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Thread: Ukraine: Russo-Ukr War (June-December 2015)

  1. #1301
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    Appears the Russian MFA—did not get the social media messages that the front cover picture was taken from some place other than the Ukraine—

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    Investigation Committee published the White Book of crimes committed in south-eastern #Ukraine http://tass.ru/en/russia/812278 … pic.twitter.com/HdnWPQdniO

    Russian Book on #Ukraine Conflict With Fake Photo. Time to sue Russia for libel and slander!
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...to/526890.html … pic.twitter.com/arLI5vnAOO

  2. #1302
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    UAVs in Zaporizhie region, caches of weapons in Kharkiv region and North of Luhansk region http://liveuamap.com pic.twitter.com/sbhPLHWhOe

    Part of the heavy Russian howitzers of DNR in Donetsk. pic.twitter.com/nn6X58ejKv http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/4-augus...dnr-in-donetsk

    Russian troops and her mercenaries just keep on moving around all of their heavy weapons to avoid detection by OSCE AND in complete violation of Minsk 2 and YET the West seems to think they can “trust” Putin??????

    Footage
    Invasion forces move 152 mm Msta-B around (must be in depots or outside Ukraine).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj6RVBBNEx4 … pic.twitter.com/7MvIRe0o2x

    There is a reason we keep on tweeting about Russian Ground Forces motor rifle, tank, artillery and logistics combat readiness: They're ready

  3. #1303
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    Appears Russian tank drivers need more training---
    Tank turns over at military games in Russia
    http://uatoday.tv/news/tank-turns-ov...ia-468476.html … pic.twitter.com/1GNxH0OpWe

    Cool look at the Cossack conundrum in east #Ukraine, via @AndrewKramerNYT http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/wo...aine.html?_r=0

    More Ukrainian police moves against smuggling and corruption---

    Record bulk of illegally produced amber seized in Rivne
    http://www.unian.info/politics/11078...-in-rivne.html … pic.twitter.com/lflEcM9d1y

    Mariupol activists speak ab alleged authorities' misuse of state funds (UAH 2M) disbursed to repair houses damaged by Jan shelling –presser
    Claimed five houses were damaged--were not then they pocketed the money.

  4. #1304
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Let’s see three Russian trolls argue the article is rubbish, then the Russia mercenaries deny today that the nuclear waste storage site has not been breached BUT offer no video proof.

    But the OSCE cannot confirm nor deny as the Russian mercenaries do not allow them access to the site.

    Tend to think with OSCE not being allowed to check ie confirm and or deny------the UK Times might in fact be correct----
    Maxim Tucker @MaxRTucker
    .@Newsweek has now uploaded #Ukraine's 'DPR dirty bomb' documents here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/273410562/...e-Documentshey … Given to OSCE, US, UK before publication.

    OSCE still cannot get into the nuclear waster storage site---Russian mercenaries refused to allow them to enter the bunker area.

  5. #1305
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    Countdown to further Russian summer offensive—the artillery, mortar, MLRs shellings and ground attacks have been used to prep the stage for a largescale offensive.

    WHEN the Russians pull together what they have into attack formations it becomes a “use or lose” situation—at some point they must attack or lose their edge and become bored. Now a question of no longer If-- BUT rather WHEN and how large.

    Russian economy is so in tatters right now more sanctions heaped on it will not make much difference at this stage so Putin as a clear window to move now actually the sooner he moves the easier it is then to refocus on the economy.

    Combat Readiness Evaluation (CREVAL) based on US Army equivalent capabilities (C-levels) scale 2010: http://www.apd.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/r220_1/main.asp

    Significant mechanised infantry, tank & artillery units of Russian army are combat ready within reach of Ukraine

    Russian railway transport #H2200 from garrisons & training areas in Central MD to Rostov region well established

    While world focused on expensive watches of Kremlin officials, Russian Ground Forces CMD units reached capabilties (C-levels) C-3 to C-1

    Significant Russian army motor rifle (mechanized infantry), tank, artillery & logistics units of Western & Southern MDs also at C3 to C1

    Russian mechanised warfare specialist Lt-Gen Romanchuk, Dep Cmdr SMD & JCCC rep (Soledar), has successfully restructured DPR/LPR units.

    We do not factor in Russian Airborne Troops (VDV) because they have pre-existing 72-12 hour standby capability exceeding 5,000 servicemen

    Consolidation of command and control structures with Southern MD + C-3/C-2 capabilities of Russian DPR/LPR hybrid units = war readiness.

