Understanding Indian Insurgencies

[blueblood]

Any evidence that environmental/human rights groups are being funded by Western powers with the aim of stopping Indian progress? It seems pretty farfetched to me, and the US certainly has no reason to want to stop India - or for that matter China - from making economic progress.

The environmental and human rights issues exist, and people are involved in them for a wide variety of reasons. I happen to live in a tribal area with rich mineral deposits, and the community I live in would be obliterated if "progress" got round to digging us up, so I'm not at all averse to seeing folks local and foreign throwing kinks into that particular type of "progress"... looking at what's happened elsewhere, the degree of progress involved is quite debatable.

This is how it works in India. The likes of Medha Patkar, a renowned social activist reaches out to the people who are supposed to be affected by the building of a dam or a power plant. She stages protests, meanwhile encouraging people to build as much as they can on the said land. I've seen people creating three story buildings within two weeks of government declaring the project.

The project gets delayed for the jibber-jabber of the compensation meanwhile the country or the institution that financed the project enjoys a hefty interest. It doesn't exactly takes a rocket scientist to figure out who is hitting the jack pot here.

For the naxalites, it a different game, they are against the government because it neglected them. So, now when the government is trying to make up for it, they will blow up railway lines, kill government officials and school teachers and again claim that government is doing nothing to help the tribals.

If the tribals do get educated, their will be no innocent village folk to revere the didi (older sister) or dada (older brother), as the naxals project themselves to be.

[Ray]

Crackdown on anti-national NGOs
28 Sep 2011, 0937 hrs IST
It's a shocking case of anti-national outfits posing as NGOs across the country. TIMES NOW has accessed intelligence documents listing over a hundred NGOs, which are not only violating rules but funding terrorists.
http://www.timesnow.tv/Crackdown-on-...ow/4385125.cms

Foreign Funding for
NGOs Under Review
A huge advertisement in the leading national daily 'Indian Express', Friday, accused famous NBA leader Medha Patkar of sustaining her campaign with the help of foreign money received through illegal channels.

Role of the Church and Insurgency
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0508/105.html

It is not for me to judge.

The Home Ministry has now declared that all NGOs will have to declare the source of their funds if they come from abroad.

[Dayuhan]

The project gets delayed for the jibber-jabber of the compensation meanwhile the country or the institution that financed the project enjoys a hefty interest. It doesn't exactly takes a rocket scientist to figure out who is hitting the jack pot here.

It was suggested above that foreign governments are funding these movements to obstruct India's development. here it seems to be suggested that foreign financing organizations are underhandedly paying to obstruct the same projects they finance in able to gain higher interest payments. That all sounds, honestly, very conspiratorial and very improbable. I have no doubt that these movements get funding from overseas, but it's most likely simply form individuals and groups that support their agenda. It's not hard to get funding support from environmental/social movements in the west for opposition to a dam or a mine.

I'm personally glad that's the case... as stated above, I live in a place where tribal people have had to constantly resist, by means up to and including insurgency, efforts to displace them to make way for dams, mines, and logging. Those efforts have succeeded, with foreign support helping. After all, if it's reasonable for the government to seek foreign financing to build a dam, surely it's equally reasonable for the people who will be displaced to seek foreign support in their efforts to resist the project.

If the tribals do get educated, their will be no innocent village folk to revere the didi (older sister) or dada (older brother), as the naxals project themselves to be.

If experience in my area is anything to judge by, educating the tribal people will make resistance to externally imposed "development" more vigorous and more aggressive.

Support for the NPA (New People's Army, local equivalent of the Naxals) has steadily degraded in my area since the government stopped pushing projects that would displace communities and effectively destroy the local way of life. Today the NPA in this area is a marginal presence and no significant threat. If people fight back when you push them around, you might try not pushing them around.

[Ray]

Agreed that India maybe paranoid.

NGOs a Cover for Spying in Russia

U.S., British and other foreign nongovermental organizations are providing cover for professional spies in Russia, while Western organizations are bankrolling plans to stage peaceful revolutions in Belarus and other former Soviet republics bordering Russia, Federal Security Service director Nikolai Patrushev told the State Duma on Thursday.

Patrushev said the FSB has monitored and exposed intelligence gathering activities carried out by the U.S. Peace Corps, the British-based Merlin medical relief charity, Kuwait's Society of Social Reforms and the Saudi Red Crescent Society.

