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Thread: Suicide Attacks: weapon of the future?

  1. #41
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
    They don’t care what you posting or watching on Internet… One just DOESN’T need to look of it and he will not see it. That’s not problem. Problem is when “your” culture, values and rules are FORCED on “theirs”. Simple.

    I don't think you understand the mindset. The reason they kill women that were raped, is because women FORCE men to do sexual things and therefore the WOMAN committed the real crime. They are witches who entrap men with their "wiles". Therefore, if they view porn on the computer, the west FORCES them to do so. 10 out of 10 mid-eastern males that I've known believe this, and they are EDUCATED people only.

    You say it’s not “nature of humanity” to let others "just live their lives"!? Did I understand you well here?

    Ummm, yes. If it weren't, why have we fought so many wars? Why would we have a Small Wars Council?

    Once again… Beheading, full covering of woman, stoning are customs of SOME people/tribes/sects and not part of real Islamic thought and culture.

    Oh, really? The impression I get, is of a very few sophisticates who have sufficient power to repress the tribal urges of their "subjects".

    Same like one would say that random killings of kids in schools, sexslavery and prostitution, racism, etc is not part of real “western culture”. One would say it is part of collective Primitive Behavior.

    At last we agree on something. All humans are primitive, and all societies are primitive, in their own way. In a lot of ways, Arab culture, for instance, is much, much more sophisticated than typical American culture.

    I dare to say, there is no difference between “western” or “eastern” Primitivism.
    Except that I am a member of the "western" primitivism, and do not wish to be subject to the whims of "eastern" primitivism.

  2. #42
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Back to the subject of suicide bombing: I believe it is the natural outgrowth of being continually embarrassed on the field of battle by opposition forces. Warriors who cannot succeed on the battlefield are forced to adapt different tactics, of which suicide bombing is one.

    I do not see suicide bombing as an unnatural progression of warfare. When it's all you have, it's what you use.
    Last edited by 120mm; 03-02-2007 at 07:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Except that I am a member of the "western" primitivism, and do not wish to be subject to the whims of "eastern" primitivism.


    I see. Well, at least you admitting your "western primitivism". But, realizing there is no much room for reasoning here, I will stop. Bias is just too big clouding the reality, fair judgment & truth. But, I am not surprised at all. Whatever.

    Time will tell.
    Last edited by Sarajevo071; 03-02-2007 at 03:53 PM.

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    I am somewhat guilty of "thinking out loud" on my keyboard. Please forgive me if I've given offense, but I think that a failure to support my own "in-group" in favor of an "out-group" doesn't make much sense.

    Now, if my "in-group" can find a way to sustain a state of peace with other "out-groups" that would be fine. I'm just not holding my breath on this happening.

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    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default How does a 'pension' affect suicide bombing?

    I recall Saddam Hussain provided large cash sums to Palestinian suicide bombers. Now it is a widely used tactic in Afghanistan and Iraq, are the bombers influenced by alternative pension providers?

    I assume there are plenty of rich supporters of the cause, individuals or institutions, with a variety of motives.

    Anyone aware of open source research on this aspect?

    davidbfpo

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    All I know is that funding for the Afghanistan insurgency is said to be, by various sources, fundamentally "unlimited". The typical Taliban is paid very handsomely for his "work." It's one of the issues that we are facing in Afghanistan, today, and one of the reasons the Afghan government has been forced to raise wages, recently. I cannot believe that his (TB) family is not taken care of, as well.

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    Are you two serious!?

    You really believe that insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq are influenced (and can be changed or stopped with more or less money to the individuals or groups)!?

    You really believe that if you pay Afghans they will stop resisting to the ocupation!? Of if you didnít fire so much Iraqi soldiers (or if you hired them back) that will made difference in they wish to defend they country!?

    Did I understand you right?

  8. #48
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Well, yes, a certain percentage of Afghans will fight for whoever pays them the most. Or whoever will pay them with the best chance of winning, and surviving to keep the money.

    Why else would the Taliban pay up to 10X what the government pays for soldiers?

    It's not a surprise, really. The only reason I stay in the Reserves, is for the drill pay each month and the extra few hundred a month retirement I will get at age 60. I could've retired last year, but chose not to for primarily the above reasons.
    Last edited by 120mm; 03-08-2007 at 04:48 PM.

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    NATO officials say the Taliban seems to be flush with cash, thanks to the guerrillas' alliance with prosperous opium traffickers. The fighters are paid more than $5 a day—good money in Afghanistan, and at least twice what the new Afghan National Army's 30,000 soldiers receive.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14975282/site/newsweek/

    The latest figure I've heard is $500 to $1000 per month for skilled fighters or special skills non-fighters. YMMV.

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    I am just saying that you cannot apply western (materialistic) values/rules to that part of the World.

    Sure, money has value for buying this and that but to make them mercenaries and pay soldiers is rally bad notion. Thatís not they main motivation.

    They were always reports of people with suitcases full of money (Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya), going in actual fight and recording on video for back home.

    Like a proof for rich benefactor that they money really going for real cause and fighting units (mujahideen) and not for some paper pushers or whatever purposes.

  11. #51
    Council Member Mondor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
    I am just saying that you cannot apply western (materialistic) values/rules to that part of the World.

