US and being simply passed on even in support of Russia or worse yet not even checked and passed on as the "so called truth".

    If one really wants a solid understanding of Azov and the other "volunteer BNs" it is easily accomplished--just Google.

    OR far better yet--if they were already in the Ukraine WHY did they not go straight to the war front and interview directly in the trenches as other reporters have done recently????????? WHAT better way to "fair and balanced".

    Or better yet maybe The Daily Beast should become more active in the social media arena especially the Ukrainian media --I will be personally more than helpful if they need assistance.

    Fair and balanced journalism really needs a helping hand --BUT The Daily Beast needs to fully understand Russian "informational conflict" and understand just how they have been "used" this time as have other mainstream US news media outlets.

    Come on guys--what a title and yet you are not biased in your reporting and you are not slanting to Russian propaganda????

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html

    Jackboot Camp

    07.04.1512:01 AM ET

    Is America Training Neonazis in Ukraine?
    Had thought Gelb was "channeling"--the question was for who?????

    Had assumed it was for the WH as they are the supposedly the greatest "soft power negotiators"????? Who at least in the Ukraine have not achieved a single point and have struggled badly with Iran.


    John Schindler @20committee

    Wonder who in the WH Les Gelb cleared this piece with http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-strategy.html
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-05-2015 at 04:13 PM.

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    Slow-motion footage of GWP's alleged car at the #Russia base in #Ukraine
    https://youtu.be/BfudOH96vq4

    OSCE to patrol Sakhanka as fears it may become the new Shyrokyne - Hug
    http://112.ua/ato/missiya-obse-budet...ug-242467.html

    No Lentsov, but plenty of Russian Armed Forces staff officers (JCCC reps) in #Shyrokyne 5 Jul http://uatoday.tv/politics/osce-allo...ol-450582.html … pic.twitter.com/jxp6d4YjV6

    Russia sees antidote to color revolutions in limiting info access to control public opinion. http://regnum.ru/news/1939714.html … pic.twitter.com/f13DHdxTSF

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    https://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.c...nse-regiments/

    Who’s Fighting in the Donbass?

    Ten “New” Chemical Defense Regiments

    Posted on July 5, 2015

    In late June, Mil.ru provided comments by the Deputy Chief of Radiological, Chemical, and Biological Defense (RKhBZ) Troops, General-Major Igor Klimov. He said:

    “Development of the troops of RKhB defense is currently directed at supporting conditions for an adequate response to all possible threats — radiological, chemical, and biological.”

    The RKhBZ Troops are capable of completing missions for the Armed Forces and the state as a whole, according to him.

    But Klimov added:

    “One should note that just in 2014 alone ten regiments of RKhBZ were formed in the composition of combined arms armies.”

    At the same time, the TO&E structure of the four independent RKhBZ brigades of the military districts was “optimized.” That means, of course, reduced, cut, slashed, etc.

    Klimov added:


    “In 2016-2020, the composition and TO&E of formations, military units and organizations of the RKhBZ Troops will improve with the goal of guaranteeing fulfillment of RKhBZ missions for Armed Forces groupings in armed conflicts and local wars, eliminating the effects of emergency situations, and conducting research in the applied sciences (chemistry, biology, biochemistry, genetics, biotechnology).”

    Mil.ru also noted that RKhBZ formations, units, and organizations will undergo a transition to new org-shtat structures as they receive new types of weapons and equipment.

    The ten “new” regiments look like this:
    ◾Western MD — one each in Nizhegorod and Leningrad Oblasts. The one in Leningrad is on the site of what has been an RKhBZ storage base.
    ◾Southern MD — one each in Sevastopol, Ingushetia, and Volgograd. Sevastopol reportedly is the 4th Independent RKhBZ Regiment.
    ◾Central MD — one each in Samara and Altay Kray.
    ◾Eastern MD — one each in Buryatia, Chita, and Amur Oblast. The one in Chita has been a storage base.

    The shift from brigades is creating regiments that aren’t really “new.” It’s a reshuffling of existing RKhBZ units to integrate them into Russia’s combined arms armies. They will be army- rather than MD-level assets.

    The “new regiments” are rather sparse. Most press indicates they will have about 300-600 personnel and 100-200 pieces of equipment each. In Soviet times, a combined arms army had several RKhBZ battalions including recon, protection, decon, flamethrower, and smoke.

    Perhaps RKhBZ is returning to army-level control because of the growing role of thermobaric rocket launchers like the TOS-1A in Russia’s fire support plans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    https://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.c...nse-regiments/

    Who’s Fighting in the Donbass?

    Ten “New” Chemical Defense Regiments

    Posted on July 5, 2015
    We have already seen the TOS-1 and 1A being used at the tactical fire support level against the Ukrainian Army before major offensives.

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    Russian #propaganda: deputy PM #Rogozin on NATO drills in #Odesa: "Germans return to [WWII] honour sites" https://twitter.com/zvezdanews/statu...25280807972864

    1 yr ago, a bizarre #propaganda #fake about "crucified boy" was birthed by #Russia #RussiaLies
    http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-...-about-ukraine … pic.twitter.com/oVnv2ACTAT

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    I would personally suggest to this author that he simply take the time to Google---"Putin wants a new Yalta" and then read ehat is available in the open source world and THEN ask himself a simple question''Is what I am writing suggesting here actually what Putin wants from the West"---if the answer is yes then the author has it all wrong in the following article.

    After that THEN he should Google "what are Putin's three geo political goals that he wants and has voiced since 2002".

    THEN he should ask himself---is the new Russian UW strategy just the "means to achieve these three geo political goals as defined by the current Russian political warfare?

    But to refresh the author--they are;

    1. discredit and destroy NATO as a military force to be reckoned with in Europe thus allowing Russian military hegemony over European

    2. discredit and damage the EU as a political and economic force in Europe allowing Russian political and economical hegemony

    3. disconnect the US from Europe thus replacing the US military/political and economic influence in Europe by Russia

    So in view of all of the above and in full view that sanctions and "diplomacy" have basically failed in deterring Russian expansionism using language as the doctrine---WHAT is this article states that it eill counter what Putin wants as defined above??

    Actually Dtente Plus is a simple rehash of what Putin really wants--"a new Yalta" where Russia has a "zone of privileged control".

    Notice Russia does not talk about "sphere of influence"--AND they had deliberately not defined "what a zone of privileged control actually means".

    For Putin that is a zone from Portugal to the far eastern Russian--all under Russian hegemony.

    THE author absolutely does not go into this and WHY should he as then his whole thesis for the article would be null and void.

    I would and the author does not argue the point---WE the US have absolutely no strategy so I am amazed he is talking about one that failed????

    The selected two paras from the article go to the heart of what many pundits in the US simply refuse to accept---Russia has a strategy--it is the destruction of "neo-liberalism" as represented by the US and the replacement of the US by Russia as the European hegemon.

    AND if talking and sanctions are not getting Putin's attention then it is time to use other means to indicate he has crossed a fine line in Europe.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...source=twitter

    Reset
    07.05.1512:01 AM ET

    Americas Losing Russia Strategy

    Leslie H. Gelb

    Confronting Putin isnt enough to restore peace on Russias borders. Whats needed is Dtente Plus.


    Continued......................
    If Gelb is in fact "channeling" for the WH--would then suggest both take the time to check this social media open source analysis on Russian Nazi's in eastern Ukraine.

    http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2015...brid-army.html

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