The US & others working with Pakistan

[omarali50]

It sounds a lot like a message "See, they are also our enemies (thus we aren't their ally by definition)!"

Fuchs, if you are implying that the army did it to convince the US about its anti-jihadi bonafides, then I think you are wrong.
Stick to Uncle Occam's razor. The obvious story is probably true:
1. Jihadis have had free reign in Pakistan for decades. Dozens of training camps, half a million trained terrorists, links with intelligence agencies, a network of madressahs to supply recruits and sanctuaries, a network of supporters and funders. Sympathizers in the armed forces and political parties organized to support them "above ground" (primarily, the Jamat e Islami in educated areas, the JUI in the western region).
2. The top brass calculated that fighting against the US was not a good idea and decided to become allies. But they had neither the ability nor the inclination to take on the jihadist network in a full-frontal assault. More to the point, they have not been able to build up such an ability over time because most of them did not get the full implications of what was being attempted. Getting through the current crisis with minimum damage has been the priority but the goofiness extends in every direction. Even that job has not been done well.The top brass are incompetent (for the most part..i believe General Kiyani is a relative exception, but only relatively speaking) and do not have access to an intellectual foundation for anti-jihadism. They are not the sort of peple who could see that this turn away from Jihadism would have to extend to a turn away from the ideological narrative that supported jihad.
3. Terrorists wanting to make a spectacular strike picked this target because it was easy. Its a large base in the middle of a crowded city. I have seen the aircraft parked there from the road passing by the base. Whether it was naval aviation or air force or army aviation probably made little difference. As in ANY large base, they probably had a few sympathizers in the base. That made the details easier.
4. Only four terrorists seem to have gone in. Maybe 6. The response was as much as the base could manage. No conspiracy is needed to mess up a response in Pakistan or India. A conspiracy well above our abilities would be needed to deliberately prolong anything.
The terrorist networks can do this sort of thing anytime. THAT may have been the main intended message.

[Ray]

Gen. Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, the present Chief of the Army Staff (COAS), Gen. Nadeem Taj, who retired recently, and Lt. Gen. AhmedShuja Pasha, who is on an year’s extension after having reached the age of superannuation on March 18,2011, have, in that order, headed the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) during the period between 2005 (month not known) and May 2,2011, when Osama bin Laden was reportedly living near the Pakistan Military Academy (PMA) at Abbottabad, about 100 kms from Islamabad.
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5C...paper4476.html

Gen Kiyani is taken to be a good Army Chief because, notwithstanding good reasons to take over the governance of Pakistan, he has stayed away from this course.

However, he is deeply involved in the use of Pakistan's 'strategic assets' i.e. the terrorists.

Pakistan’s Strategic Asset: Osama bin Laden

So, it was a little awkward when our Pakistani “partner” in the war on terror issued a warning to America. “Let no one draw any wrong conclusions,” said Gilani of the Navy Seals’ 40-minute in-and-out bin Laden bug hunt. “Any attack against Pakistan’s strategic assets whether overt or covert will find a matching response. Pakistan reserves the right to retaliate with full force. No one should underestimate the resolve and capability of our nation and armed forces to defend our sacred homeland.”
http://www.teapartytribune.com/2011/...ama-bin-laden/

So long as there is this contradiction of joining in the WoT on one hand, and protecting and nurturing the 'strategic assets' on the other, nothing constructive will emerge with regards to the WoT or for the safety of Pakistan itself!

