The US & others working with Pakistan

[JMA]

I think enlightened Indians should really grow up out of this "Islam envy".

You must surely be joking? Who could possibly have "Islam envy"? What is "Islam envy"?

[JMA]

... PS Sorry if I rambled.

No rambling IMO. I thank you for your reply.

[Ray]

JMA,

Just for the record.

Indian Muslims reaction to Osama's killing.

What does the death of Osama bin Laden mean to Indian Muslims? How do Islamic scholars see the world's biggest terrorist? A range of views emerged in conversations with a cross-section of Muslim intelligentsia. Yet one emotion seemed to override all others: Islam can never condone the perversities of Osama, and certainly not Indian Muslims who have carried the terrorist tag because of this one man. One budding Muslim writer retorted: why do you even ask us about him?

Jamia Millia Islamia Vice-Chancellor Najeeb Jung said there was no reaction to Osama's death on his campus or in the nearby Muslim neighbourhood of Jamia Nagar. “This is a reflection of the Indian Muslim's disinterest in Osama.” Mr. Jung also rejected the notion that Muslims elsewhere could feel sympathy for Osama, except perhaps in pockets of Pakistan.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/article1989005.ece

It is also a misconception that Muslims in India are the illiterate masses who have not found their place in the sun.

Education beyond the madrassas have given them a chance to be in the mainstream and they are no longer insular. They are well aware of the world and find it very sad that because of a few 'hotheads', the world is painting them with the same brush! Of course, there will be those who will find religion über alles, but then they are fringe lunatics.

Education makes all the difference in outlook. Has there ever been a problem of serious proportion with other religious groups? No.

Wherever there is a lack of literacy, there has been problems.

In UP (the largest state of India) there has been communal issues and caste issues, but in Kerala which has the highest literacy and Gulf money has also a high proportion of Muslims (Moplas), there has been no problems!

In fact, in Kerala, irrespective of religion (Hindu, Christian or Muslim), they celebrate a festival called Onam!! Onam marks the homecoming of the legendary King Maveli.

Education and affluence speaks!!

[omarali50]

JMA, "Islam envy" is the phenomenon in which some Hindu nationalist groups (and a penumbra of other Indians) overstate the great solidarity and "self-esteem" of Muslims (Ray's position is more nuanced, but more on that later) and contrast it with the supposed timidity and disunity of Indians (and seems to imply that if only Hindus were more like Muslims in these matters, they would do so much better). There is an element of truth in the unity and solidarity argument (but only an element) and very little in the "timidity" argument. Anyway, that comment would have been instantly understandable to my Indian friends on our own blog (free advert: brownpundits.com), even if they disagreed with details of my argument. But the bottom line is that this is all "leakage" from my other life and has little or no place on this blog.
My apologies for being unclear and for bringing in extraneous (and mostly irrelevant) discussions.
Ray, my point (made as a genuine indophile) was that there is no need to keep repeating some stereotype of timid Indians. India is a work in progress (slowly, but fairly steadily) and its reactions to Pakistan are not necessarily timid or aggressive, most of the time they are realistic. One can definitely dispute particular actions and reactions, but a lot of the narrative one hears in India around that criticism tends to irritate me because I think it is historically inaccurate and its not even useful as propaganda. But that's just me.

[omarali50]

Cyril has some interesting points: http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/20/more-...e-for-now.html

[AdamG]

From Bill Roggio's LONG WAR JOURNAL (better detail than the previous Reuters/et al MSM releases)

Pakistani Navy base under siege
May 22, 2011

Terrorists have attacked a Pakistani naval airbase in the city of Karachi today, sparking an hours-long battle that has resulted in at least two naval aircraft destroyed and several people killed. Fighting is still ongoing and hostages have been taken, according to reports.

A large terrorist assault team, thought to be between 15 to 20 men strong and heavily armed, stormed Pakistani Naval Station Mehran Sunday night in a coordinated, complex attack.

The heavily armed gunmen penetrated the security at the base from three gates and fanned out and attacked aircraft hangers, and military personnel. Two Pakistani naval aircraft are reported to have been destroyed. The military confirmed that one P-3 Orion maritime surveillance plane was destroyed. At least three other aircraft are said to have been damaged in the attack.

Four naval personnel and four terrorists have been reported killed during the fighting. The terrorists are said to have taken hostages and have taken control of one or more building on the base. At least ten terrorists are said to be holding the hostages.

Pakistani naval commandos, Marines, and Rangers have been deployed and have been fighting the gunmen.

Two P-3C Orion, a maritime surveillance aircraft, were targeted and destroyed in the attack, Haq said. The U.S. handed over the aircraft to the Pakistan navy in April 2010 and said it will receive a total of eight by 2012, according to the U.S. Central Command website.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...er-attack.html

[Ray]

Pakistani Taliban Behind Naval Base Attack
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pakistan-se...185218333.html

[carl]

Is the Pakistan Navy fully in agreement with the Army about the jihadi strategy or is there some friction between the services? Does anybody know?

