Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 156

Thread: Suicide Attacks: weapon of the future?

  1. #61
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    I think there might be some translation problems to.

  2. #62
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    278

    Default

    No translation problems. I understand you just fine. I find one response to sarcastic and condescending so I responded my way. If some one takes offence of my words or sound of it, I do apologize. I will keep it to myself in future.


  3. #63
    Council Member TROUFION's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default Dr. Brym counters Dr. Pape's conclusions

    Dr. Brym and his team examine the 2nd intifada, 138 attacks. His findings are summarized in this article. He points out that this is specific to Palestine-Isreal and may not apply to Iraq etc.

    Here is an excerpt:

    "By examining statements made by bombers, their families or representatives from organizations they claimed to be working for, the authors found that attacks were not generally governed by a strategic logic, as is often believed to be the case, but were motivated by a desire for revenge. By examining events that preceded each specific attack, they found that particular Israeli actions such as killings prompted most attacks. "For the most part," they write, bombers "gave up their lives to avenge the killing of a close relative, as retribution for specific attacks against the Palestinian people or as payback for perceived attacks against Islam."

    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-dsb061206.php

    Further, the following Wikipedia Link, has a LOT of information that is relevant to this discussion. It mirrors very closely how this thread has unfolded.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombing

    And last here is today's news:

    By SAMEER N. YACOUB, Associated Press Writer
    16 minutes ago

    BAGHDAD - A suicide car bomb struck Baghdad's Shiite militia stronghold Saturday, killing at least 18 people as international envoys met in the Iraqi capital to talk about stabilizing the violence-shattered country.

    The blast hit an Iraqi patrol in Sadr City at midday, scattering burning debris across a small bridge, witnesses said.

    An Associated Press reporter traveling with U.S. troops nearby said the explosion showered shrapnel across a joint U.S.- Iraq security station 300 yards away. The partially shattered windshield of a car landed at the gates of the compound.

    Police said at least 18 people were killed and 48 wounded.

    Question: What did this bomber-terrorist achieve?

  4. #64
    Council Member TROUFION's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default Suicide blast kills 32 Shiites.--effective or not?

    THe question at hand is this effective as a weapon, tactic, strategy? Can the insurgents achieve the desired endstate through this campaign? Will the Shiites (particularly Sadr's militia types) be able to restrain themselves from retaliation? (guess that is a seperate issue-responses to suicide instigation attacks, when the attacker WANTS you to overreact)----

    Suicide blast kills 32 Shiites in Iraq By LAUREN FRAYER, Associated Press Writer
    11 minutes ago

    A suicide car bomber rammed a truck carrying Shiite pilgrims returning from a religious commemoration Sunday, killing at least 32 people a day after Iraqi leaders warned sectarian violence could spread through the Middle East.

    Hundreds of pilgrims were killed by suspected Sunni insurgents as they traveled to the ceremonies in the holy city of Karbala, where millions had gathered for two days of commemorations, and their return journey was equally treacherous.

    The truck was bringing about 70 men and boys home and had reached central Baghdad when it was blasted by the car bomber. At least 32 people were killed and 24 were injured, police and hospital officials said.

    Attacks on other vehicles carrying pilgrims Sunday killed at least five people in Baghdad.

    One of those in the truck, Mustafa Moussawi, a 31-year-old vegetable store owner, said they group felt safe after crossing from Sunni-dominated areas.

    "Then the car bomber slammed us from behind," said Moussawi, who suffered injuries to his right hand and shoulder. "I blame the government. They didn't provide a safe

    route for us even though they knew we were targets for attack."

    Iraqi security officials have struggled to protect the annual pilgrimage to mark the end of 40 days mourning for the 7th century battlefield death of the Prophet Muhammad's grandson. Shiites consider him the rightful heir of Islam's leadership, which cemented the rift with Sunni Muslims.

    In what appeared to be an attack on the other side of Iraq's sectarian divide, in the northern city of Mosul, a suicide bomber attacked the offices of Iraq's biggest Sunni political party, killing three guards. The attack on the Iraqi Islamic Party's office came as politicians were leaving a reception, said party member Mohammed Shakir al-Ghanam.

    Mosul, about 225 miles northwest of Baghdad, also has seen an increase in suspected Sunni insurgent attacks, including a reported raid on a prison last week that allowed nearly 150 prisoners to escape. Most were quickly recaptured.