[omarali50]

I think that General Kiyani is not considered smart because he did not take over. He would take over in 5 minutes if he thought it could work, but its not a good time to take over. He is considered smart because he keeps his mouth shut (unlike that buffoon Musharraf) and seems to have some vague idea that Pakistan's army has to change its relationship with the jihadis or give up its relationship with the rest of the world. But that's about it.
OK, here is my prediction. Eventually, responsibility for reworking Pakistan will be given mostly to China. IF India can avoid the temptation of falling for its own propaganda and getting over-excited and can just sit tight for ten years, all this nonsense will work its way through the system in Pakistan (with great violence, but mostly within the country) and will die off (literally, in most cases). Its not a viable way of thinking. But it may be best to let China deal with it. Its a very difficult job and neither India nor the USA are in a good position to perform this therapy...they can help a little, but most of the dirty work will be done by China. Of course, the key is to somehow convince the Chinese to also pay for it. The arrangement whereby the US borrows money from China and throws it in the general direction of afpak is not a sensible arrangement. But I guess the Chinese invented money and they are not going to fall too easily into this quicksand. Oh well, back to the drawing board. ....I am sorry, its hard to keep up the "optimism" for too long. But one tries.

[Ray]

What actions are visualised that the Chinese would have to do to 'rework' Pakistan?

Pakistan has 'donated' the Shaksgam Valley of Kashmir to China and now China has its troops in other parts of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. Who knows if more land will be 'donated' for favours given by China. That surely could not be an acceptable input whereby China will 'rework' Pakistan?

What is the guarantee that Pakistan would not sponsor terrorist actions against India (during the 10 years suggested) for India to 'avoid the temptation of falling for its own propaganda' ?

What is this 'own propaganda' India is undertaking?

Is it too much to want the perpetrators of the Mumbai carnage be brought to justice? Pakistan was in a denial mode.

However, the US Court proceedings underway are clearly indicating that Headley and Rana were used by the LeT and ISI to carry out the carnage and the Mullah leader of the LeT was personally involved, as also was Major Iqbal of the ISI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/wo...24headley.html

In your opinion, India should forget what has been done so far to India, so that China can 'rework' Pakistan?

I may add that India has shown remarkable patience with the terrorist attacks to include the Mumbai carnage.

Lastly, it is fine for China to publicly profess undying love for Pakistan.

But in real terms, what has China actually done apart from building infrastructure that will basically benefit them and their strategic interests.

I fail to understand why Pakistanis require to look for 'outside' help to solve their own internal problems.

It is for the Pakistanis themselves to cleanse their country since they best know what is good for them.

No outside help, even their all weather friend, China, will be able to clean Pakistan.

US has tried to help, with advice, money, military hardware, CIA to nab the terrorists as also assist the ISI, but has not been successful as desired.

China, will hardly part with their money since they are desperately trying to catch up with the USA.

Therefore, Pakistanis must boldly work their future. They alone know how the mess they are in, be it terrorists, financial woes, poor governance, the military and ISI being the power behind the façade of a democratic government etc etc, has been created. They alone thereby are the best judge to clean the Augean stables.

The world has suffered enough, be it WTC, London Underground, Madrid bombings or Mumbai carnage, at the hands of the Pakistani religious terrorists, state sponsored or otherwise. The world is hardly in a position to allow a 10 year free run for Pakistan to be reworked. The trust deficit is too deep to take the risk!

The world population is more precious than the antics of frenzied religious fanatics!

[omarali50]