    Coupled with the large number of OSCE spotting’s and comments that there has been a large reshifting and reorg of Russian troops and her mercenaries and large concentrated troop movements in key critical locations on the eastern front lines—completed over the last week
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-04-2015 at 10:41 AM.

  6. #1306
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Countdown to further Russian summer offensive—the artillery, mortar, MLRs shellings and ground attacks have been used to prep and shape the battlefield for a largescale offensive.

    WHEN the Russians pull together what they have into attack formations it becomes a “use or lose” situation—at some point they must attack or lose their edge and become bored. Now a question of no longer If-- BUT rather WHEN and how large.

    Russian economy is so in tatters right now more sanctions heaped on it will not make much difference at this stage so Putin as a clear window to move now actually the sooner he moves the easier it is then to refocus on the economy.

    Combat Readiness Evaluation (CREVAL) based on US Army equivalent capabilities (C-levels) scale 2010: http://www.apd.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/r220_1/main.asp

    Significant mechanised infantry, tank & artillery units of Russian army are combat ready within reach of Ukraine

    Russian railway transport #H2200 from garrisons & training areas in Central MD to Rostov region well established

    While world focused on expensive watches of Kremlin officials, Russian Ground Forces CMD units reached capabilties (C-levels) C-3 to C-1

    Significant Russian army motor rifle (mechanized infantry), tank, artillery & logistics units of Western & Southern MDs also at C3 to C1

    Russian mechanised warfare specialist Lt-Gen Romanchuk, Dep Cmdr SMD & JCCC rep (Soledar), has successfully restructured DPR/LPR units.

    We do not factor in Russian Airborne Troops (VDV) because they have pre-existing 72-12 hour standby capability exceeding 5,000 servicemen

    Consolidation of command and control structures with Southern MD + C-3/C-2 capabilities of Russian DPR/LPR hybrid units = war readiness.

    Coupled with the large number of OSCE spotting’s and comments that there has been a large reshifting and reorg of Russian troops and her mercenaries and large concentrated troop movements in key critical locations on the eastern front lines—completed over the last week

    Not a good sign---

    Poroshenko urgently convened a War Cabinet http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/4-augus...a-war-cabinet- … pic.twitter.com/7PI4NE9OTp via @tweetsNV

    The Minsk subgroup on safety failed to agree on the text about the withdraw of arms http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/4-augus...ed-to-agree-on … via @KFM936

    NOW can Obama, Nuland, Kerry, and especially Hollande finally admit they were in fact "suckered" by Putin's demand for a "sign of good faith".
    The Russians and her mercenaries were never going to withdraw weapons of 100mm or less AS they never withdrew those of 120mm or more.

    IT was strictly a propaganda move and used to film for Russian TV that they the Russians were the "willing ones" NOT the Ukrainians.

    AND Putin got what he wanted--he literally forced Obama, Kerry, Nuland and Hollande to force the Ukrainians to instigate unilateral appeasement moves with no reciprocal demands on Russia.

    The Ukrainians implemented the draw backs and 30km zones and DMZ AND the Russians just kept on shelling and even attacking inside their own proposed DMZ. THEN the US praises the Ukrainians BUT then yesterday-ZERO results from Russian sides.

    Obama is suckered again by Putin.

    Appears the saying---"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" fits the US and Putin and hurts the Ukraine.

  7. #1307
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    Cossacks Face Reprisals as Rebel Groups Clash in Eastern #Ukraine http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/wo...n-ukraine.html … via @nytimesworld pic.twitter.com/8wzBRxUAhW

    Turchynov: Russia creates conditions for the offensive. Ukraine is working to counter pic.twitter.com/8Jo2dUw6du http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/4-augus...-the-offensive

    In Odesa employee of the EU border mission was killed by unknown - MIA http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/4-augus...ion-was-killed

    "I'm overall alarmed with the [lack of] coverage of Ukraine in the world" You are not alone, PM Yatseniuk. http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/281937.html

  8. #1308
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    Russia attempts to discredit the OSCE-SMM in the Ukraine as they have already restricted much of the areas they use to monitor but now cannot.