[Ray]

The Faisal Base of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) located about 10 KMs from the Karachi internationl airport is what the PAF calls a Joint User airfield. It is used by the PAF and the air arms of the Pakistan Army and Navy as well as by the VVIP squadron. All air surveillance movements over the sea --- whether by the PAF or by the Army or by the PN--- are controlled from this base.......

3.The squadrons of the Naval Air Arm are stationed in PNS Mehran.These are the P3C Orion Squadron (28 Sqn), the Atlantic Squadron (29 Sqn), the Fokker Squadron (27 Sqn), the Seaking Squadron (111 Sqn) and the Alouette Squadron (333 Sqn).

4. While the Naval Air Arm was raised primarily to provide maritime surveillance capability against India, it has been playing, in addition, a counter-terrorism role since the US started its Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan in October,2001. This counter-terrorism role consists of air surveillance to prevent any sea-borne intrusions of Al Qaeda and to detect any terrorist plans for attacks on ships bringing supplies for the NATO forces in Afghanistan. The supplies are landed in the Karachi port and then moved by trucks to Afghanistan.....

6. The daring attack and the inability of the Navy to prevent it are likely to add to the feelings of humiliation in the Pakistani Armed Forces which have been prevalent since the Abbottabad raid.

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.com/

[omarali50]

You can see my comments at http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksd...omar-ali-.html

[Ray]

Your comments are interesting.

However, in 1971, while you apparently blame the US for token resistance against India, you could be more fair towards the US by analysing the geostrategic situation that prompted the US to do what they did.

It would be worthwhile to also indicate as to why, the all weather friend of Pakistan, China steered clear!!

That notwithstanding, on Afghanistan why do you feel that the GHQ was on an out of the world trip and the right wing requires to 're-write' their narratives and what are those narratives they have written.

Pakistan maybe led by more ambitious and intelligent people at this time, but unless they change their curriculum in schools that emphasise on Islam uber alles and their Hate India and Hindus agenda, nothing can change, internationally or regionally.

In an extensive study conducted by Nayyar and Ahmad Salim, in 2002, the following four themes emerged most strongly in history textbooks in Pakistan: that Pakistan is for Muslims alone; the Ideology of Pakistan is deeply interlinked with faith; one should never trust Hindus and India; and students should take the path of Jihad and martyrdom.

Education in Pakistan = half-truths, even falsehoods.
Written by:
Nadeem F. Paracha
Dawn Newspaper
http://www.forumpakistan.com/educati...ds-t30712.html

and

The Subtle Subversion
Editors: A. H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim
http://sdpi.org/sdpi-old/whats_new/r...&TextBooks.pdf

[omarali50]

I am not blaming the US for "token support' to Pakistan in 1971. I think even the token support was a moral failure (not unexpected....I am not claiming that I expect the US to act very morally in all situations). I was just pointing out what the official deep state narrative is built on.
If you see all the Pakistani talk shows, you will see that most commentators are unwilling to believe that our beloved Jihadists carried out this attack. The blame is being laid on the USA and India.
They are really really stuck. In my optimistic moments, I do hope that reality will bite at some point. But they really truly HAVE wandered off the reservation and do not seem to be able to change their storyline. It is sad and tragic and it may be fatal.

[AdamG]

Is the Pakistan Navy fully in agreement with the Army about the jihadi strategy or is there some friction between the services? Does anybody know?

Reportedly, PAF and Pakistani Navy have more Jihadists.

via DoctrineMan

Pakistani airmen sabotaged their fighter jets to prevent them from participating in operations against militants along the border with Afghanistan, according to a leaked U.S. Embassy cable.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...f4148641e0%2C0

[omarali50]

I think proportions of jihadist sympathizers are similar across the board. Though no one ever asks the Navy about anything,so there is a bit of resentment at the senior officer level..but the moronic narrative is the same.
btw, according to our official history, the naval chief found out we are at war by listening to radio Pakistan announce the fact (I am trying to remember if it was 1971 or 1965...or both...I wouldnt be surprised if its both).
The senior generals know the score (more or less). The airforce is told on a need-to-know basis. Nobody ever remembers to tell the admirals. Its not exactly the senior service in Pakistan.
You should see what Dr Shireen Mazari, director of the institute of strategic studies for a long time, and now senior advisor to opposition politician Imran Khan, and editor of "The Nation" and all-round TV pundit, is saying about this attack: http://www.ahmedquraishi.com/2011/05...ship-is-quiet/
This storyline is being peddled on all the "pro-military" (hint-hint, wink-wink) blogs. It would make ME sabotage a few planes if I happened to be literate and in the armed forces and read this stuff everyday.

[davidbfpo]

Carl asked:

Is the Pakistan Navy fully in agreement with the Army about the jihadi strategy or is there some friction between the services? Does anybody know?

After the OBL raid there was a photo of General Kayani at a high-level military meeting and not one naval officer was in the photo. That is one small sign and the Naval HQ is in Islamabad.

The navy is tiny, IISS Military Balance states 22k (inc. 1400 Marines & 2k Maritime Security Agency); eight submarines and nine principal surface ships. The army is 550k and approx. twenty-four divisions.

On a mundane level the navy has had significant day to day co-operation with Western and other navies since 2001 in the Somali piracy and other joint operations.

[davidbfpo]

Omarali50,

Thanks for the link to Dr Shireen Mazari's article, what a contorted story and so many questions asked. I wonder how did she respond to the LeT attack on Mumbai, that too was a provocation I guess.

I did note that the IISS Military Balance refers to UK 'forward mounting base air elements located at Karachi'. Is that at the naval airbase or another air force base? Speculating now, perhaps the USA also uses Karachi air base facilities?

Added: ITN News here has reported six US trainers were resident on the base.

Dr Shireen Mazari refers to the responding state forces:

What is equally disturbing is to discover that four to six terrorists held the whole base hostage for over sixteen hours and at the end of the operation it was given out that two terrorists may have escaped while four were killed. In comparison eleven of our soldiers were martyred, including our commandos.

Fed on a diet of these writings would a Pakistani sailor / marine / Ranger be that eager or committed to robust combat when the situation is so distorted? A whole base taken over by so few!

[omarali50]

The larger air base in Karachi is Masroor, which is 15 miles outside the city (and is said by some to have a few nukes...I would not know).
Shireen Mazari has a pathological hatred of India that goes well beyond normal punditry and mercenary motivations. I dont remember what she said about Mumbai, but I can guess that it was something along the lines "India and the US have conspired to arrange a drama and blame Pakistan"...then she may have changed stories. She is not exactly a stickler for accuracy.
About the poor response time, I think that is the subcontinental norm. Lower level soldiers and officers are usually brave and will not shirk from action, but they dont really train too much, especially for night actions. I can guess (without any inside information beyond growing up in the army) that no one at the base had EVER rehearsed fighting off such an action. It was dark, no one knew how many people were in there, half the time the commandos were probably shooting at each other, especially since naval commandos and SSG both responded.
Soldiers from the Punjab and Pakhtoonkhwah are very good "soldier material" when properly trained and led. The same cannot be said of the officers and the situation gets worse the higher up you go. I am not exaggerating.

[Ray]

At least 11 Pakistani servicemen are believed to have been killed, and there are reports that terrorists have taken hostages. The BBC reports that Chinese military personnel are among those held hostage. Washington Post reports: “Some reports said foreigners, possibly Americans, were killed or taken hostage in the attack; a Pakistani navy spokesman said that five Pakistani security personnel were killed and that no foreigners had been on the base.”

One wonders if terrorists alone can take over a base and create this type of a mayhem.

There are some commentators in Pakistan who feel that it is an 'inside job'.
http://thetimesofpakistan.com/2011/0...ttack-experts/

Now who are the 'insiders'?

Notwithstanding, it would be safe to assume that there are fundamentalists who are in uniform.

Even those who wanted to kill Musharraf was found to be from the Air Force!

The David Headley case unfolding in an US Court indicates that ISI organised the Mumbai blast.

Therefore, if the Govt and its military encourages jihad, then who can one complain to?

As the Bible says - "As ye sow, so shall ye reap."

One can't say about Pakistan, but in the subcontinent, night training is an important input.

Wars in the subcontinent is normally fought at night!

The Pakistan Army was equipped with Night Vision Devices even before the Indian Army and so that is no excuse. And more so with the generous US military aid.

The tardy reaction, if indeed it was tardy, was that it was possibly never believed that such an importance base could ever be attacked and that too in such a devastating manner!

Another interesting issue is that if US built surveillance aircraft with classified instrumentation were located there, what were the Chinese doing there?

[Fuchs]

It sounds a lot like a message "See, they are also our enemies (thus we aren't their ally by definition)!"

[davidbfpo]

An informative answer:http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ainst-taliban/

This will suffice for some:

Adm. Noman Bashir, the Pakistan navy chief, boasted during an interview on Pakistani television in March that his service had “provided our surveillance aircraft and a contingent of [Pakistan Navy commandos] to operate hand in glove with the Pakistan Army during” a recent offensive against the militants in the tribal areas.

There also a reported arrest in Karachi, two days after the OBL raid:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13429316