My suggestion is not that India should stop pressing Pakistan to stop training and sheltering terrorists. It should continue to do that. some of that pressure does work incidentally.
My suggestion is that India should not get carried away with propaganda about how its only its restraint (or "timidity") that stops it from whacking Pakistan and making sure Pakistan doesnt do anything bad ever again. What stops it is the fact that the military gap between Pakistan and India is not as large as sometimes imagined or portrayed. There is no easy way for India to whack pakistan without getting badly whacked itself in the process (if you are interested, I would guess that India will "win" any such war, but it will be the mother of all pyrrhic victories). So, lacking easy options, India has to bite its lip and work on getting its house in order and use whatever leverage it has with Pakistan's main sponsors (the US, China, Saudi Arabia) to pressurise Pakistan...which is actually something that those sponsors are already doing btw, and which pressure is not without results (though results are obviously not ideal at this time...we do not live in an ideal world).
Propaganda may require that threats be made and bombastic statements be issued. I am not a good judge of what is good propaganda and what is a waste of time and money.
"getting carried away" is starting to believe your own propaganda and missing real opportunities because of that or doing something adventurous that you may regret.
As you may have gathered, I have no interest in promoting some paknationalist fantasy on this or any other forum. But I think its good to be realistic, at least in private. There is actually a very real constituency for peace in pakistan. And increasing trade, travel and cultural exchange with India are helping to cement that constituency. A lot of the panic in "paknationalist" circles comes from their insecurity about their domestic position in pakistan.
About what China will do. I have no idea. That was a partly sarcastic comment. But seriously, I do think that China does not believe it is in its interest to promote Pakistani jihadism too much. My confidence is not really about China. I think modern society is bigger than China or India. Modern capitalism includes and uses nationalism and its associated grand strategies and strings of pearls or whatnot, but it does put some practical considerations into play. China and India are not just competitors in the nineteenth century world, they are also partners in making money. One element does not completely overwhelm the other, but those considerations do have their effects. Besides, China is a country of infidels with 60 million or more Muslims living in its borders. It has its own reasons for being very suspicious of jihadism. Just like there are "strategic thinkers" in India who dream about getting strangled with strings of pearls every night, there are strategic thinkers in china who dream about such things. But they are not the only people doing the dreaming.
Of course, things could go wrong. Capitalism did not stop capitalists from fighting ruinous world wars (and most capitalists did not make money from those wars, though some did). I think modern life is very cruel and sad in many ways. But it is very powerful and its tentacles manage to work their way through in many strange ways. It may eventually lead to socialism, who knows, but in the meantime, it will continue to eat its way through many older notions and will #### them out in places like Pakistan. Via China or via India or via America, I dont know.

[AdamG]

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan's military was ridiculed and accused of complicity in the media on Tuesday after a small group of militants laid siege to a naval air base, holding out for 16 hours against about 100 commandos and rangers.

*

"Political rhetoric and a Cabinet Defence Committee meeting are not going to solve this one," read an editorial in the English-language daily, The News. "This is an epic failure exposing an existential threat that will need epic leadership to countervail."

An editorial in the Urdu-language Jang, one of nuclear-armed Pakistan's biggest and most pro-military newspapers, said the attacks illustrated "a weakness of security measures".

"In very polite words, it can be called worrisome negligence."

Others went beyond incompetence and suggested that the attackers had help from within the military.

"Did the Taliban raiders have information inside the naval base?" wrote Dawn, another English-language daily. "Such a possibility cannot be ruled out, because the involvement of serving personnel in several previous attacks has been well-established

http://in.news.yahoo.com/pakistan-me...090535735.html

WASHINGTON – Pakistan has returned the wreckage of a US helicopter used in the American raid that killed Osama bin Laden early this month, a Pentagon spokesman said Tuesday.

"The wreckage of the helicopter destroyed in the bin Laden operation was returned over the weekend and is now back in the United States," Colonel Dave Lapan told AFP.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110524...20110524181011

[Ray]