    Ukraine InfoMinistry says OSCE was set up when told about presence of "16th brigade from Orenburg" to discredit them
    http://m.nv.ua/ukraine/events/zajavl...iki-62459.html

    Another multi million dollar lawsuit against the Russians---
    Another lawsuit to be filed against Russia in ECHR
    http://www.unian.info/politics/11079...a-in-echr.html … pic.twitter.com/9uNXNshPmY

    Ukrainian Mil Mi-8 evading detection by adversaries / russian radar h/t @bandarenko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jye4...layer_embedded

    VDV general #Shamanov: Airborne Troops of #Russia are ready to help #Syria (if the order is given) http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2164026

    A member of the European Union Border Assistance Mission to Moldova and Ukraine was killed in Odessa https://twitter.com/rianru/status/628530209361383424

    Many heavy #Russia|n howitzers inside #Donetsk City center.
    pic.twitter.com/ce5siw8ppy

  9. #1309
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    Ah…another defacto Russian annexation—this time in the Artic—they had announced this week they had expanded their security zone to 500kms—way way past the international legal norm and way way past the UN stated zones for all five nations involved in the Artic.

    Looks like they are trying to “legalize” their annexation.

    AND the four other nations say not a single word or complain----asleep at the wheel appears to be the Western foreign policy these days in reference to Russian military moves.

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Russia submitted revised application to the #UN seeking expansion of its Arctic shelf border http://goo.gl/4S9SJC pic.twitter.com/CiGettjKUO
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-04-2015 at 04:58 PM. Reason: Copied to the small Artic thread

  10. #1310
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    It has been rather interesting that in fact social media had detected a number of somewhat strange explosions in and around this particular nuclear waste storage site BUT it was with accusations by the Russians of “heavy Ukrainian shellings” in the general area—social media had discounted that the shellings were in fact from the Ukrainian side.

    Max Tucker a well known Russian linguist and solid reporter tends to not fall for “fake” Russian news items and has a some good reporting out of the Russian occupied zone from the beginning.

    Coupled with the still denied monitoring ability of the OSCE-SMM in this specific area.

    Coupled with the total stumbling contridictions made by Russian mercenaries when they first denied there was even a nuclear storage site and then denying they even knew what was in it and then admitting what was in it—WHEN actually all documentation of what was in it disappeared years ago.

    What is equally strange was that the Ukrainian government two weeks ago had formally asked the OSCE-SMM to inspect the site to ensure it had not been breached—WHEN no one has even thinking of this topic.

    http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.co....ovocation.html
    Tuesday, August 4, 2015

    Moscow Mulling ‘Nuclear Provocation’ Against Ukraine, Kyiv Analyst Says

    Paul Goble
    Staunton, August 4 – To overcome the stalemate on the ground and to get itself out of the diplomatic corner it has painted itself into by vetoing the UN Security Council resolution on the Malaysian airliner tribunal, Moscow appears to be planning an act of “nuclear provocation” against Ukraine so as to turn the tables on Kyiv and the West, according to a Ukrainian analyst.

    On Khvylya.net, Sergey Klimovsky argues that Moscow is now in a position where one must “consider seriously” the possibility that Russia will try to organize a small nuclear explosion possibly of a dirty bomb that it would be able to place the blame on Ukraine (hvylya.net/analytics/geopolitics/pochemu-ugrozu-yadernogo-udara-so-storonyi-rossii-po-ukraine-nuzhno-rassmatrivat-serezno.html).

    The Ukrainian military and its supporters have forced the Kremlin from launching a direct invasion this summer, Klimovsky says, and their firmness have led the Russian side to shift from hybrid war to a more normal kind and “to go from attack to active defense.” But that clearly is not sufficient from Moscow’s point of view.

    For any breakthrough to happen, he continues, Russia will need more fighters and more technology, especially since the shift from hybrid to regular war threatens to make it into a world conflict. Technically, Russia is “more or less” prepared for this. But “psychologically, the Russian federation is not ready for such a war,” and so the Kremlin is trying to remedy that.

    Russian military flights over the Baltic and Europe are not only acts designed to intimidate the West, Klimovsky says, they are intended to make Russians accustomed to the idea that “their army can bomb something in Europe and that from this is required the expression of 100 percent approval of the party, government and bombers.”

    That this is what is going on was suggested by Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the Kremlin’s “covert mouthpiece,” in comments on July 31. He called for renaming the Russian Federation the Russian Army, promised to put “half the world on its knees,” and assured Russians that Turks would give them massages and Italians would cook them spaghetti.