    The attacks on the Shiite pilgrims — including a bomb-rigged car and a suicide bomber with an explosives belt packed with metal fragments that together killed five in Baghdad — followed a suicide car bombing Saturday in Baghdad's main Shiite militia stronghold, Sadr City. The blast at a checkpoint killed 20 people, including at least six Iraqi soldiers.

    But it carried additional worries for U.S.-led forces, who entered Sadr City last week under a carefully negotiated deal with political allies of the Madhi Army militia, led by the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

    He has agreed to withhold his armed militia from the streets during a U.S.-Iraqi security crackdown begun last month. But attacks on his power base could encourage al-Sadr to send his fighters back to protect Shiites if U.S.-Iraqi forces cannot.

    They could also rekindle the sectarian revenge killings that have receded since the Baghdad security push began nearly four weeks ago.

    Iraq's prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, appealed Saturday for international aid to fight the bloodshed, speaking at a gathering of neighbors and world powers, which included rare diplomatic exchanges between the United States and Iran.

    He told delegates that Iraq's strife could spill across the Middle East if not quelled. It resumed even as the delegates packed up the briefcases and dossiers.

    Separately, the U.S. military said that American and Iraqi troops had captured three suspected members of a bomb-making cell north of Baghdad.

    The men were detained during an air assault Saturday in Tarmiyah, the military said in a statement. The suspects were accused of planting roadside bombs and car bombs in attacks on American and Iraqi troops, it said.

    The military also announced the capture of a suspected financier of insurgents in Kirkuk province, who was taken into custody last Wednesday.

    Also Sunday, a roadside bomb killed two women in a car in Mahmoudiyah, 20 miles south of Baghdad, police said.

  5. #65
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    I'm glad Sarajevo keeps up with it. Disparate views are good for the forum, I think. My comment about money and suicide bombing stem from my own period of doubt whether I could feed my family after my brain injury. At about the same time the Army upped the SGLI to $400,000 and I would be lying to say that I did not evaluate what I could do to see that my family was fed and cared for in terms of that $400,000.

    Back to suicide bombing, I think Troufian's main point of his first post is the main point. What did the suicide bomber achieve?

    A useful spin-off might be to ask, what did the suicide bomber "war-game" in his mind that led him to choose suicide bombing as a tactic/mode of expending his life.

    I have a hard time accepting the "heavenly rewards" as the prime motive. I am familiar with "berzerker's rage" and think it might play a part. I am open and interested in suggestions/criticisms on anything else.

  6. #66
    Council Member TROUFION's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    212

    Default inept bombers, not the same as a JDAM or LGB

    One would think it would get harder to find appropriate bomb carriers with results like these. Seems that the idea to use suicide bombers in a more tactical mode isn't nearly as 'effective' (when body counts are the goal) as pure terrorist attacks on soft targets. --Troufion

    By Mirwais Afghan
    2 hours, 35 minutes ago

    KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Three Taliban suicide bombers killed themselves along with a policeman and an Afghan civilian and wounded a dozen people in separate attacks in southern Afghanistan on Tuesday, officials said.

    The Taliban have stepped up operations in their old heartland ahead of an anticipated spring offensive against government and Western forces. A Taliban spokesman claimed responsibility for all the three attacks.

    In Spin Boldak, a town on the Pakistani border, a suicide bomber blew himself up at a police checkpost, killing a policeman and a bystander.

    "The man entered from the Pakistani side and blew himself up as police tried to search him," Abdul Razzaq, chief of the border security force in the area, told Reuters.

    He said eight people were wounded in the attack.

    There were two suicide attacks in Lashkar Gah, capital of the southern province of Helmand. In both cases the bombers killed themselves but no one else.

    One attacker targeted a NATO convoy, but only wounded two Afghan bystanders, according to the deputy police chief of Helmand, Mohammad Isa Iftikhari.

    In the other attack, on an Afghan army office in the provincial capital, a soldier was wounded.

  7. #67
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    I'm just finishing up "Islam and the West" by Bernard Lewis. I notice toward the end of the book, he mentions the tradition of martyrdom in Arab pre-Islamic history, where the hero commits Regicide and dies valiantly in the end. I'm wondering how much the folklore of "martyrdom works into this "tactic."

    And I'm also wondering why it has been absent in Afghanistan culture (if it has) until now. Thoughts?

  8. #68
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,665

    Default

    Maybe because Pashtun culture is very different from Arab culture?

