Understanding Indian Insurgencies

[Ray]

Well one can say that about any country, the US notwithstanding.

Seek and ye shall find.

Is corruption any less in the US or the law and order issues not there or is there not human rights abuses.

UPDATE 3-Thirteen charged in US microcap kickback cases
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7B00YV20111201

Guantanamo?

One has to see the police videos of the US police in action to believe it.

The manner in which your police operates, it can't be done in India or Pakistan or even in Bangladesh.

Such highhandedness and the police will get thrashed.

I am sorry the human rights violations cannot 'go through'. We have the Right to Information Act and what you see happening in India is because it is being used extensively and the people are getting empowered and demanding to know the truth!

[Bill Moore]

Posted by Ray,

One has to see the police videos of the US police in action to believe it.

The manner in which your police operates, it can't be done in India or Pakistan or even in Bangladesh.

Such highhandedness and the police will get thrashed.

I admit that some of our cops act inappropriately sometimes during an arrest (excessive force), but that is due to poor training, poor selection, and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest. The key is that this behavior isn't accepted as norm, but based on the excessive media coverage you would think that is the case. We don't have thousands of people die our prisons due to torture.

It is also important to point out that we publicize the violations and then take corrective action against those who violated the rules.

We don't have extralegal uprisings and insurgencies in our nation due to abuses, because our system addresses the abuses. Quite a difference.

[Ray]

Posted by Ray,




I admit that some of our cops act inappropriately sometimes during an arrest (excessive force), but that is due to poor training, poor selection, and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest. The key is that this behavior isn't accepted as norm, but based on the excessive media coverage you would think that is the case. We don't have thousands of people die our prisons due to torture.

It is also important to point out that we publicize the violations and then take corrective action against those who violated the rules.

We don't have extralegal uprisings and insurgencies in our nation due to abuses, because our system addresses the abuses. Quite a difference.

We also publicise our wrongs and take corrective actions and that is why we have no hang up over foreign media personnel going to areas where there is insurgency, knowing fully well what they will report in a sensational manner.

BBC is anti India, but they are very much in Kashmir and elsewhere. In Pakistan, they are banned!

In the case of errors with the police and others, it is the same reasons out in India - poor training, poor selection and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest, as it is in the US.

What is good for the US as reasons is good for reasons in India.

You don't have uprisings since you are not a country that has any ethnic right or majority over any part of the country, to include historical claims.

India is a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi lingual, multi religion country that is not yet developed as the US. Where there is imbalance in development, there will be strife.

Observe the EU. There are not a nation and yet they are in total disarray, each country having different ethnicity is up in arms to defend their own turf. Have a religious divide as soon it is forecast there will, if the alarming reports of the demography changing is believed and you will have the same situation as we have in India.

Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!

Therefore, what India has achieved is commendable.

We have stayed the democratic course and not opted for a military option in governance as is the fashion in the neighbourhood!

Pakistan has insurgencies, because even though they have a common religion, they have diverse ethnicity!

Bangladesh does not have this problem because they have a common religion and ethnicity.

Therefore, there are many reasons for having insurgency and it need not be merely due to bad governance or human rights abuses! No ethnic group or religious group in a diverse mix of factors in a country likes to play the second fiddle!

We are fortunate that India has not crushed insurgencies like what they did in Sri Lanka!

Democratic norms still exist in India. Not perfect, but still worth its while!

[davidbfpo]

Ray,

For a mix of reasons India is in my "good books" and does give one hope that everyone can peacefully share the growing economic "cake".

I don't find the BBC's limited reporting on India is spiteful, for many years I enjoyed Mark Tully's reporting on a land of contrasts.

Amidst your post was this, which caught my Anglo-centric eye:

Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!

Politicians when facing a democratic, free electorate will always be accused of 'pandering', even 'appeasement' although that remains a bad word here.

The five days in August 2012 when we saw limited, high profile urban rioting in England only was a shock to many and politically has all the appearance of having been forgotten already. This link may explain much of the why and how:http://www.5daysinaugust.co.uk/

The BNP, an extreme nationalist party, is not 'growing in strength'. Yes it did get a significant vote in the last European elections, in two northern English seats, IIRC 400k votes. Since then the leadership has fractionated, it's finances are a mess and subject to a police and EU investigation. Dip into this partial, but respected watcher:http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/

The UK has a long history of rioting and one of my best reads is 'Police & Protest in England & Ireland 1780-1850' by Stanley Palmer, an eight hundred page tome. Quite often English rioting was religious in origin for example the Priestley rioting in Birmingham:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestley_Riots

Before 1914 agitation and militancy by the newly capable trade union movement and other political factors brought the country to a near revolutionary time. Yes there was IIRC a Chinese factor, a myth that Chines labourers would arrive and work in the coal mines.