    His words were warmly supported by his audience almost to Putinesque levels, Klimovsky says.

    The next day, “The Times” of London carried a story entitled “Ukraine rebels ‘building dirty bomb’ with Russian scientists” (thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4514313.ece). Its source was the Ukrainian intelligence service, and the DNR hastened to respond with a non-denial denial: a bunker with radioactive waste exists there, but no one is working with it.

    That wasn’t enough so then propagandists for the Russian-occupied areas suggested that the US was preparing a nuclear bomb there and planning to use it against the Russians in the Donbas. Such absurdities are the norm in Russia’s info war, Klimovsky says, “but the threat of a nuclear terrorist act on the occupied portion of the Donbas and in Rostov oblast is real.”

    The reason for that is “Churkin’s veto at the UN” on a resolution calling for a tribunal about the Malaysian airliner. Having cast it, Russia in effect “admitted that its forces shot down the passenger jet. If the Russian Federation had not been involved, then it would have supported the creation of the tribunal.”

    Having landed in this position, Klimovsky says, “the Kremlin had to immediately create someone who could be called a greater terrorist than Russia.” A terrorist act in Africa wouldn’t have been enough to end the opprobrium visited on Moscow but an attack supposedly orchestrated by “’the bloody junta from Kyiv” again Russians would be “convincing.”

    “A nuclear strike on the Donbas” would cause people to forget about the tribunal and would be used by Moscow to “justify its annexation of Crimea.” The Russian side would claim that “Kyiv apparently had not given up its nuclear arms” and “therefore Russia had done the right thing by seizing Crimea since Ukraine itself had violated the Budapest agreement.”

    The most probable places where such an incident could be carried out and then blamed on the Ukrainians are Debaltsevo, Shirokino and Gorlovka. The first, where a train brought “an important cargo” on July 30 that required guards, would work because it is near Ukrainian lines and the total population is much smaller because many have left.

    A thousand casualties from such an explosion would be enough for Moscow to begin talking about “a new Hiroshima.” And of course, “the Kremlin would be very happy if the wind would carry the radiation from an explosion further into Ukraine.” It might even arrange to have this happen on August 24, Ukraine’s Independence Day.

    The other two sites would also serve, Shirokino because it would reduce Russian losses in an eventual attack on Mariupol and Gorlovka because a nuclear explosion there could set up a series of chemical explosions. The number of victims all that would cause make it perhaps “the most suitable candidate for Hiroshima-2,” as Russia Today would undoubtedly claim.

    Right now, Klimovsky says, “three things can prevent a [Russian-orchestrated] nuclear terrorist act in Donbas:” the creation of a UN tribunal on the downing of the Malaysian aircraft, the introduction of UN peacekeepers into the Donbas, and the winds which normally at this time of year would carry any radioactive cloud into Russia.

    For the time being, the Khvylya.net commentator concludes, “the winds are the most reliable means.”

  11. #1311
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    Russian shellings resumed earlier than normal today--probably due to the failed talks in Minsk to achieve their own arms withdrawal proposal aimed actually at weakening the Ukrainian Army positions.

    15:13 shelling in the vicinity of the Optyne, the view from the road Horlivka-Donetsk. Via @666_mancer pic.twitter.com/vcW5KXOnqU

  12. #1312
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    Remember cyber warfare is part and parcel of Russian hybrid warefare as is the use of criminal gangs--

    One of Russia's new favored cyber tactics "is to arm crime syndicates w/ sophisticated hacking tools & malware"

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...nd-its-members

    New Twists in Russia's Cyber Campaign Against NATO and Its Members http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...nd-its-members … pic.twitter.com/K5QL3nnhKU

    NATO cyber specialist: "it's pretty brazen really. We are being hit by the Russians more or less every day" http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...nd-its-members

    In Russia's milt doctrine war is never truly declared: instead aggression moves along a sliding scale http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...nd-its-members

    This is what we are currently seeing in the increasing shellings and ground attacks----
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-04-2015 at 05:27 PM.

  13. #1313
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    In Eastern #Ukraine, we have #Ukrainian govt troops v. #Russian govt troops&collaborators. The rest is BS. pic.twitter.com/3mVmjzTdbX

    The Ukrainian army suffers the heaviest casualties since the last days of the battle for Debaltseve.
    53 KIA/WIA between Friday and Monday.



