A Modest Proposal - National Guard as the heavy force

[120mm]

I've trained NG/RC battalions at JRTC and JMRC. I've been in NG/RC battalions. I have yet to see a single one that can C2 their Battalions (and higher) effectively. Their staff officers tend to be complete duds. Their commanders are too busy trying to "play soldier" in order to actually "suck the egg."

You indirectly mentioned one of the problems with the National Guard, overall. There are places in this country (usually the ones with the most federal funding, obtw) where the NG is seen as a welfare program. Some of the Southern and Northeastern states come to mind. Some of the soldiers I've met from there tend to be semi- to un-trained, and some admitted to getting paid without actually drilling. (800th MPs, anyone?)

I don't understand what you are trying to say with the General Honore comment. The Iowa Guard, where I come from, doesn't have a problem sending Infantry and CAV units to disaster relief. What kind of training do you think it takes at the unit level to respond to disasters? There is the 4 hour mandatory "stomp and drag" training that we did (or pencil-whipped) each year.

Your comment on maintenance is nonsense. Each state has full-time maintenance facilities for "maintaining thermal imaging/targeting systems" and other similarly complex systems. All it takes to maintain heavy armor is decent Company-level leadership that stresses PMCS.

[slapout9]

I am confused about the General Honore comment myself, especially since the Tornado that hit Enterprise,Al. High school last week. That is about 60 miles south of where I live. At least 3 helicopter medi-vacs were sent from Ft.Rucker (civilians were to chicken to fly) and 100 Alabma National Guardsmen were on the secene within hours doing some of everything that needed to be done. They saved lives and provided a much needed since of security.

[wm]

I've trained NG/RC battalions at JRTC and JMRC. I've been in NG/RC battalions. I have yet to see a single one that can C2 their Battalions (and higher) effectively. Their staff officers tend to be complete duds. Their commanders are too busy trying to "play soldier" in order to actually "suck the egg."

You indirectly mentioned one of the problems with the National Guard, overall. There are places in this country (usually the ones with the most federal funding, obtw) where the NG is seen as a welfare program. Some of the Southern and Northeastern states come to mind. Some of the soldiers I've met from there tend to be semi- to un-trained, and some admitted to getting paid without actually drilling. (800th MPs, anyone?)

I don't understand what you are trying to say with the General Honore comment. The Iowa Guard, where I come from, doesn't have a problem sending Infantry and CAV units to disaster relief. What kind of training do you think it takes at the unit level to respond to disasters? There is the 4 hour mandatory "stomp and drag" training that we did (or pencil-whipped) each year.

Your comment on maintenance is nonsense. Each state has full-time maintenance facilities for "maintaining thermal imaging/targeting systems" and other similarly complex systems. All it takes to maintain heavy armor is decent Company-level leadership that stresses PMCS.

Seems like we are doomed from the start. The anecdotal evidence presented in this thread would indicate that today's "Old" Guard couldn't possibly do what we might ask a new Guard organization to try to do.
I will just stop banging my head against the stone wall here.

[Jimbo]

I did Ac/Rc duty as embedd trainer in a NG battalion. What I learned is that even in the enhanced brigades, which get bettter money, the problem of state versus federal requirements is too great to overcome short of mobilizing the unit (the current model we utilize). The federal reserve dosen't really have the ground combat arms since we got rid of the seperate brigades in the early 1990's. The federal reserve tends to suffer from being underfunded, and the ability to change MOS's too readily. The ARNG suffers from having to be state troops first and foremost. I served in a TSD so I saw what the federal reserve has as far as issues (a lot of old men). I dealt with IT division guys in Iraq (even older men/folks with no MTOE experience), that was not a positive note. I worked with the Arkansas, Louisiana, New York, and Texas Army National Guard during their mobilization train-ups. 120mm hit the nail on the head of the dilemma that the guard has to face. The most successful guard battalions that I saw were commanded by LTC's who really didn't have aspirations of higher command within their states. They were willing to make hard decisions as it came down to answering their state or federal master.

[Rifleman]

I've always thought the reverse argument made more sense from a training and readiness standpoint; the Guard would make better light infantry than anything else, since it's a lot easier for part time soldiers to train light infantry battle drills and common tasks than to concern themselves with vehicle manintenance and mech/armor tactics. It's also historically in line with what a minute man was and might complement disaster relief, homeland security, and constabulary missions better.

That may not be what's most needed but it seems to make sense just from the perspectives of training and readiness.

Is there anything in the Marine Corps reserve system worth emulating?

[Mondor]

I have always wondered why the NG does not have a larger percentage of its resources trained and equipped as military police. During civil disturbances, disasters, natural and otherwise, it seems that an awful lot of the MP skill set would come in handy. I know that when my hometown was hit by a tornado and the NG came in they served in that function. I would imagine that a battalion of MPs would be more useful than a battalion of heavy armor in most civil disturbance scenarios as well.

I am not saying that all NG units should be MPs. I can see the utility of air and some light armor assets. I have a harder time seeing the need for a MBT rolling down the street. I know that we have a shortage of MP units in theater and that at least 25% of my reserve unit was law enforcement. It would seem to be a natural match.

[selil]

I have always wondered why the NG does not have a larger percentage of its resources trained and equipped as military police.

I asked this question about 20 years ago and was told that it's because a vast percentage of the USANG are already law enforcement officers in civilian life. I remember Desert Storm 1 and the depletion in the Sheriffs Department I was working in as dozens of Reserve and Guard troops were deployed. When they came through snapping up IRR it was like a ghost town. Since I was medically discharged from the Marines I wasn't going to be called back, but I could do LOTS of over time as an LEO.

[slapout9]

selil, that is very true the MP unit in Montgomery has already served 2 tours in Iraq and it puts a big dent in LE manpower on the street. MP units are very useful during disasters,riots,etc. so your question about why there are not more is one that should be looked at again. On the other hand during Katrina one of the most used assets down along the coast of Al. and Miss. was the USMC amphibious tractor units, helicopters were over taxed to say the least but the am-tracks could go anywhere. I thought this was strange because if my memory serves me correctly the am-track was originally designed to rescue Hurricane victims and the USMC modified for use in WW2 Ops. Seems like coastal area NG units would have more of this capability.