    This ECONOMIST article has some basic errors but covers a lot of excellent ground about the clash in the NWFP between Islamism and Pashtun tribal culture.

  9. #69
    Council Member marct's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I'm just finishing up "Islam and the West" by Bernard Lewis. I notice toward the end of the book, he mentions the tradition of martyrdom in Arab pre-Islamic history, where the hero commits Regicide and dies valiantly in the end. I'm wondering how much the folklore of "martyrdom works into this "tactic."

    And I'm also wondering why it has been absent in Afghanistan culture (if it has) until now. Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by tequila View Post
    Maybe because Pashtun culture is very different from Arab culture?
    I think Tequila has it. Pretty much every culture has a place for martyrdom (aka "altruistic suicide"), and it's really a matter of in just what specific situations it should be used. In most mountainous raiding cultures, "martyrdom" is really more a last resort than a standard tactic - it tends to indicate a more general failure than anything else.

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  10. #70
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default What if the Bomber is Actually a Victim?

    120mm, I have been thinking about this for awhile and I would tend to agree with you that the 72 virgins is not the real motive. I do think that many radical Islamic leaders would like the US to believe that thousands of bombers are out there waiting to attack on command for Propaganda reasons but I am not sure that is really happening.

    So what if you went the other way? What if the bomber is also a victim being exploited by radical clerics,etc. In my LE career I ran into a fair number of suicidal types who are in such despair that they do not mind taking their own life or whoever happens to be around them when it happens!

    How hard would it be to find someone in Iraq who lost one or several loved ones, does not have a job, does not have a home? How many would have had all of these happen to them? Probably a fair number. The Secret Service has done some fantastic research in this area and they have some documents at their website that are open source. They also have a LE restricted website that has their main manual for LE Threat Investigations which covers several of the questions you bring up.

    If you can get access to it I highly recommend it and I am personally familiar with it. I have also done these types of investigations in the Domestic Violence/Stalking situations and there are allot of similarities.

    I sparked enough interest with this that at a 2006 AUM (Auburn University Montgomery) seminar about my own experiences with it that US Army Intelligence showed up besides a bunch of Feds,State and local LE.

    Here is the link to the Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center go to the down load section for open source material, any of the School Shooting Information is also applicable with some modification. A targeted attack is no different then an attack on a public official according to their theories which I believe very Strongly. One they don't believe in profiling. Two they do belive that attacks can be predicted with in certain peramiters.
    I have had personal communications with some of the agents that were authors of these studies so it is some good stuff , so take a look if you have time.
    http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac.shtml

  11. #71
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    I will read those articles today, but I also have a thought: (Of course, I go to what I know) I wonder if terrain plays a role in the development of social mores in committing sanctioned violence.

    A resident of Southern Iraq, or Saudi Arabia, could not fight a numerically superior force in the open and expect to survive it. Most of the terrain doesn't support "going to ground" in those conditions. In Afghanistan, Pakistan and other countries similar to that, it would be fairly simple for a small group to attack a larger group, and then E&E once the larger group was able to get their fingers out and get after them.

    Therefore, wouldn't military tradition develop differently in either one of those cultures? Would a military culture that developed in open terrain have a stronger culture of suicide attacks, while a closed terrain culture develop "hit and run" tactics? (Japan would be an exception to this, at a minimum; perhaps a highly populated, small island would not support "getting away"?) I'm also thinking allowed on how "climate pressure" affects military competence, but it is an imperfect framework.
    Last edited by 120mm; 03-14-2007 at 04:23 AM.

  12. #72
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,665

    Default

    I think that some of this military determinism goes too far. Victor Davis Hanson, for one, really stretches it badly and leads historical/cultural analyses down roads it cannot go. As you noted, these are imperfect frameworks --- in this case highly imperfect. For instance the prevalence of raiding in pre-Islamic Arabia among bedouin tribes is well established --- hardly an example of suicidal warfare. Desert areas are places were large armies cannot support themselves and often have no real reason to go.

    Historically Islam is a religion of the cities and of the literate. The bedouin tribes were among the last to be converted in Arabia and the first to bolt when Muhammad died. There really is no example of suicidal warfare or cults of martyrdom in the Middle Eastern or Islamic tradition excepting certain marginal Shia elements and maybe the Kharijite example --- it appears to be a purely modern phenomena. The Japanese example can be traced to continental Asian influences --- for instance disgraced officials and generals in Han China were expected to commit suicide to avoid judicial punishments. Yet China and Korea have no tradition of suicidal warfare.