    The Ukrainian Russo war is now in full swing and not even an utterance of any form of a comment from Obama, Nuland, Hollande and or Merkel.

    AT SOME POINT the Ukraine will fight back as it has to in order to just defend itself and it's military personnel--right now they endure most evenings the shellings and ground attacks to "please Nuland and Obama" but that patience is wearing thin.

  14. #1314
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    MI-8 of Ukraine army – awesome Low Pass--AND no this is not a video game--it is reality to avoid radar detection and SAMs.

    Great flying-------


    http://defence-blog.com/?p=7129

    pic.twitter.com/upC6ob59W0

  15. #1315
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    In Eastern #Ukraine, we have #Ukrainian govt troops v. #Russian govt troops&collaborators. The rest is BS. pic.twitter.com/3mVmjzTdbX

    The Ukrainian army suffers the heaviest casualties since the last days of the battle for Debaltseve.
    53 KIA/WIA between Friday and Monday.



    The Ukrainian Russo war is now in full swing and not even an utterance of any form of a comment from Obama, Nuland, Hollande and or Merkel.

    AT SOME POINT the Ukraine will fight back as it has to in order to just defend itself and it's military personnel--right now they endure most evenings the shellings and ground attacks to "please Nuland and Obama" but that patience is wearing thin.
    Ukraine President Chairs War Cabinet Meeting As Frustration With Peace Process Grows http://bit.ly/1MK9rO2 pic.twitter.com/uxQIpO1xzE

    Indicator that this patience is wearing thin--the UA now has the ability to strike back and hurt both Russian troops and her mercenaries AND Russia would be left with either pulling back and or further invading thus increasing the sanctions pressure even more.

    The West especially the US, Germans and the French have harped constantly that there can be no military victory BUT WHAT if they have had it wrong all along??

    WHAT if a military victory is defined as hurting the other side until Putin realizes his loses actually do hurt??

    WHAT if it means bottling up the Russian troops and her mercenaries and allowing no further loss of ther own territory??

    NOTICE--that is already happening now---

    WHAT if "winning militarily means"---bringing the fighting to a stand still and truly forcing a dialogue at the negotiation table.

    To that end the Ukrainians might in fact be able to "win militarily" using a new definition of "winning" the West is unwilling to even think about especially a US President concerned about his "legacy".

    AND Europeans who absolutely have no idea what they want.

  16. #1316
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    AND we are into the evening shellings and ground attacks--and no one in the western mass media seems to really care that there is a full scale war in the middle of Central Europe--a ten hour car drive to Berlin Germany----

    A lot of russian activity (shelling) all along the front lines in #Donbas. The talks in Minsk probably went (or ongoing) very well...

    East #Ukraine Shelling: Government troops say militants are continuing to shell residential areas http://uatoday.tv/society/east-ukrai...as-468822.html

    20:40 #Horlivka Stroitel @ahab7822 A flash in the south from Stroitel

    20:38 #Donetsk Kyivsky ds @TaylerRid Very strong explosion with explosion wave on the ground

    20:39 #Donetsk @14720Maro "Damn, some light blue flashes in the north somewhere between Putilovka & #Makiivka"

    #Donetsk 20:33 On the horizon, beyond the airport, mines dropping
    20:37 Now closer. Even from the window pushed back
    https://twitter.com/idinmor/status/628619795047518208

    20:15 #Dnepropetrovsk @gdalinka A medical aircraft arrived 1/2hr ago, wounded are being delivered [to hospitals]

    #Maryinka 20:00
    Since over 1 hour to hear mortar fire and also something heavier towards traffic police post area https://twitter.com/audrius1977/stat...16545552482304

    20:43 To north #Donetsk-#Makeevka something big shooting https://twitter.com/UkraineSuper1/st...23088004005888

    20:15 #Dzerhzynsk @blessmaster It's getting noisy bit by bit. Single [incoming mortar] bombs and automatic arms sometimes,direction unclear

    Yakovlivka-Mineralne area, Msta-B howitzers, up to 5 units, outgoing from DNR. https://twitter.com/nixer79/status/628619540704964610

    21:01 #Donetsk Kalinovka @funkermanjke AA-gun has worked out in Motel direction

    #Donetsk 20:37
    Hear artillery away, city center https://twitter.com/ludmilka1906/sta...20789210816512