My suggestion is not that India should stop pressing Pakistan to stop training and sheltering terrorists. It should continue to do that. some of that pressure does work incidentally.
My suggestion is that India should not get carried away with propaganda about how its only its restraint (or "timidity") that stops it from whacking Pakistan and making sure Pakistan doesnt do anything bad ever again. What stops it is the fact that the military gap between Pakistan and India is not as large as sometimes imagined or portrayed. There is no easy way for India to whack pakistan without getting badly whacked itself in the process (if you are interested, I would guess that India will "win" any such war, but it will be the mother of all pyrrhic victories). So, lacking easy options, India has to bite its lip and work on getting its house in order and use whatever leverage it has with Pakistan's main sponsors (the US, China, Saudi Arabia) to pressurise Pakistan...which is actually something that those sponsors are already doing btw, and which pressure is not without results (though results are obviously not ideal at this time...we do not live in an ideal world).
Propaganda may require that threats be made and bombastic statements be issued. I am not a good judge of what is good propaganda and what is a waste of time and money.
"getting carried away" is starting to believe your own propaganda and missing real opportunities because of that or doing something adventurous that you may regret.
As you may have gathered, I have no interest in promoting some paknationalist fantasy on this or any other forum. But I think its good to be realistic, at least in private. There is actually a very real constituency for peace in pakistan. And increasing trade, travel and cultural exchange with India are helping to cement that constituency. A lot of the panic in "paknationalist" circles comes from their insecurity about their domestic position in pakistan.
About what China will do. I have no idea. That was a partly sarcastic comment. But seriously, I do think that China does not believe it is in its interest to promote Pakistani jihadism too much. My confidence is not really about China. I think modern society is bigger than China or India. Modern capitalism includes and uses nationalism and its associated grand strategies and strings of pearls or whatnot, but it does put some practical considerations into play. China and India are not just competitors in the nineteenth century world, they are also partners in making money. One element does not completely overwhelm the other, but those considerations do have their effects. Besides, China is a country of infidels with 60 million or more Muslims living in its borders. It has its own reasons for being very suspicious of jihadism. Just like there are "strategic thinkers" in India who dream about getting strangled with strings of pearls every night, there are strategic thinkers in china who dream about such things. But they are not the only people doing the dreaming.
Of course, things could go wrong. Capitalism did not stop capitalists from fighting ruinous world wars (and most capitalists did not make money from those wars, though some did). I think modern life is very cruel and sad in many ways. But it is very powerful and its tentacles manage to work their way through in many strange ways. It may eventually lead to socialism, who knows, but in the meantime, it will continue to eat its way through many older notions and will #### them out in places like Pakistan. Via China or via India or via America, I dont know.

Restraint and timidity is not Indian Govt propaganda. Given the obsession of our Prime Minister to have peace at all costs with Pakistan, no matter how many Indians die in the bargain and no matter how many stout denials come from Pakistan of its complicity, it is the perception of the Indian media and the Indian public at large.

It is the Pakistani perception that India aims to ‘whack Pakistan’ for being ‘naughty’. There are no suggestions to that effect in India. That is why the Sundarjee Doctrine is outdated and instead it is the “Cold Start” which is the current flavour.

The gap between the militaries of India and Pakistan is indeed narrow, thanks to the munificence of the US; at least, the technological gap! In fact, Pakistan is possibly better off. India cannot match up since it pays hard cash so that there are no strings attached! One has to lose some, if one does not want to be under vassalage. No offence meant, but the Pakistani Parliamentary proceedings indicates the outcry that Pakistan will not tolerate violations of its sovereignty. Obviously, none would issue such statements unless they were violated in letter and spirit. And would it not be a truism that the said sovereignty was already willingly bartered, and so why the hue and cry?!

As far as ‘wins’, I presume no war is without losses. One has to accept it. However, how long is India expected to remain supine and be bled?

It must be appreciated that there is also a threshold of getting ‘whacked’ by Pakistan through terrorist attacks and pan Islamic movements in Kashmir in the name of ‘independence of Kashmir’. If Pakistan was really serious about ‘Independence of Kashmir’ could she not have given the same to the part of Kashmir held by Pakistan? That would have surely put pressure on India. In reality, all this piety and heart bleed for Kashmiris is nothing but a cover for pure and simple land grab!!

Are the Kashmiris really keen on Independence? Yes, some. Like the Hurriyat, which is but a Pakistani supported and a pan Islamic funded organisation that claims to represent the Kashmiris? If Kashmiris were really keen for Independence, then why are they regularly participating in well subscribed elections at all levels of government and governance (observed by foreign media and diplomats) and why the huge enthusiasm to join the Indian army and the police (as witnessed in the recruiting rallies)? Surely that puts paid to the theory that the Kashmiris are raring to go for independence. The demonstrations in Srinagar have been established to be a well paid hire a mob show. Happens even within hinterland India and the cadre based organisations like the Communists and Hurriyat require no time to organise such shows.

In so far as Indians ‘getting their house in order’, the conditions are not that chaotic or unmanageable as in Pakistan. That is so evident. No dissatisfaction in a country can be organised without funds. Guess who is funding them or giving sanctuaries? And that includes vested interest funding the Maoists too!

US, China and Saudi Arabia are indeed helping Pakistan. They are only keeping Pakistan propped up; the US with financial and military aid, China with pious platitudes and Saudi Arabia through funding of fundamentalists, madrassas and shoring up the Pakistan National Budget because Pakistan does not have the money to even pay the interest for their foreign debt!! If they stopped doing so, Pakistan would collapse like a house of cards. And obviously, they will demand and get the leverage they want to fulfil their national interest.

One does not get carried away by propaganda. One gets ‘carried away’ by acts that they see happening and the brazen denial of those who promote such horrendous happenings. If there is a real constituency for peace in Pakistan, don’t you think it is high time they stand up and be counted, rather than cowering down and fearing their own Zia created terrorists?

One of the best ways to start thinking of Peace is to desist from the temptation that religion is the be all and end all of even temporal issues. Nayyar and Salim (Pakistani intellectuals) in their report on Pakistan’s education system – The Subtle Subversion – (Link given earlier – have indicated that unless textbooks for children that emphasise Islam being uber alles, the glorification violence through issues like jihad, the Hate India and Hindus or falsification of history such as Pakistan was there from the 7th Century etc etc, the mindset cannot change. There lies the rot. All pontificating of 10 year moratorium to ‘rework’ Pakistan by China will otherwise fall flat on its face.

Were you being sarcastic over the China comment of yours? I seem to have missed that since the syntax did not indicate so. China, being Godless, maybe sold to moneymaking. However, in India, God still exists. There is a slight trace of conscience still left.

The ‘string of pearls’ is a US postulation and I daresay they are wrong. When one churns up the economic, political and strategic inputs, one has to stop playing the ‘Pin the Tail on the Donkey’. One does not dream of such things, one merely prepares for the reality and not dream Peace as Abu Ben Adhem did.

This statement –

but in the meantime, it will continue to eat its way through many older notions and will #### them out in places like Pakistan. Via China or via India or via America

– is intriguing!

Do I see a lament and a blame game where the ills of Pakistan is being parcelled off on the shoulders of the US, Indian and China? I wonder if these nations filled Pakistan with a grandiose delusion that it was one of the budding powers that be. Did these nations encourage the jihadis to run a riot in Pakistan and internationally? I fail to see the logic.

[AdamG]

ISLAMABAD—The Taliban has no plans to attack Pakistan's nuclear arsenal, its spokesman declared, as the militants kept up their campaign to avenge Osama bin Laden's death, ramming a pickup truck laden with explosives into a police station and killing six people.
*
"Pakistan is the only Muslim nuclear-power state," Mr. Ehsan said in a telephone interview, adding that the Taliban had no intention of changing that fact. The Taliban, after all, aim to take over Pakistan and its weapons.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...283515312.html

[omarali50]

Ray, you are arguing with an imaginary person. I have no interest in blaming India or the USA or anyone else for Pakistan's policies. My last line was meant to convey that things will change in Pakistan because giving free reign to armed jihadists is really not a viable way of existing in the world (unless one is willing to dissolve the state and become Somalia). Whether that change happens via Indian actions, American actions or Chinese actions (or, as is mostly likely, a combination of actions by many actors including members of teh Pakistani elite who want to join Barnett's "core" rather than staying in the "gap") is of interest to those who are in the fray, but to a distant observer, those are details. The outcome is either Somalia, or a state willing to enforce its writ against armed terrorists. The route to each destination can be very convoluted.

[Ray]

Omar,

I am not arguing with an 'imaginary' person.

As I see it, you are the best placed person to tell us the actualities in Pakistan.

I place great credence to your words and sentences (though I will concede much of it at times is difficult to understand as desired by you since it is complex in thought, left halfway hanging and then moves on to another thought and so on).

The examples being China assisting and the last sentence of your post previous to the one I am replying.

My contention is simple. No one can help Pakistan, except Pakistan itself.

Pakistan's situation as it is unfolding is becoming really confusing. It is for people like you to help us on our way to understand contemporary Pakistan.

For instance, what do you make of this?

Imran Khan backs army rule, too

Imran Khan backs army rule, too

'ISLAMABAD: After MQM chief Altaf Hussain’s statement regarding support for martial law-like steps, the chief of Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaf (PTI) Imran Khan said his faction would back military rule for ‘stability’ of the country, ARY NEWS reports.....

Khan, however, said the army should not come into power and grab authorities of a civil and democratic government.
http://www.arynews.tv/english/newsdetail.asp?nid=36706

How can Imran back army rule and expect the army not to come into power.

Does it mean a civilian govt, without elections to form such a govt, but having the Army backing?

Or does it mean an elected civil govt backed by the Army?

If he means the latter, isn't the current govt a civil govt backed by the Army?

So, what is the difference?

Is he subtly implying a civil govt headed by himself (Imran Khan), backed by the Army?

If so, it reeks of personal ambition and that does not indicate a desire for governance and 'reworking' Pakistan.

I don't think Imran is much of a practical chap and is more on emotions.

I read that he has said that Pakistan should spurn US aid. Good and patriotic thought. But if US does not give financial aid or if the IMF and WB insist that Pakistan pays up, can good friend China or Saudi Arabia bail out Pakistan and continue to do so forever as the US is doing?

[omarali50]

Ray, it is nice to say that only Pakistanis can save Pakistan. But actually Pakistanis are not going to be able to save Pakistan. The Pakistani elite (the common people have very little input in this matter) is divided and all factions have foreign patrons (states as well as "non-state actors") as well as local supporters. It is important to try and see the factions in a reasonably accurate framework. A framework of "independent nation state and its domestic versus foreign policies" is a useful fiction and must be adhered to in some settings, but is not sufficient or accurate enough for the job at hand. Take a look at this news item (or whatever you wish to call it; Saleem Shahzad is a "reporter" with unusual and mysterious sources): http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/ME27Df06.html

Let us assume that the details are true (I am going to argue that even if the details are NOT true, they are near enough to some truth for my purposes, as will become clear); It tells you a few things:
1. The state is deeply penetrated by jihadists.
2. The Jihadists are not in control and neither are the anti-jihadists or those sitting on the fence.
3. The public face of events hides many shocking and unexpected details. This in itself is an important feature of life in Pakistan and it is very important to be cognizant of how far the "inner reality" has moved from life in a democratic modern state or even a semi-functional developing country like India. Without keeping this in mind one ends up applying very misleading categories to events. Every country has hidden conspiracies and hidden layers of decision making. But this is qualitatively different.

The elite is in very very serious trouble. The normal civilian apparatus of the state (the police, the civil administration, the politicians) have long since lost control of the nether world where the terrorists and the army and its intelligence agencies are operating. Nobody is in charge in that world and everybody fears for their life and negotiates with bullets.

I have to run, but more later. I know this is very incomplete and baffling, but I do have a job and need to run. Mull over this till I get some more time...things are worse than they look. But not exactly in the way some critics think: the bad guys are not in control and running a massive con on the world. Nobody is in control and everybody is trying to con someone.
Or thats how it looks to me.