    I think we often reach too far in our attempts to find a cultural explanation for modern phenomena. Many times this is simply groups learning through media exposure and adapting methods that work. Cultural or religious justifications are usually found afterwards. The cult of suicide bombing is one of these, IMO.

  13. #73
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    120mm, When you read the articles you will find your ideas are not as imperfect as you think. In the Secret Service model they would fall under environmental factors and they can have a lot of influence on the situation.
    Also as you read you will find out a key predictor is they often do not have an escape plan!! They are in such pain they intend to die right there and take as many with them as they can. The old saying misery loves company is at work here.

    tequila, I would agree with your analysis of suicide cults(which is a good description) they exploit the cultural factor after the attack when nobody can argue with them.

  14. #74
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    278

    Default

    My praises and thanks to tequila for great response and knowledge! I always enjoy reading his postings.

    Military situation or knowledge have nothing to do with suicide attacks since there is not one real examples of ME armies doing this in wars.

    But they are not cults but they are extreme examples of religious devotion. If they were cult/s they would not be so widely understood (but not widely accepted) in Muslim society.

    And money or education still don’t have much to do with it since you can find poor and rich, uneducated and highly educated jihadis. No one going to do that so his family can get rich.

    Simple… It’s revenge, desperation, lack of better weapons, religious “duty” and PSYOPS.

  15. #75
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Sarajevo, The Secret Service model will validate everything you say! That was one of the things they found out during their research and the reason they believe there is no such thing as a bomber "profile" that can be used. it boils down to a person in a desparate situation who believes he has no other option and nothing left to loose. Yes it is simple it is not rocket science.

  16. #76
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    1,284

    Default

    Hmmm. All good to think about, but I stubbornly stick to some of the cultural bases for various tactics.

    In the US, we have the "cult of the rifleman." All good 'murricans are supposed to be born with a rifle in their hands, and when the rifle doesn't work anymore, even in situations when they know that surrendering means they get their heads sawed off on TV, they give up.

    There is also the "no man is left behind" meme. A wounded soldier, behind enemy lines, will lead US military folks to sacrifice many more soldiers, just to get him/her back.

    I just don't buy that martyrdom is a modern invention. It predates Islam, for goodness sakes, if one believes Bernard Lewis.

  17. #77
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,665

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Hmmm. All good to think about, but I stubbornly stick to some of the cultural bases for various tactics.

    In the US, we have the "cult of the rifleman." All good 'murricans are supposed to be born with a rifle in their hands, and when the rifle doesn't work anymore, even in situations when they know that surrendering means they get their heads sawed off on TV, they give up.

    There is also the "no man is left behind" meme. A wounded soldier, behind enemy lines, will lead US military folks to sacrifice many more soldiers, just to get him/her back.

    I just don't buy that martyrdom is a modern invention. It predates Islam, for goodness sakes, if one believes Bernard Lewis.
    I have a tough time with your historical analysis. An American cultural "way of war" shows that the U.S. adapted many cultural forms of warfare throughout its history. The pre-Revolutionary period up to the Civil War saw Americans engaging in frontier style battles emphasizing light infantry and open order fighting that also had major influences on the British Army. The Civil War saw a total abandonment of this in favor of the massive fire-power based army that would see the U.S. through all its major wars up through OIF I.

    Assessing a proposed dominant role of martyrdom in Arab military tradition would require historical examples of such. I have a tough time finding any significant ones before the modern era. Most cultures glorify warrior heroes who die in combat rather than surrender --- see 300 for a Western example, or the Alamo for an American one (no surrender there!). Any society with any warrior tradition will tend to have this cultural ideal somewhere.

  18. #78
    Council Member marct's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I just don't buy that martyrdom is a modern invention. It predates Islam, for goodness sakes, if one believes Bernard Lewis.
    Maybe we should drop the term "martyrdom" since it has too many religious connotations, and use he term "altruistic suicide" instead. In this case, "altruism" is culturally defined and rationalized rather than an absolute. In this case, the "no man left behind" meme is a variant of altruistic suicide (already identified as such in the sociobiology literature).

    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Hmmm. All good to think about, but I stubbornly stick to some of the cultural bases for various tactics.

