America Says Let's Win War

[J Wolfsberger]

tequila,

I've read the poll a couple of times, and can't identify a push sequence. What series of questions are you refering to?

[tequila]

And, which one of the following would do most to hurt America's reputation as a world power... To pull our troops out of Iraq immediately ...or... To leave our troops in Iraq for as long as it takes to restore order?

Frames the question to choose between removing troops and restoring order. The question assumes that leaving troops automatically leads to the restoration of order. It would be just as easy to ask: "Withdraw our troops in an orderly fashion ... or ... Leave our troops in Iraq to try and stop the civil war between Sunni and Shiite Iraqis?"

While I don’t agree that the US should be in the war, our troops should stay there and do whatever it takes to restore order until the Iraqis can govern and provide security to their country.

Again, same assumption that troops staying = restoring order. A pro-withdrawal push poll could ask, "While I don't agree with precipitous withdrawal, our troops should not act as a police force and referee a civil war."

I support finishing the job in Iraq, that is, keeping the troops there until the Iraqi government can maintain control and provide security for its people.

Same assumption, with added note that the respondent is asked whether or not they are in favor of "finishing the job" --- the words are set up for positive association. Who's against finishing a job? Alternate question: "I support what the majority of Iraqis favor: an orderly withdrawal that results in American troops leaving Iraq within the year."

Victory in Iraq, that is creating a young but stable democracy and reducing the threat of terrorism at home, is no longer possible for the US.

Conflates two totally disassociated concepts - that creating democracy in Iraq will lead to reducing the threat of terrorism at home in the U.S.

I don’t really care about what happens in Iraq after the US leaves, I just want the troops brought home.

Leads the respondent towards the idea that those who want troops pulled out don't care what happens in Iraq afterwards. Could just as easily be worded to lead the other way: "I want the troops brought home, but I believe that the U.S. should try to help the Iraqis achieve a stable government and economy with nonmilitary means."

[J Wolfsberger]

I went back and reread the poll in light of your comments. I don't see anything in it suggestive of a push poll. It seems to accurately and comprehensively cover the range of attitudes/goals/prescriptions currently in front of the public. I do agree that the alternative questions would have been "pushing" opinion. But they weren't the ones the poll used.

[John T. Fishel]

John--

I fully agree with your analysis of the poll questions. Well said.

John

[tequila]

Needless to say, I totally disagree. You did not address any of my points, other than to note that you feel the poll's questions are completely fair.

edit: Also I wonder how you account for the extraordinary difference between what this poll purports to show compared to the numerous other polls conducted around this issue that are linked in this thread. Also compared to the recent election results which saw the President's party lose its Congressional majority.

[Stan]

Evening John and John !

I have to strongly agree with Tequila, the poll is too obvious.

This is unfortunately Psyops and CA at government levels, et al. The answers are in the questions (in this case the way they were presented).

Frames the question to choose between removing troops and restoring order. The question assumes that leaving troops automatically leads to the restoration of order. It would be just as easy to ask: "Withdraw our troops in an orderly fashion ...

Where do you hope to go from there ? There is no 'where' to go. The question contains its own answer and again unfortunately, most won't see it. That would be the reason for it in the first place. Or not ?

Conflates two totally disassociated concepts - that creating democracy in Iraq will lead to reducing the threat of terrorism at home in the U.S.

Tequila is dead on, not less. This is (I'm sorry) too easy. How does this Delta Hotel conclude this ? It's supposed to be a question.

Sorry folks, I see it for what it is.

Delta ! Forgot this one:
[QUOTE]I wonder how you account for the extraordinary difference between what this poll purports to show compared to the numerous other polls conducted around this issue[QUOTE]
I would like to know that as well. It just doesn't jive !

[J Wolfsberger]

We may all wind up agreeing to disagree on this one. Taking the easy part first, the extraordinary discrepency is probably due to the fact that people are extraordinarily complex. No one feels any great need to be consistent. I suspect a lot of people are responding with an attitude of: yeah, the war sucks, wish we weren't there, now lets roll up our sleeves and get the unplesent chore done.

As to the questions, my read is that the poll adopted the language of the different parties to present the choices. As an example, and whether we agree or not, one side is calling for "immediate" withdrawal, and the other proposes staying until we restore order.

My point is that using the language chosen by the various policy advocates to present their position can not be termed push polling. Neither can framing a question in semantically neutral terms: "Restore order" is semantically neutral, since it only requires agreement that there is disorder in Iraq, and requires no agreement on its composition, causes, etc. "... stop the civil war between Sunni and Shiite Iraqis" is not neutral, because it imposes assumptions about the nature of the disorder.

[120mm]

Needless to say, I totally disagree. You did not address any of my points, other than to note that you feel the poll's questions are completely fair.

edit: Also I wonder how you account for the extraordinary difference between what this poll purports to show compared to the numerous other polls conducted around this issue that are linked in this thread. Also compared to the recent election results which saw the President's party lose its Congressional majority.

Tequila, I'd like maybe an example of what kinds of questions the "neutral" polls ask. I would guess that they were "neutral" in the sense that they collected by a "neutral" press or a "neutral" poller like Zogby.

In other words, polling "concepts" is fine. When a leftist newspaperman does it, it's tilted to the left. When a rightist political type does it, it's tilted to the right. To claim that only one side is neutral, or one side is tilted would be dishonest or innocent.

BTW, anyone who thinks that the President's party lost the last election because the Dems were strong is a fool. The Reps were fired because they betrayed their base politically at home, and didn't have success in Iraq, not because they started Iraq.

[tequila]

The polls I linked earlier also have their questions available for discussion. Note that Zogby works for Republicans as well. More to the point, do you believe that all the pollsters are leftists?

The Reps were fired because they betrayed their base politically at home, and didn't have success in Iraq, not because they started Iraq.

No one said that the Reps lost Congress because they started Iraq. I implied that the public is severely dissatisfied with the Rep path on Iraq, as you apparently agree, which largely consists of staying in Iraq until "the job is done".