Yes we are a small country and with a growing population - eighty million by 2056 and so could become the sixth most crowded country in the world. For a very partial glimpse:http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/

Struggling? Yes. Not on your described scale though Ray. The wartime slogan 'Keep Calm and Carry On' remains valid.

[Bill Moore]

posted by Ray,

India is a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi lingual, multi religion country that is not yet developed as the US. Where there is imbalance in development, there will be strife.

Observe the EU. There are not a nation and yet they are in total disarray, each country having different ethnicity is up in arms to defend their own turf. Have a religious divide as soon it is forecast there will, if the alarming reports of the demography changing is believed and you will have the same situation as we have in India.

Already in the UK, they are in the same position as India, pandering to the vote bank i.e. appeasement. What are the riots all about in Britain? Why is the BNP slowly growing in strength? Britain never had riots till it became multi ethnic and multi religion country. And Britain is a postage stamp compared to India and having a much less population and diversity! And yet they are struggling!

Therefore, what India has achieved is commendable.

We have stayed the democratic course and not opted for a military option in governance as is the fashion in the neighbourhood!

Pakistan has insurgencies, because even though they have a common religion, they have diverse ethnicity!

Bangladesh does not have this problem because they have a common religion and ethnicity.

Therefore, there are many reasons for having insurgency and it need not be merely due to bad governance or human rights abuses! No ethnic group or religious group in a diverse mix of factors in a country likes to play the second fiddle!

We are fortunate that India has not crushed insurgencies like what they did in Sri Lanka!

Democratic norms still exist in India. Not perfect, but still worth its while!

Ray, I agree with most of what you wrote, and as I wrote earlier it is a miracle that India had progressed as far as it has (and should continue to progress) based on the challenges you listed. You can also add as a challenge your neighbors, but perhaps that would be impolite.

A couple of points I disagree with is your comment on the EU. They are having a lively political debate, but they are not up in an arms. Any debate and protest done legally is not an insurgency, but normal and healthy politics.
Where the EU goes in the future is anyone's guess, and some have suggested this the beginning of a return to the old Europe which had a long history of war between their states. I don't think so, but then again who really knows.

Bangladesh has made a lot of headway, but I think HUJI-B and JMB can still be considered insurgents. As you know ethnic divisions are not the only reason for insurgencies, although ethnic groups remain one of the easier groups to mobilize based on identity.

As for the media being misleading, that has always been true, but at the same time simply dismissing reports as inaccurate, especially when they're serious allegations isn't helpful. The Human Rights Violations study was not put together by BBC.

[Ray]

posted by Ray,




Ray, I agree with most of what you wrote, and as I wrote earlier it is a miracle that India had progressed as far as it has (and should continue to progress) based on the challenges you listed. You can also add as a challenge your neighbors, but perhaps that would be impolite.

A couple of points I disagree with is your comment on the EU. They are having a lively political debate, but they are not up in an arms. Any debate and protest done legally is not an insurgency, but normal and healthy politics.

Where the EU goes in the future is anyone's guess, and some have suggested this the beginning of a return to the old Europe which had a long history of war between their states. I don't think so, but then again who really knows.

Up in arms maybe overdoing it like the media!

I was only going by the chaos going on and each nation blaming the other.

Iain Duncan Smith has called for a referendum on any change in the Treaty.

There is talk about eurozone crisis resulting in its breakup.

True, it is not an insurgency, but it nonetheless is chaos generating that can lead to instability and who knows what lies ahead in the long term scenario.

Thoughts such as The bigger truth is that years of neoliberalism and deregulation have left us with a weak economy. We are stronger than Mediterranean states, which used the euro as an excuse to relax and splurge. But we are a lot weaker than Germany, which invested properly in training and technology, whose banking system stuck with manufacturing, and whose people continued to save for rainy days rather than borrow and gamble. If Germany is calling the shots it's because Germany has earned the right to lecture the rest. does not give confidence that all will be well in the future.

Bangladesh has made a lot of headway, but I think HUJI-B and JMB can still be considered insurgents. As you know ethnic divisions are not the only reason for insurgencies, although ethnic groups remain one of the easier groups to mobilize based on identity.

Ethnic diversity in large countries, apart from economic disadvantages, does play a major role in giving rise to insurgencies. That has been the experience in Asia and Africa.

As for the media being misleading, that has always been true, but at the same time simply dismissing reports as inaccurate, especially when they're serious allegations isn't helpful. The Human Rights Violations study was not put together by BBC.

I don't think I have suggested that reports should be dismissed. They have to be taken cognisance of and the wheat must be sifted from the chaff by the authorities.