He said foreign secret services rely on NGOs to collect information and promote the interests of their countries.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...ext=va&aid=139

Kazakhstan: What is Behind the Peace Corps Pullout?
http://kazworld.info/?p=17976

On Nov. 5, 2007, Fulbright scholar John Alexander van Schaick arrived at the U.S. Embassy for what was to be a routine orientation meeting before beginning his year-long research project. But he was taken aback when, during his one-on-one security briefing, he says security officer Cooper asked him provide information to the embassy on Cubans and Venezuelans he comes across during his field work. The incident matches accounts by Peace Corps volunteers and staff that on July 29, 2007, Cooper instructed 30 new volunteers to do the same, with respect to Cuban nationals.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?...1#.TtIB0fLex2A

Peace Corps was a good tool for espionage, like it or not.

Only a country that does not know their onions will spend millions and not use all tools to ensure that the country targeted does not become pro that country. No country would subscribe to the adage - A Fool and His Money is Soon Parted, for that country would indeed be a Fool!

The use of espionage dates back well into ancient history. The Hebrew Bible describes the Hebrews' use of espionage in the Book of Joshua with the story of Rahab, a prostitute who harbored two Hebrew spies. Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs and papyri describe the existence of court spies. Spies were also prevalent in the Greek and Roman empires. In Asia, the importance of deception and subversion were discussed by Chinese military tactician Sun Tzu around 500 B.C.E. in his famous work The Art of War. Two hundred years later, the prime minister of India wrote the Arthashastra, a treatise on government well known for its discussion of the use of espionage. Ninjas were often employed as mercenary spies in feudal Japan, and were known for their skill at infiltrating the enemy. In Europe during the Middle Ages, espionage played a large role in both The Crusades and the Inquisition. During the Renaissance, the political philosopher Niccolo Machiavelli strongly advocated the use of espionage by the ruling class. Elizabethan England was known for the effectiveness of its espionage system, which employed linguists, scholars, and scientists.[1]

From the eighteenth century onwards, espionage gained even more importance. Industrialization, colonialism, and complicated world politics all fueled the quest for information. Informants during the French Revolution were used to track down traitors for trial and execution. Colonial governments used espionage to quell uprisings.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Espionage

Sources may be neutral, friendly, or hostile, and may or may not be witting of their involvement in the collection of information. "Witting" is a term of intelligence art that indicates that one is not only aware of a fact or piece of information, but also aware of its connection to intelligence activities. Examples of HUMINT sources include, but are not limited to, the following:

Advisors or foreign internal defense (FID) personnel working with host nation (HN) forces or populations
Diplomatic reporting by accredited diplomats (e.g., military attachés);
Espionage clandestine reporting, access agents, couriers, cutouts;
Military attachés
Non-governmental organizations (NGOs);
Prisoners of war (POWs) or detainees;
Refugees;
Routine patrolling (military police, patrols, etc.)
Special reconnaissance
Traveler debriefing (e.g., CIA Domestic Contact Service)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_i...28espionage%29

Also
http://insider-magazine.org/ChristianMafia.htm

http://www.marxists.org/subject/afri...alism/ch01.htm

It would be naive to believe that in international politics and oneupmanship all is above board and ethical!

If all were hunky dory, ethical and morally above board, then second or third generation Muslims would not go berserk and bomb the country of their birth under the guidance of the country of their parents and grandparents origin!

While one may not take these at face value, yet there is no smoke without fire.

and no one is Jesus, either.

[Dayuhan]

I'm not sure how any of the above relates to the matter under discussion, but...

Global Research is a known fringe nut-job conspiracy site, and its credibility is something less than zero.

I'm not in a position to know why the Peace Corps pulled out of Kazakhstan, but a fast and complete pullout is usually a result of a real or suspected threat to volunteer safety.

The Peace Corps is actually a pretty useless tool for espionage. Volunteers and staff are typically well to the left side of the political spectrum, quite allergic to anything even vaguely resembling military or intelligence involvement, and are likely to howl to the media at the first hint of an approach... as that complete ass in Bolivia who tried an approach discovered to his chagrin. It would certainly be possible to insert an agent without the knowledge of the staff of other volunteers, but as anyone who's been a volunteer or has been close to the organization knows, it wouldn't be a very useful cover.

It would be silly to deny that espionage takes place, but it's equally silly to attribute all one sees to espionage, especially when far more likely explanations are at hand.

[jmm99]

Ray:

The Peace Corps was somewhat "submerged" between 1971-1981; but its independence was assured by this fighting lady - who died far too young so far as her family and friends were concerned. Her daughter Adele is presently with DoS.

Regards

Mike

[Ray]

JMM,

I posted links of what is felt around the parts.

Personally, I know many Peace Corps workers did real good work.

In fact, IIRC when I quoted the Ugly American, I did say that organisations like the Peace Corps did some yeoman's work to change the perception about the US.

It is known that ideal organisations where one can park human resources intelligence assets are organisations which appear benign and work unhindered with the people and can travel without raising suspicion. NGOs, religious organisations, news agencies etc are known to be areas where agents are parked, apart from other organisations.