    In the US, we have the "cult of the rifleman." All good 'murricans are supposed to be born with a rifle in their hands, and when the rifle doesn't work anymore, even in situations when they know that surrendering means they get their heads sawed off on TV, they give up.
    I would agree that there are cultural biases or pre-dispositions to certain types of tactics. Anyone who has studied pre-industrial warfare shuld realize this. However, the situation changes, slightly, with the shift to a post-industrial economic base. Consider, by way of examle, the role played by an economic base, actually a "mode of production" to use the technical term, and how it affects selection of weapons which, in turn, is one of the conditioning factors in selection of tactics.

    For example, in pre-industrial Pastoralist societies we find that pretty much every male starts guarding flocks at an early age (usually 5-6). Part of this means that they have to be able to protect their flocks from predators and this means a bias towards missile weapons (bows, slings, staff slings, javelins, spears, etc.). By the time these kids reach "manhood", a variable age that is culturally defined, they have usually had at least 10 years of learning to use these weapons and, if they have survived so far, they are probably pretty good with them.

    So, we have a couple of cultural "vectors" established.
    1. Males learn to use weapons at an early age;
    2. once the become "men" hey are also "warriors";
    3. most warriors are very good at blending into the environment;
    4. there is a bias towards the use of missile weapons and, in most instances,
    5. they also use some form of animal mobility (horses, camels, chariots, etc.).
    The exceptions to the mobility rule come in environments where the terrain strongly limits mobility, e.g. mountains and deep forest, or where there are no large animals capable of providing that mobility, e.g. pre-Columbian North America (hunted to extinction by 5000bce) and sub-saharan Africa above the Tropic of Capricorn (viral plagues that destroy horses and camels).

    So, what ype of military force are we likely to see? A group of warriors who are highly mobile, use missile weaponry well, and will likely use hit and run tactics.

    Now, compare this with horticultural / agricultural societies. First, you have a higher population density. Second, you have urban cultures, fields and, often, irrigation works. All of these require massed labour and a fixed location. This means that you have a large population that s culturally conditioned to
    1. work together in a repetitive manner;
    2. culturally standardized ways of doing things;
    3. fixed assets that must be protected (fields, storage areas, etc.);
    4. processing technologies that produce standardized products;
    5. a cultural requirement that people work in teams; and
    6. a hierarchical society with strong role differentiation.
    So, what type of military force are you going to see? Well, for one thing, you are going to see a differentiation in weaponry by class: a "general" type of weapons for each. Second, you are going to find a situation where most people are not warriors and have little combat experience (they are farm workers). Third, you are likely to see hierarchically organized groups of soldiers (not warriors) using standardized training and tactics based on teamwork - group movement.

    End of lecture

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  19. #79
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Sarajevo, The Secret Service model will validate everything you say! That was one of the things they found out during their research and the reason they believe there is no such thing as a bomber "profile" that can be used. it boils down to a person in a desparate situation who believes he has no other option and nothing left to loose. Yes it is simple it is not rocket science.
    I didn’t read that study Slapout9, even that I watch one woman from Secret Service talking something about it (thanks for the link, I will give a look tonight).

    What I have in mind was that European study “Engineers of Al-Qaeda” (I believe is called) and interviews and memoirs of Aukai Collins a.k.a. “American Mujahiden” when he (unsuccessfully) tried to explain to FBI that they profile of jihadi warrior are wrong.

  20. #80
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tequila View Post
    I have a tough time with your historical analysis. An American cultural "way of war" shows that the U.S. adapted many cultural forms of warfare throughout its history. The pre-Revolutionary period up to the Civil War saw Americans engaging in frontier style battles emphasizing light infantry and open order fighting that also had major influences on the British Army. The Civil War saw a total abandonment of this in favor of the massive fire-power based army that would see the U.S. through all its major wars up through OIF I.

    Assessing a proposed dominant role of martyrdom in Arab military tradition would require historical examples of such. I have a tough time finding any significant ones before the modern era. Most cultures glorify warrior heroes who die in combat rather than surrender --- see 300 for a Western example, or the Alamo for an American one (no surrender there!). Any society with any warrior tradition will tend to have this cultural ideal somewhere.
    Yes!

    Every society has examples of “suicide attacks”! Except, in they mind those are heroic act of sacrifices for they “brothers in arms”, for Queen, God & country and these are “Muslim fanatics”… I don’t know that much of history but one can find example all back to Ancient Greeks, Ottoman Turks, Persian Assassins, warriors from steps of Asia and Caucasus, etc.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •