Understanding Indian Insurgencies

[Dayuhan]

Alright, no dams and no mines. What about power plants, cotton mills and steel plants? How do you plan to employ them? If your answer is a agriculture then it's a wrong one. Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal.

I agree that "Killing of school teachers and blowing up railways is not exactly a right path to the empowerment of tribal". Education may not necessarily lead to docile acceptance of whatever the faraway bureaucrats decide is the right way, though... and people will fight the government if they believe, accurately or not, that government is a threat to them and their way of life.

I don't think "you" should plan to employ "them". That sort of paternalistic thinking is rarely effective. I'd say provide education and infrastructure and let them sort it out. They might surprise you.

Just to keep the records straight, even the Indian army when combating terrorists do not use artillery, armour or air force.

Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

[Ray]

Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

I don't think so.

It has been the practice ever since the start of insurgency in India, immediately after Independence.

Our police is inept.

It is only the Army that is organised to take on insurgencies.

[Backwards Observer]

Our police is inept.

It is only the Army that is organised to take on insurgencies.

Ray, are the mass graves recently unearthed in Kashmir an example of police ineptness, or is there a more pedestrian explanation? What's your take on this?

Unmarked graves give up their shameful secrets

Every village has stories of men and boys taken from their homes and never seen again, writes Ben Doherty in northern Kashmir.

The police bring the bodies. In the day or night they bring them, wrapped loosely in blankets or in the clothes they wore.

''The bodies come in very bad condition,'' Nizar Ahmed Mir tells the Herald through an interpreter, standing on the steep slopes of the Shaheed cemetery at the end of a narrow dirt road.

''They are bloody, some are in handcuffs, the clothing is torn. Most have been shot in the face, or the face has been damaged, so they cannot be identified. We don't know who they are, we are just told to bury them.''

Unmarked graves give up their shameful secret - Sydney Morning Herald - Nov 12, 2011.

[Backwards Observer]

Actually, Ray, never mind. I just read the comments section of the Foreign Policy Article, What Lies Beneath: Kashmir's Mass Graves Come To Light (Sept 29, 2011). I'm going to go ahead and guess this is somewhat of an emotionally charged issue. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need a drink.

Secondly,yes we support the government and the army in the actions taken in JK,whole heatedly.They get what they deserve.If you pretend amnesia when it comes to kashmiri pandits, then to hell with the thugs marauding as "freedom fighters".

Thirdly,please spare the Indians this psychobabble of bad governance,atrocities and duplicity.An American calling ANYONE by these names is akin to a whore cussing the virgin mary.
Last but not the least quit poking your nose where it doesnt belong.Get a life or whatever is left of it.
Last time i checked you had screwed korea,vietnam,Iraq and now afghanistan and you have the audacity to lecture the Indians,specially after what you have done to the Native Americans??..huh.. [commenter at FP]

[Ray]

Backward Observer,

The fact that foreigners and foreign correspondents are allowed to freely move without restrictions in Kashmir should indicate that there is nothing to hide.

It maybe mentioned the same freedom to foreigners or foreign media personnel is not allowed in Pakistan's Northern Areas and there is much to write about.

That apart, many military personnel have been convicted and dismissed from service when human rights cases have been heard and proved in the Courts.

Sensational journalism cannot be curbed since India is a democratic country.

Have we not been fed with gruesome stories of human rights abuses in USSR and China in the media repeatedly and more so, through the pages of a respected and hailed magazine called the Readers Digest? I grew up on those stories.

How come China has suddenly become a place where such gruesome stories no longer surface?

The media is a great tool to 'mould' public opinion.

Remember Murdoch?

He was the paragon of virtues, right?

He only gave the truth, right?

He is the tip of the iceberg.

BTW, why was Al Jazeerah bombed during the Iraq War? I am sure it is not too difficult to guess or is it?

The article is typical of sensational news that appeals. Mention some human angle stuff, a few names and spin away.

Anyone can sit with a computer and write an article on Guantanmo, Wei Wei or any other 'hot' stuff and make it very convincing.

Because that would ruin the heart wrenching prose of his story.

How come he has failed to mention the number of military and paramilitary personnel including officers who have been jailed?

And who controls the media?

India?

Hope you enjoyed your tot of whatever you drank!

[Ray]

Do show me a news story in the western media that is equally heart wrenching on the Kashmiri pandits (Hindus) who have been hounded out of Kashmir in a process launched with ethnic cleansing in mind?

Do show me a story which is equally heart wrenching where the Kashmir Police arrested and hounded a Christian padre for converting Muslims.

No, that would not suit the flavour of the month!

[Ray]

Do also show me heart wrenching stories of atrocities committed by Hosni Mubarak during the era when Mubarak was the President.

or of the atrocities committed by the Bahrain Sultan on the majority Shia population when they rose in rebellion and the US assistance given to the Sultan.

Obviously, there will be very few and that would be discarded as left liberal rubbish.

Never forget, media is an important tool to push foreign policy!

[Backwards Observer]

How come China has suddenly become a place where such gruesome stories no longer surface?

I dunno, dead men tell no tales?