    #Krasnohorivka 20:40
    heavy machine gun, very loud https://twitter.com/666_mancer/statu...25346917724161

    21:06 #Horlivka @xy_gorlov4an Small arms, AGL in the west, not intense

    21:04 #Avdeevka @bamr69 ...hits on the town outskirts

    Mariinka, Dzerzhinsk, Avdeevka all experience war action of varying intensity

    Donetsk, putilovski d-t, smoke reported

    #Verkhnotoretske 20:49
    (Shelling) started with AGS and they gradually increase it https://twitter.com/LeeZernoganja/st...23790398939136

    21:08 #Donetsk @postz5 Approx Gvardeyka direction https://twitter.com/loogunda/status/628627849684066305

    WHAT THE HECK??????
    21:03 #Horlivka @NovaGorlivka Serious battle in Shyroka_Balka, who fights whom is a question, no UKR there


    Maybe between the Cossacks and the Russian mercenaries?????

    Now it stopped----

  17. #1317
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    Skileva (near #Mironivsky) Aug03 shelling aftermath @chernyvaya pic.twitter.com/igDddRvxIw

    Skileva (near #Mironivsky) Aug03 shelling aftermath @chernyvaya pic.twitter.com/igDddRvxIw

    Krasnohorivka 21:10
    LOUD
    Small arms and something heavy too flies https://twitter.com/arthurnkua/statu...29142993563648

    20:48 #Donetsk Putilovka @idinmor Now seemingly AA-gun sometimes fires. Calmed down [in general]

    Nice to see the second half of the group I commanded working in #Marinka. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=KqBtAlSGoLQ … Azov
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-04-2015 at 06:28 PM.

  18. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Ah…another defacto Russian annexation—this time in the Artic—they had announced this week they had expanded their security zone to 500kms—way way past the international legal norm and way way past the UN stated zones for all five nations involved in the Artic.

    Looks like they are trying to “legalize” their annexation.

    AND the four other nations say not a single word or complain----asleep at the wheel appears to be the Western foreign policy these days in reference to Russian military moves.

    MFA Russia ✔ @mfa_russia
    #Russia submitted revised application to the #UN seeking expansion of its Arctic shelf border http://goo.gl/4S9SJC pic.twitter.com/CiGettjKUO
    Russia's Artic claim could expand its territory by 1.2 mn sqkm & give the country ~600 additional oil fields. http://barentsobserver.com/en/arctic...rth-pole-04-08

  19. #1319
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    Another example of just how deep the US, France and Germany are pressuring the Ukraine to commit to unilateral decisions that are very similar to the "Bosnia solution" that Putin is pushing.

    Question is WHY does it appear that Obama, Hollande and Merkel are "selling out the ukraine"?????

    What happen to all their rethoric about "we judge Putin by his Actions NOT his words"???

    http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...2#.VcEFWZX76M8

    Elections in Donetsk-Luhansk ‘People’s Republics’ And Russia’s New Conflict-Freeze Model

    Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 12 Issue: 145

    August 3, 2015 05:17 PM Age: 21 hrs

    By: Vladimir Socor


    (Western governments regularly disagree with the Kremlin over the meaning of democracy and free elections. Nevertheless, Western diplomacy currently supports Moscow’s goal for local elections to be staged in the Russian-controlled territory of Ukraine’s east. If validated as apparently intended by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), such elections would legitimize the pro-Russia authorities in that territory. Holding an electoral mandate, but fronting for Russia, the authorities of Donetsk and Luhansk could then be seated at the table with Ukraine’s central government, to negotiate an “internal” Ukrainian constitutional settlement.

    That would introduce an entirely new paradigm of “conflict freeze” in Europe’s East. For the first time in the 25-year history of those conflicts, Moscow and the main Western chancelleries are urging the aggressed country—Ukraine in this case—to authorize elections in the territory under Russian military and secessionist control, then bargain with the predetermined winners of those elections.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, French President François Hollande, and US Vice President Joseph Biden, among others, have recently pressed this message on Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko in telephone calls (see EDM, July 9, 10, 20, 24, 31).

    Russia has encouraged and instrumentalized numerous “elections” and “referendums” from 1991 to date in secessionist territories (Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Crimea, Donetsk-Luhansk). In all of those cases, however, Russia could never expect Western support for staging such “elections,” let alone international validation of the results. Quite the contrary: Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, as well as Western governments and institutions unanimously dismissed those voting rituals. The OSCE and other standard-setting institutions refused a priori to even observe those elections and referendums. They were deemed, in the first place, to violate the sovereignty of the legitimate states; and second, to lack the legal and democratic prerequisites to organizing such voting. Russia found itself alone validating such elections and referendums, with little or no practical consequences.