[Dayuhan]

I posted links of what is felt around the parts.

If you're dealing with local perception, then yes, every PCV, missionary, NGO Worker etc is a CIA agent. When I was in the Peace Corps (many many years ago) it was simply taken for granted that we had something to do with the CIA. Of course it didn't make sense, but people believed it anyway: people believe all kinds of stuff.

It is known that ideal organisations where one can park human resources intelligence assets are organisations which appear benign and work unhindered with the people and can travel without raising suspicion. NGOs, religious organisations, news agencies etc are known to be areas where agents are parked, apart from other organisations.

Anyone actually familiar with the way the Peace Corps works (and the way the CIA works) will see immediately that PCV cover would be far from ideal - in fact close to useless - for an intelligence operation. Of course that reality will not affect perceptions at all.

[blueblood]

If experience in my area is anything to judge by, educating the tribal people will make resistance to externally imposed "development" more vigorous and more aggressive.

Support for the NPA (New People's Army, local equivalent of the Naxals) has steadily degraded in my area since the government stopped pushing projects that would displace communities and effectively destroy the local way of life. Today the NPA in this area is a marginal presence and no significant threat. If people fight back when you push them around, you might try not pushing them around.

This is where you are wrong. The current government has consistently bent over backwards for minority, tribal and lower caste votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India

If you are a tribal, you can study in the best educational institutions for almost free (last I remember, it was nearly $50 for the tribal and lower castes for two semesters in the state eng. colleges). In urban India, things like caste do not exist and this is the thing Naxals fear the most.

[Dayuhan]

This is where you are wrong. The current government has consistently bent over backwards for minority, tribal and lower caste votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India

If you are a tribal, you can study in the best educational institutions for almost free (last I remember, it was nearly $50 for the tribal and lower castes for two semesters in the state eng. colleges). In urban India, things like caste do not exist and this is the thing Naxals fear the most.

Missing the point, I think. Once tribal people are educated, to they become more receptive to externally imposed "development" - meaning dams, mines, logging, etc - or less?

I ask because I live in one of the best educated truly "tribal" areas in the world... and people here go crazy militant at the first mention of a dam or a mine. I suspect that while education might weaken a movement like the Naxalites, it's likely to dramatically strengthen the kind of protest that Medha Patkar is known for.

[blueblood]

Missing the point, I think. Once tribal people are educated, to they become more receptive to externally imposed "development" - meaning dams, mines, logging, etc - or less?

I ask because I live in one of the best educated truly "tribal" areas in the world... and people here go crazy militant at the first mention of a dam or a mine. I suspect that while education might weaken a movement like the Naxalites, it's likely to dramatically strengthen the kind of protest that Medha Patkar is known for.

Alright, no dams and no mines. What about power plants, cotton mills and steel plants? How do you plan to employ them? If your answer is a agriculture then it's a wrong one. Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal.

Education and urbanization will not only weaken this movement, it will kill the ideology. As I said, no such thing as caste and creed exists in urban India. It's a bane and it exists in rural and backward parts of this nation.

The likes of Medha Patkar are here to stay and they will stay for an unknown period. In the land of Gandhi, she is breaking no rules by protesting peacefully.

[Ray]

Just to keep the records straight, even the Indian army when combating terrorists do not use artillery, armour or air force.

It is obvious that the paramilitary follows the same and what is more they don't have these.

It is mere journalistic sensationalism to give the impression that they are 'in the know' and wish to show that they understand the military better than the readers.

In fact, in the COIN areas, artillery, armour, RCL guns, MMGs, 81mm Mortars etc are all mothballed!

[Ken White]

In fact, in the COIN areas, artillery, armour, RCL guns, MMGs, 81mm Mortars etc are all mothballed!

That is very wise.

Tools available will always be used where they should not be unless troops are truly superbly trained -- an expensive and thus understandably rare case in any Army.

If some standard tools aren't available, then better thinking and tactics are necessary -- and will generally appear...

[Dayuhan]

Alright, no dams and no mines. What about power plants, cotton mills and steel plants? How do you plan to employ them? If your answer is a agriculture then it's a wrong one. Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal.

I agree that "Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal". Education may not necessarily lead to docile acceptance of whatever the faraway bureaucrats decide is the right way, though... and people will fight the government if they believe, accurately or not, that government is a threat to them and their way of life.

I don't think "you" should plan to employ "them". That sort of paternalistic thinking is rarely effective. I'd say provide education and infrastructure and let them sort it out. They might surprise you.

Just to keep the records straight, even the Indian army when combating terrorists do not use artillery, armour or air force.

Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?