As far as the Human Rights body, they have their own agenda and desperate to be relevant as Pollyannas.

The Times accuses HRW of filling its staff with former radical political activists including Joe Stork and Sarah Leah Whitson, writing, "theoretically an organization like HRW would not select as its researchers people who are so evidently on one side.

HRW has been accused of bias in gathering evidence because it is said to be "credulous of civilian witnesses in places like Gaza and Afghanistan" but "sceptical of anyone in a uniform."
HRW

Claims have been made regarding alleged HRW bias with regards to Haiti, Venezuela and Honduras. Robert Naiman, policy director of Just Foreign Policy, has claimed that HRW is "often heavily influenced" by United States government policy.

I am sure we will not hear of the repression of the Shias in Bahrain from the HRW!
Link

[Ray]

Ray,

For a mix of reasons India is in my "good books" and does give one hope that everyone can peacefully share the growing economic "cake".

That is not really feasible with the present infrastructure and the Govt must take a fair share of the blame.

The remote areas are not well connected and the terrain is inhospitable. Then there is this policy of not disturbing the indigenous culture, customs and traditions of the tribal and hill folks.

To a great extent, the rise of the Maoist can be attributed to industry and mining taking place in these tribal and thus virgin areas and disturbing the lifestyle of the tribal people.

Indeed, there are so many contradictions that has to be balanced that the whole issue of development is lopsided.

I don't find the BBC's limited reporting on India is spiteful, for many years I enjoyed Mark Tully's reporting on a land of contrasts.

Mark Tully is more Indian than British!

He lives in India and goes on holidays to the UK. He speaks the language and dresses in the most casual dresses of rural India! Of course, not in a loin cloth! He is too British to do that and he called the 'half naked fakir of India', as Mahatma Gandhi was called by Churchill.

I could tell you much about the manner of BBC reporting in Kashmir. But I will give it a go by.

Amidst your post was this, which caught my Anglo-centric eye:

Politicians when facing a democratic, free electorate will always be accused of 'pandering', even 'appeasement' although that remains a bad word here.

The five days in August 2012 when we saw limited, high profile urban rioting in England only was a shock to many and politically has all the appearance of having been forgotten already. This link may explain much of the why and how:http://www.5daysinaugust.co.uk/

It is not merely the latest riot.

Trace the history of riots (racial) in the UK.

All took place when the UK became politically correct and immigrants came in droves.

The BNP, an extreme nationalist party, is not 'growing in strength'. Yes it did get a significant vote in the last European elections, in two northern English seats, IIRC 400k votes. Since then the leadership has fractionated, it's finances are a mess and subject to a police and EU investigation. Dip into this partial, but respected watcher:http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/

I am not surprised that BNP is increasing its clout.

If one find one's native culture and custom is being swamped, the reaction of the original native population of Britain will naturally be upset leading to closing of ranks. It is quite natural.

For instance, anyone would be absolutely horrified if all traffic is brought to a halt because some people have to read the namaz on the road because there is no space in the Mosque.

I don't find the British anger odd when they find that their girls are sexually assaulted, while those assaulting cloister their girls from the 'evil' natives of the land! It has been reported in the media to include youtube.

Jack Straw, the ex Foreign Secretary was not far from the truth when he gave what some felt was a Politically Incorrect statement. And Jack Straw was once dubbed as 'Ayotollah Straw' since he was very pro Minority.

Or the outburst of that woman on the tram (widely shown on Youtube).

The UK has a long history of rioting and one of my best reads is 'Police & Protest in England & Ireland 1780-1850' by Stanley Palmer, an eight hundred page tome. Quite often English rioting was religious in origin for example the Priestley rioting in Birmingham:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestley_Riots

Before 1914 agitation and militancy by the newly capable trade union movement and other political factors brought the country to a near revolutionary time. Yes there was IIRC a Chinese factor, a myth that Chines labourers would arrive and work in the coal mines.

These riotings are for economic reasons and not racial as such.

Now, it is racial and demanding their 'rights' (religious and otherwise) and superseding the local customs, traditions and way of life.

Yes we are a small country and with a growing population - eighty million by 2056 and so could become the sixth most crowded country in the world. For a very partial glimpse:http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/

Struggling? Yes. Not on your described scale though Ray. The wartime slogan 'Keep Calm and Carry On' remains valid.

Struggling? Yes. What I meant is that there is a serious search of identity because it is being swamped by a whole lot of immigrants, not only from Asia, Africa, but also Europe.

[Ray]

On media manipulation

How To Manipulate The Media & Get Free Publicity With Creative Marketing Ideas
http://www.jimkukral.com/how-to-mani...rketing-ideas/

Weapons of Mass Disinformation

http://www.oilempire.us/media.html

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."
-- Mark Twain