    Sure, money has value for buying this and that but to make them mercenaries and pay soldiers is rally bad notion. Thatís not they main motivation.
    Afghanistan has its own set of materialistic values/rules. It does not need any help from the west on that score. Most of the Afghans outside of the cities are dirt poor and have little prospect of making any sort of living above subsistence level. We (the west) are not turning Afghans into mercenaries. They generally tend to view fighting as just one of the things a man does. The man who gets paid more for fighting then the next guy is just a luckier or smarter guy. No shame is attached to fighting for pay.
    It is right to learn, even from one's enemies
    Ovid

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    I was not talking about “shame” but more about motivation since there is HUGE difference in motivations in mercenaries and in someone defending his land. If we can’t figure real motivation factor in they fight (without bias or hate against them) how will fight them!? Jihadis are not materialistic like western soldiers so one can’t look at them thru that lens and hope that more or less money will stop them. Simple truth. Now, from there one can think further and develop a real COIN strategy.

    That was my point.

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    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Sarajevo071, do you have any suggetions on what the Strategy should be?

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    Council Member Mondor's Avatar
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    I'll agree with you that Jihadis tend to fight for other than materialistic motivations. However, knowing that your family is going to be taken care of is a comfort that will allow most suicide bombers types to go forward with a certain peace of mind.

    My point is that most Afghan's are not Jihadis, and that money and prestige are powerful motivators for the majority of the population. "The" enemy does not exist in conflicts like the ones we are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. The conflict is multifaceted and those fighting with us today may be fighting against us tomorrow, or they may the passive population that will support whoever is in control today. To try and identify "The" enemy, as if this disparate elements are a single monolithic entity, is a comforting but foolish game that will only come around and bite us.... in places we would rather not be bitten.

    Everyone is a potential enemy, and a potential ally, everyone.
    It is right to learn, even from one's enemies
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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarajevo071 View Post
    I am just saying that you cannot apply western (materialistic) values/rules to that part of the World.

    Sure, money has value for buying this and that but to make them mercenaries and pay soldiers is rally bad notion. Thatís not they main motivation.

    They were always reports of people with suitcases full of money (Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya), going in actual fight and recording on video for back home.

    Like a proof for rich benefactor that they money really going for real cause and fighting units (mujahideen) and not for some paper pushers or whatever purposes.
    So the multiple reports by NGOs and PRTs claiming that we are losing Afghanistan because of poverty and lack of reconstruction are just made up b.s.?

    We can't apply materialistic (western) values to that part of the world? I'm going to forward this thread to all the PRT and Contracting officers I know in Iraq and Afghanistan. They need a good laugh. Either that, or they can stop paying Warlords money and start paying them in hugs and pats on the head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    So the multiple reports by NGOs and PRTs claiming that we are losing Afghanistan because of poverty and lack of reconstruction are just made up b.s.?

    We can't apply materialistic (western) values to that part of the world? I'm going to forward this thread to all the PRT and Contracting officers I know in Iraq and Afghanistan. They need a good laugh. Either that, or they can stop paying Warlords money and start paying them in hugs and pats on the head.
    Pfu! Yeah, do that.

    And also ask them how many INNOCENT people end up in Gitmo because poor Afghans sell them to US troops just because they didnít like the neighbor or they needed the money since they country is ravaged and/or occupied for years!?

    And how much INTEL value did those poor bastards have!?

    And, if you have numbers of those innocents (who didnít care for Taliban or West before) that end up being piss off enough to join Taliban or AQ after return, please share with us!

    After all those years and BILLIONS, what did all that money did it!?

    Are we safer? Taliban disappeared? AQ destroyed?

    Yes, stop putting western values on everyone and open your mind and then maybe you will understand your enemyÖ Donít you think if Western forces killing LESS they civilians and kids that will bring better results then killing villages and then paying them off!?

    Again, western idea that everything can be fixed or healed with money is to materialistic and to simplistic approach for global Islamic insurgency that is around for decades.

    But, what I know. You are the expert here.
    Last edited by Sarajevo071; 03-09-2007 at 04:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Sarajevo071, do you have any suggetions on what the Strategy should be?
    Well, I am neither smart nor experienced enough to fully answer question like that. Seams you have here wide range of experts and people with experience and brainÖ

    But, it seams to me that one first need to realistically look on causes and effects of situation today, be honest and open, less bias, and try to understand other side, they motivations and clicks in order to use same against themÖ

  18. #58
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Guys

    I believe that if you step back and look at it you--especially 120mm and Sarajevo--are arguing for the very same points.

    Sarejevo:

    Use of money and assistance is a tool and indeed a key one in winning support. It does not translate automatically into a system built on payoffs.

    120mm

    NGO reports are I believe quite accurate in assessing local moods; key to those mood assessments is to examine underlying issues as well. The SENLIS report is quite good in this respect.

    When we do get in the mode of pure pay off--buying "loyalty" or assuming we can buy forgiveness for sloppy operations--we are fooling ourselves. Buying loyalty never works because you are putting a price tag on something intangible. It is like assuming you have bought the "loyalty" of a GM dealer because you bought a GM. Paying indemnity is a ultimately self-defeating because you ARE putting a price tag on lives.

    My 2 cents

    tom

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    I agree, Tom. I could point out several earlier threads where I argued Sarajevo's points, exactly. I just don't know where I keep "going off the tracks" in this thread.

    Other than that, I can't imagine what I can add, here. I just think it's sad that we cannot rationally discuss the role money plays (or doesn't play) here.

  20. #60
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    I just think it's sad that we cannot rationally discuss the role money plays (or doesn't play) here.
    Sad maybe

    Human definitely

    Best

    Tom

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