Ray, India just got crowned prom queen of Asia; the judges even renamed the region the 'Indo-Pacific' to make you feel extra-special. To show your appreciation for the uranium deal, you fired off the Agni IV, 'China Killer', quite a witty move, in my pointless opinion. I don't think the West is going to be pushing you too hard on anything, you're the world's largest democracy! Relax and enjoy!

Now, if you'll excuse me, it's morning here in the antipodes, I need a drink.

[Ray]

I dunno, dead men tell no tales?

Ray, India just got crowned prom queen of Asia; the judges even renamed the region the 'Indo-Pacific' to make you feel extra-special. To show your appreciation for the uranium deal, you fired off the Agni IV, 'China Killer', quite a witty move, in my pointless opinion. I don't think the West is going to be pushing you too hard on anything, you're the world's largest democracy! Relax and enjoy!

Now, if you'll excuse me, it's morning here in the antipodes, I need a drink.

Semantics does not really matter.

Indo Pacific is possibly a derivative from the Oceans of the region that matter for the US. I wonder if it is India centric. But then India does worry some people!

Uranium deal is no great shakes either.

Agni IV is what is known as an instrument for a balance of power. If China did not have it, where is the requirement for such a waste of money? Now, tell us who does China fear to have their own Agni? It is after all a Peace loving country!! Or so they claim and tomtom on the rooftops and hector others to save the money for their poor and hungry! China, of course, has no poverty and they are all millionaires! The ideal nation in the world from where the rich Chinese are emigrating!

Not to worry about the world largest democracy. One has to observe the Most Peaceful Rise of Chin, where it claims the complete Pacific, so to say, and then uses muscle power till Uncle Sam joins the show and wonders at the Peaceful Rise and the reach of the real prom Queen and toast of the Century!

Well, you seem to enjoy being in the cups!

[Bill Moore]

Backwards Observer, I don't disagree with your observations, India is frequently called, "a democracy of the few, for the few." India is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, especially considering its status as an emerging superpower. In my opinion this level of corruption equates to a nation where the rule of law is near non-existent, which makes human rights violations the easier to get away with. The violations are not limited to Kashmir, and this is one of the reasons there are and have been so many insurgencies. Of course with a population of close to a billion, and a nation with 13 separate languages, and numerous religious groups with extremists in each that are intolerant of one another, plus a history of discrimination (the untouchables and other castes), the fact that India is emerging as a superpower is somewhat of a miracle.

http://www.achrweb.org/

Torture in India 2011 which is only online states that a total of 14,231 persons i.e. more than four persons per day died in police and judicial custody in India from 2001 to 2010. This includes 1,504 deaths in police custody and 12,727 deaths in judicial custody during the year 2001-2002 to February 2010. A large majority of these deaths are a direct consequence of torture in custody. But these no way reflect the extent of torture in India. These deaths as reported to the NHRC reflect only a fraction of the menace of torture and custodial deaths in India.

Since 2010, at least 12 RTI activists have been murdered for seeking information to “promote transparency and accountability in the working of every public authority” of India. Ms. Shehla Masood, a prominent woman RTI activist of Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh was murdered on 16 August 2011. She joined the growing list of RTI activists who have been murdered

The good news is many Indians are taking action against the rampant corruption, and we can hope this will result in a nation ruled by law, which in turn will better protect human rights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16003576

The scale of corruption in modern India is astounding. The size of bribes and kickbacks is enormous, the stories of corruption astonishing, and the audacity of corruption's big players ever more apparent. India has become a great power, but it has done so without washing away the canker of corruption.

There's something refreshing about this upsurge of anti-corruption activity - and also something disturbing. As some left-wing critics are now pointing out, there's a danger that anti-corruption activists will throw the baby out with the bath water. Youth where I work in Uttar Pradesh point out that you can criticise politicians as much as you like, but at least they have been elected. Indeed, many are now seeing the Anna movement something of a corporate conspiracy.

Things are not any better in Pakistan or Bangladesh, so as we all know this is a region of the world that has immense challenges to over come.

[Ray]

Well one can say that about any country, the US notwithstanding.

Seek and ye shall find.

Is corruption any less in the US or the law and order issues not there or is there not human rights abuses.

UPDATE 3-Thirteen charged in US microcap kickback cases
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7B00YV20111201

Guantanamo?

One has to see the police videos of the US police in action to believe it.

The manner in which your police operates, it can't be done in India or Pakistan or even in Bangladesh.

Such highhandedness and the police will get thrashed.

I am sorry the human rights violations cannot 'go through'. We have the Right to Information Act and what you see happening in India is because it is being used extensively and the people are getting empowered and demanding to know the truth!

[Bill Moore]

Posted by Ray,

One has to see the police videos of the US police in action to believe it.

The manner in which your police operates, it can't be done in India or Pakistan or even in Bangladesh.

Such highhandedness and the police will get thrashed.

I admit that some of our cops act inappropriately sometimes during an arrest (excessive force), but that is due to poor training, poor selection, and factors related to adrenalin during the arrest. The key is that this behavior isn't accepted as norm, but based on the excessive media coverage you would think that is the case. We don't have thousands of people die our prisons due to torture.

It is also important to point out that we publicize the violations and then take corrective action against those who violated the rules.

We don't have extralegal uprisings and insurgencies in our nation due to abuses, because our system addresses the abuses. Quite a difference.

[Ray]

On media manipulation

How To Manipulate The Media & Get Free Publicity With Creative Marketing Ideas
http://www.jimkukral.com/how-to-mani...rketing-ideas/

Weapons of Mass Disinformation

http://www.oilempire.us/media.html

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."
-- Mark Twain

[blueblood]

I don't think "you" should plan to employ "them". That sort of paternalistic thinking is rarely effective. I'd say provide education and infrastructure and let them sort it out. They might surprise you.

There is a saying in Urdu, "khali dimaag shaitan ka ghar" which means when a man has nothing good to do, he'll do something evil. If you don't employ them this is what you'll get. Many Kashmiris who were throwing rocks last year are now employed by both government and small private industries. Next time these guys will be more worried about completing their targets next day than throwing stones.

Do you think this would change if the insurgents were stronger, better organized, better armed, and in general more of a threat? Are any of the Indian insurgencies really perceived as a threat to the state, or are they more peripheral matters of a level that can be handled by police work?

I am surprised, if you don't consider LET, HUJI etc to be organised then who are? Most of the early fighters were the same that Soviets fought in Astan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyas_Kashmiri

Just for example.

[Ray]

LeT and HUJI and the others are not only well organised, well financed and well equipped, but they are govt and Army to include ISI sponsored and trained!

[Bill Moore]

Posted by Ken,

That is very wise.

Tools available will always be used where they should not be unless troops are truly superbly trained -- an expensive and thus understandably rare case in any Army.

If some standard tools aren't available, then better thinking and tactics are necessary -- and will generally appear...

Interesting observation, and perhaps this is one reason we fail to adapt in some cases? I don't want to imply we don't adapt, because we have and do, but we may not be adapting appropriately for IW if we continue to rely "mainly" on superior fire power (intead of strategy).

Posted by Ray,

LeT and HUJI and the others are not only well organised, well financed and well equipped, but they are govt and Army to include ISI sponsored and trained!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read and understand that India had up to 20 different insurgencies/separatist movements, etc., and that approximately 13 are active now, and the greatest threat to India is the Naxolite insurgency (Maoists). While the Muslim terrorist groups conduct deep attacks throughout India, the Muslim insurgency proper is largely restricted to Kashmir. What did I get wrong?

[Ray]

Ray,


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read and understand that India had up to 20 different insurgencies/separatist movements, etc., and that approximately 13 are active now, and the greatest threat to India is the Naxolite insurgency (Maoists). While the Muslim terrorist groups conduct deep attacks throughout India, the Muslim insurgency proper is largely restricted to Kashmir. What did I get wrong?

The insurgencies that keep India occupied is the Pakistan based terrorists who operate in Kashmir and the Maoists.

The others are dormant and some exist merely on paper.

Apart from the foreign sponsored terrorists in Kashmir, there is also the terrorist attacks in hinterland India, again organised and sponsored by Pakistan, and some of them are mounted with Indian operatives who, unfortunately are Muslims.

It has been established that China is financing and equipping the Maoists.

Maybe that is the reason why the Govt of India has suddenly taken a very strong line towards China and that has made China quite uncomfortable as they feel it India is being encouraged by the US.

[Bill Moore]

posted by Ray,

It has been established that China is financing and equipping the Maoists.

I have always been curious about this possibility, and while the Chinese are no longer Maoists in the true sense, supporting Maoists (especially in India) would appear to be in their interests if they could do it and not get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. It has been a while, but I think I posted about it on SWJ a few years back; the Maoists in India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have a regional organization and used to meet annually. Suspect it was more political in nature than a war room type meeting, yet it is still interesting to see how these interests intermingle across borders in various ways.

If you can post some links on China's links to the Maoists it would be helpful, but understand if that isn't available.

[Ray]

This maybe interesting too

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-b...goryId=-168061

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-b...goryId=-168061

[Bill Moore]

Ray,

Time to update this article, since it talks about a former Bangladeshi government.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/0204201...ling-analysis/

Insurgency in many of the states of the northeastern region has finally demonstrated signs of abatement. For decades outfits thrived with their external linkages and internal support. Most of these outfits, like many insurgency movements in the world, remained personality centric. As a result, once Bangladesh started cooperating and handing over the insurgent leaders who were based in the country to India, much of the insurgencies operating in Assam and Meghalaya ran out of steam. It is Bangladesh’s cooperation, which is behind the initiation of peace talks between a faction of the ULFA and the Government of India. Bangladesh also recently handed over the Chief of United National Liberation Front (UNLF), one of the most violent groups in Manipur, to India. Prior to this, police-led operations in Tripura had neutralized the insurgency movement in Tripura. In addition, there are a host of outfits including the Naga outfits, which are under ceasefire mode and some of them are currently negotiating with the government. A conflict transformation process is underway in the volatile northeast.

A lot more in the article...