[omarali50]

http://www.brownpundits.com/2011/05/...p-nytimes-com/

[davidbfpo]

I posted in Post No.198 a link to this book by the journalist / academic Anatol Lieven and have just found another:http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/693...g-order-.thtml

[davidbfpo]

Catching up on my reading pile and this article appeared May 7th, by an experienced UK journalist, Christina Lamb:http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/al...-shadows.thtml

[omarali50]

Another reference to Lieven's book: http://tribune.com.pk/story/177749/p...04ac877d2f%2C0

and a comment on the PNS Mehran attack from a leftwing perspective: http://www.viewpointonline.net/kitna...thay-char.html

My own comment on the above column. The first part is about a recent (videographed) killing of 5 unarmed Chechens, including a pregnant woman, at a paramilitary checkpoint in Quetta in Pakistan: I dont think the killing of 5 Chechens at a checkpoint and then making up stories about a great suicide attack foiled by brave soldiers is what sets Pakistan apart. That sort of thing would float by in India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka with similar responses (some human rights activists and the above-ground version of whatever underground group suffered will make some noise, everyone else will forget in a few days or weeks). In fact, many such unjustified killings of unarmed people have happened in India (and the dead are then retroactively recruited into the lashkar e tayaba or the local Maoist group), in Bangladesh (specifically in the Chittagong Hill Tracts), in Sri Lanka (Tamils) and so on. What sets Pakistan apart is the unusual relationship between the state and the main terrorist network.
The people in India and Pakistan are similar, the culture is similar (though slowly diverging), the social problems are similar (though again, diverging), but the terrorism problem is not similar at all. The Indian state, with all its faults and its rickety structures and its incompetence and corruption, is on one side and the terrorists are on the other (the tiny number of Hindu rightwing terrorists may have a somewhat more ambiguous relationship with some elements of the state). In Pakistan, the state itself is divided into terrorist sympathizers, anti-terrorists, agents of various outside powers and time-servers with no loyalty to any idea beyond their own personal interest.
In India, the propaganda of the state as well as most media outlets is directed against the terrorists (the details obviously vary and there are pockets of sympathy for leftwing terrorists and islamist terrorists and hindutva terrorists among some sections, but I am talking about the mainstream view). In Pakistan the mainstream opinion is as divided as the state; most people are not even aware of the extent of support the terrorists were provided by the army. People in Mansehra and Azad Kashmir and other places where the training camps were located are obviously more aware than the rest of the country, but the educated elite in particular has little direct experience of the vast jihadi enterprise…and so on.
Its a unique situation.

[Ray]

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/majority-.../155213-3.html

An interview with the former Pakistan Foreign Secretary.

His comments on Pakistan tiring of its fundamentalism is of interest.

[omarali50]

Some sections of the establishment are starting to see that the jihadi course may not be viable. But others remain determined:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/30/journ...s-missing.html

The journalist who broke the story behind the PNS Mehran attack has disappeared in Islamabad.

[omarali50]

Journalist Saleem Shahzad found dead near Islamabad | Pakistan | DAWN.COM.
http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/31/car-b...i-alamgir.html
I dont know if this has been confirmed by other news organizations, but Dawn is generally reliable.
btw, Kiyani sahib went to school in Sarai Alamgir. This might be a message to him (i doubt if it is a message FROM him…I personally think he is not a bad person, but he lacks the means to clean the Augean stables).
So, whodunnit? A lot of people will immediately say “the ISI” and of course, they may be right. But it could also be jihadis (or the jihadi wing of the ISI) killing two birds with one stone.
Bad business either way. Very bad business.

[omarali50]

Now they are saying he was found near mandi bahauddin, so please scratch my conspiracy theory about sending a message to Kiyani.
Also scratch the part about Kiyani sahib being a "good man". How would I know that? I am clutching at straws here...

[omarali50]

What I mean by I am clutching at straws: if Kiyani and his team are fully involved in this business (rather than being incompetent goofs who cannot control more ideologically determined juniors) then imagine what disasters are coming our way in the future...