Better than M4, but you can’t have it

[Norfolk]

Because contrary to popular belief not all bullets go bang. Especially when you work for a law enforcement agency that has you dutifully unload your street loads, and then use training ammunition that is much cheaper. So you might be carrying rounds that have been on your hip for decades. In the weather, oiled, and horribly mistreated. I see all the hackles on military guys necks rising, and the LE trainers going "now wait a second" yeah it sucks, yeah it is wrong, and yet it still happens enough to be an issue. Then there is the training ammunition hand loaded using the cheapest materials on the planet.

Clearance procedures changed almost monthly the last time I was training. I was caught in the era of bigger/better/more as we transitioned from wheels to slides. Our first method of clearing was to hit the back of the slide (big mistake). Then rack the round out after a cooling period. Following that advice I saw a round cook off on extraction which is a bad day. Then they had us start dropping the magazine as we saw double feeds. Finally with my weapon (P85 Ruger) it was "click, slap, rack" when you hit nothing it was slap the back of the slide, (fire or click) then rack it back and load another (fire or click). Squibs and torn cartridges were do not fire again situations and transition to shotgun.

Any fuzziness on technique can be blamed on a decade and half of distance between now and then.

Is there some sort of standards and disciplinary authority to oversee and enforce the proper training and certification of LE trainers, formulation of TTP's, and the proper use and care of ammo? Or is each agency/department more or less on its own, Selil?

[selil]

Is there some sort of standards and disciplinary authority to oversee and enforce the proper training and certification of LE trainers, formulation of TTP's, and the proper use and care of ammo? Or is each agency/department more or less on its own, Selil?

I want to make sure EVERYBODY understands I am in no way saying I'm currently an expert. In the original post I tried to make sure I said this is 15 years old and how I was trained.

If you really want to change my mind invite me to your training sometime.

Sgt R, and Cpl. M I'm sure had some standards to follow but I distinctly remember them pulling our magazines and inserting "dud" ammunition when we transitioned from wheels to slides for the "tire house" or "Hogans Alley" type training. Don't know if it makes any difference but this was not during the marksmanship courses of fire.

I'm still not sure what the exact problem in simulating/forcing a malfunction during a real course of fire is for combat training? I "googled" the terms to see what others are doing and even the Army is using dummy cartridges in a belt of live ammunition for machine guns to simulate something called a gas stoppage.

Like I've told my sons standing in the local sportsman club shooting in lanes is not combat shooting. IPSC and better IDPA are better venues but unfortunately more competition than training for civilians.

There appears to be a Washington State firearms training organization now WSLEFIA.COM, but I'm not sure if they're a community or standards body.

[Ken White]

Is there some sort of standards and disciplinary authority to oversee and enforce the proper training and certification of LE trainers, formulation of TTP's, and the proper use and care of ammo? Or is each agency/department more or less on its own, Selil?

States and departments. The basic answer is that most States in the US have adopted standards, mostly based on those of the FBI and generally enshrined in the statutes. Many Departments have even tougher standards than the State requires.

A lot of the professional magazines -- the true item, not the news stand variety -- have lengthy discussions and interchanges on standards and techniques.

Selil is right on training versus duty Ammo -- though many departments are moving into not using handloads or even lower quality training ammo and are thus getting a forced rotation of stock. Most also rigidly define what ammo is acceptable as a duty load. Some are designed for maximum stopping power; others for lowest possible incidental damage (mostly depending on how many lawsuits the Department has had filed over shootings).

[jcustis]

It's actually a common practice among non-military trainers to advocate mixing live and "dummy" (or snap cap) ammunition to simulate failures to fire and failures to feed at random times, to train in instinctive reaction with the appropriate clearance drill.

I've had it done to me on in a combat pistol course, and have used the technique as well. Having said that, I would not do the same on a range involving a rifle...just because.