    In Donetsk and Luhansk, however, Moscow does not need yet another voting ritual that the West will again ignore. Russia needs Western help to obtain Kyiv’s consent to staging those elections in the first place. If staged, Russia will need Western acceptance of the elections’ outcome and endorsement of the follow-up political steps.

    The current intention is for the Donetsk and Luhansk “people’s republics” (“DPR, LPR”) to hold local elections that would supposedly confer democratic legitimacy on these proto-states. In the second step, based on that electoral mandate (obscuring their primordial mandate from Moscow), the “DPR-LPR” would negotiate a special relationship with the rest of Ukraine, as part of Ukraine’s political and institutional system.

    The Minsk Two armistice (February 2015) stipulates both of those steps. Through this process, Moscow aims to destabilize Ukraine, project Russia’s influence within it, and compel Ukraine to subsidize the pro-Russia local authorities from Ukraine’s state budget.


    Local elections are scheduled to be held throughout Ukraine on October 25. Pro-Russia forces would be guaranteed to win in the occupied territory, if Kyiv authorizes the staging of elections there. For a legal figleaf, elections in that territory would have to be held on the same date as in the rest of Ukraine. Authorizing such elections would also commit Kyiv to accepting the outcome and negotiating with those territory’s representatives on a new basis, much more favorable to them. Russia’s proxies would be recast as holders of a democratic mandate.

    Staging elections in Donetsk-Luhansk would be legally impossible and politically worthless in the absence of Kyiv’s consent. Hence the convergent pressures on Kyiv to grant that consent. The whole point of the proposed elections is to set up negotiations between Kyiv and “duly elected” Donetsk-Luhansk authorities. It was Moscow that initially proposed staging elections in that territory, as part of Russia’s solution to “the Ukrainian crisis.” In recent weeks, however, Putin seems far less vocal, at least publicly. Moscow apparently expects Western diplomacy to encourage those elections more credibly than Moscow ever could.

    The Minsk Two armistice has introduced an entirely new model of Russian conflict management and conflict conservation in Europe’s East. Although it includes some military clauses, the Minsk document—highly unusual for an armistice—is mainly political in content. It aims, first, to legitimize Donetsk-Luhansk as a state-within-the-state (in Ukraine, though not of Ukraine); and second, to create a relationship between Donetsk-Luhansk and Kyiv as between two contracting parties, changing Ukraine’s constitution accordingly.

    Moscow had occasionally toyed with similar ideas in other “frozen-conflict” cases. But it is applying these ideas for the first time in Ukraine now. As such, these are radical innovations in Russia’s praxis of handling the “frozen” conflicts.


    Both of those goals—legalizing a state-within-a-state and qualifying that new entity for a constitutional contract with the existing state—require organizing elections in that territory. A democratic-looking façade also makes it somewhat more palatable for Western diplomacy to cooperate with this aspect of Russia’s solution to the “Ukraine crisis.”

    The OSCE stands ready to assist with the proposed elections. The organization is trying to elicit Kyiv’s consent through the Minsk Contact Group’s working group on political affairs (OSCE, Ukraine, Russia, Donetsk, Luhansk). The group’s most recent meetings in Minsk broke down over this and related issues (Interfax, Belta, July 21, 24, 28).

    This marks Russia’s shift from the old conflict-freeze paradigm, where the secessionists remain outside the aggressed country’s political system, to the new conflict-freeze paradigm, literally injecting the secessionists back into the targeted country’s system in order to destabilize it and project Russia’s influence there.

    This “freeze” model is unprecedented in that it would allow Russia’s protégés to enter Ukraine’s institutional system. This model contrasts with the “classical” frozen-conflict model, which keeps the foreign power’s protégés out of the targeted country’s political system.

    Unable to win a war against Russia militarily, Kyiv would almost certainly go along with the “classical” way of freezing the conflict. That would involve, in a first phase, quarantining the secessionist authorities; immunizing Ukraine from the penetration of Russia’s political influence and organized crime via the “DPR-LPR”; and buying time for Ukraine to conduct its reforms without having to wage a defensive war at the same time. Pressuring Ukraine to enter into a constitutional bargain with Russia’s proxies, however, would mark the successful debut of Russia’s new conflict-freeze paradigm.
    Ah.. the Obama "sell out" of US principles and values in exchange for his "leagcy".

    AND we wonder just why the US is so mistrusted throughout the world ie TPP and TITPP
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-04-2015 at 06:43 PM.

  20. #1320
    Council Member
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    youtube.com/watch?v=Ov_-j9K_te0 … From #Vologda, #Russia, fighting 'fascists' in #Ukraine. Have no idea they are the fascists. pic.twitter.com/J6dEkz00qZ

    Russian-separatist forces upgrade equipment during ceasefire: Ukrainian officer
    http://uatoday.tv/politics/russian-s...er-468929.html … #Ukraine pic.twitter.com/Af606gvlZ4

    20:40 #Krasnohorivka @hyeva_maryinka [vk] Stalino road - Borysivka area: heavy shots, MG, very loud
    [Stalino road http://goo.gl/FldXh2 ]

    21:36 #Horlivka @mihailovith Covered loaded trucks on move. Apparently imaginary [UKR] DRG will start shelling residential areas soon.

    21:42 #Donetsk @AlfaNubovsky Since around 20:30 until 21:00 Kalinovka heard heavy volleys fr/Gvardeyka? direction, now small arms at UAV?

    22:11 #Luhansk @LuhanskJunta RUS seemingly shot UKR UAV down. Not far fr/eastern blocks, fired from East UKR univ direction

    22:07 #Luhansk @Tkachov_TT UAV flew through the city, AA-guns made noise in all city, but didn't shoot down it

    22:05 #Donetsk @HeleneHelene5 [Sounds like] armoured vehicles aremoving along Leninsky tow/Mirny, deep roaring

    22:05 #Luhansk center @BanderaLife Something fireworks-like in the center, tracers towards #Schastya

    21:42 #Staromykhaylivka @hyeva_maryinka [vk] "Oktyabrska St was shelled"

    22:20 #Dzerzhynsk @blessmaster Now we had one incoming/outgoing and AGL

    22:28 #Donetsk Kalinovka @donetsk_ukrop [vk] "Boomed as hell"

    22:26, 22:27, 22:28 #Donetsk @14720Maro Distant salvo, 7 sec, explosion then

    In 3 districts of Donetsk (Kuibyshevskyi, Petrovsky, Kyivskyi) more than 50% of the housing stock has been destroyed
    http://112.ua/obshchestvo/v-treh-ray...ko-249879.html

    22:31 #Donetsk City @donetsk_ukrop Volleys and landing at once

    #Donetsk 22:31
    Incoming at train station https://twitter.com/fhntv29/status/628649404199792640

    22:30 #Donetsk @nyka1968 "It shook the center so much"

    Donetsk 22:27
    "Center - powerful vibration."
    "Opened the window, very loud" https://twitter.com/ludmilka1906/sta...48394836320256

    Donetsk 22:28
    Kalinovka ds - again the chandelier jumps https://twitter.com/GrateHohol/statu...48789973319681

    22:30 #Donetsk @AlfaNubovsky Windows vibrated to the few last volleys. Somewhere [also] mortar rounds and landings heard

    22:32 #Donetsk @14720Maro Again distant volleys

    It seems UA returned fire to positions next to Gvardeyka/Yakovlivka

    Donetsk Kalinovka @GrateHohol "Again ceiling lamp is jumping"

    Donetsk 22:28
    Kalinovka ds - again the chandelier jumps https://twitter.com/GrateHohol/statu...48789973319681

    22:36 @vladicvp Volleys from #Horlivka - Krasniy_Partyzan area. Landiings in #Donetsk-Gladkovka. 40sec betw shots by flashes,10sec by sound

    #Donetsk 22:32
    Kyivsky district listening to strong breaks https://twitter.com/062_Region/statu...49660027015168

    22:37 #Donetsk @Ykraino4_ka Loud incoming

    22:26 #Donetsk @nixer79 Shelling fr/Spartak, fly over Putilovka-Scheglovka, lands at Pastukhovka

    22:36 @vladicvp Volleys from #Horlivka - Krasniy_Partyzan area. Landiings in #Donetsk-Gladkovka. 40sec betw shots by flashes,10sec by sound
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 08-04-2015 at 07:44 PM.

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