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Thread: Syria in 2016: an exchange on what to do

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  1. #1
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    mwe12 what is your position on these demands from the HNC which really are the same demands in the last UNSC resolution supported by both Russia and the US ......??
    Preconditions meant to derail the talks.

    They are essentially demanding the right to hide among civilians without Putin/Assad being able to club them. Clearly they know Russia will not end the air campaign and Assad/Iran will not drop their offensives, so they hope this can be a way out of them having to take part in talks.

    You will notice that this particular commenter tends to fulfill the above points .....
    After your comments about how great those crazy JAN kids are maybe you are the one getting paid per post (and you do seem to like to respond to one post 5 times).

    Specific questions were placed to this commenter and none answered......why is that?....answering the question/questions pulls the troll off his or her "narrative"....and then it is hard to get back on "message" and control the narrative.
    I would like to think I brought out the DeMarini in response to your points. You rail with worn out talking points about genocide and Obama being at fault, because practically no-one in his base wants to go to war over this, but when pushed all you have is weird rants about a Russian internet conspiracy to hire people to disagree with you.

    Pointing out that Russia is free to flatten another terrorist group 60km away from an ISIS position in response to you saying that is not deflecting your points, it's pointing out a truth.

    Russian info warfare or what is known as "weaponization of information" trolling requires a number of things....among them the ability to deflect, distort and distract. (key elements of the Russian 6Ds of propaganda)........all the while setting a particular narrative....as the narrative is the message they are attempting to push.
    Conspiracy theory nonsense. It is possible to read the MSM give liver-eaters op-ed space and run with AJ's narrative and still come to the conclusion we are better with groups allied to and brigaded with AQ dead.



    And the British dressmaker still has it at considerably more terrorists per civilian, though I would question the actual civilian status of many of those.
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News...r-strikes.html
    Reuters, Amman Saturday, 30 January 2016

    Russian airstrikes on Syria have killed nearly 1,400 civilians since Moscow started its aerial campaign nearly four months ago, a group monitoring the war said on Saturday.

    The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which collects information from a network of sources on the ground, said the Russian strikes had also killed 965 ISIS fighters as well as 1,233 fighters from various other insurgent groups.
    Not much of a genocide.
    Last edited by mwe12; 01-31-2016 at 01:16 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwe12 View Post
    Preconditions meant to derail the talks.

    They are essentially demanding the right to hide among civilians without Putin/Assad being able to club them. Clearly they know Russia will not end the air campaign and Assad/Iran will not drop their offensives, so they hope this can be a way out of them having to take part in talks.



    After your comments about how great those crazy JAN kids are maybe you are the one getting paid per post (and you do seem to like to respond to one post 5 times).



    I would like to think I brought out the DeMarini in response to your points. You rail with worn out talking points about genocide and Obama being at fault, because practically no-one in his base wants to go to war over this, but when pushed all you have is weird rants about a Russian internet conspiracy to hire people to disagree with you.

    Pointing out that Russia is free to flatten another terrorist group 60km away from an ISIS position in response to you saying that is not deflecting your points, it's pointing out a truth.



    Conspiracy theory nonsense. It is possible to read the MSM give liver-eaters op-ed space and run with AJ's narrative and still come to the conclusion we are better with groups allied to and brigaded with AQ dead.



    And the British dressmaker still has it at considerably more terrorists per civilian, though I would question the actual civilian status of many of those.
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News...r-strikes.html


    Not much of a genocide.
    mwe12...notice you never reply to the commenter you attempt to cut and paste on do you?

    2. this by the way is the core tenor of your narrative for the entire post.

    Preconditions meant to derail the talks.

    They are essentially demanding the right to hide among civilians without Putin/Assad being able to club them. Clearly they know Russia will not end the air campaign and Assad/Iran will not drop their offensives, so they hope this can be a way out of them having to take part in talks.


    Example of a troll is then set/contained within this above statement.

    Why is this statement interesting ...because you in effect take on the Putin mindset that yes I will play at supporting the US to get the latest UNSC resolution passed WHICH specifically sets out the urgent need for humanitarian aid to flow AND it sets out that bombing of civilians MUST stop.

    WHICH mwe12 then places Russia on record for stopping the bombing and starting the flow of humanitarian aid.

    BUT since you are a troller you fully understand that this is just Russian camouflage as Putin knows aid will never make it in thus he can continue his bombing of the Assad opposition ALL the while arguing in front a camera...see they are setting "pre conditions"....BTW Obama even uses this argument so where is the difference between say Putin and Obama's strategies in Syria?...Putin has one and Obama has none.

    3. this previous comment of yours is trolling as well as is it deflecting from the overall truth of Syria....namely there was and still is genocide being driven by Assad and now Putin.

    Your comment not mine....
    A. Assad is not committing a genocide.
    B. Russia has bombed ISIS. Russia is still bombing ISIS.
    C. Russia is within its rights to bomb the FSA/IF/JAN while supporting Assad. Putin does not have to limit his strikes to only ISIS.


    mwe12...you are attempting as a troll to cover the very public press conference held by Putin before he flew to the UNGA meeting...will be more than happy to point you to the actual Russian version where if you spoke Russian you would clearly hear and see that he states "his only reason for engaging into Syria was the destruction of IS...end of story....THAT exact story was then repeated in his UNGA speech also in Russian.

    BUT then as a troll you would have also known that he and his FM BOTH in two separate interviews two days later defined a "terrorist" as someone carrying an AK47 and fighting against Assad...will be more than happy to point you to that Russian interview as well.....always use the native language of the individual not some MSM translation into English.

    SO now based on the widened Putin definition of what a "terrorist" is then your narrative that you are pushing makes sense at least to you as it makes sense to Putin and his FM.

    Using the Putin definition of what a "terrorist is" would make the large number of US militias in fact "terrorists".

    Again this response and all of your responses are nothing more than trolling as you really do not contribute anything that has not been already published by say Sputnik, TASS or Interfax and or uttered by a Russian FM who basically lies with every interview.

    NOW a challenge to you.....if you think the Russian FM is not a lair then check his recent press conference this week WHERE he makes the statement and clearly makes the statement again in Russian THAT Russia did not violate the 1994 Budapest Memorandum because "they did not nuke the Ukraine".

    As he is a major troller himself he naturally failed to mention that he was only talking about one of six points in the Budapest Memo... he FORGOT conveniently the other FIVE points that Russia did/has been in fact violating
    .

    JUST as he always states during press conferences that the Ukraine has not implemented all 11 points in Minsk 2 WHEN Russia has not even fulfilled the single beginning point IE a true "ceasefire" and the required all for all POW exchanges.....

    BTW your responses here were again; distortion, deflection and a distraction.

    This section is interesting has it shows you are attempting to combine distortion, deflection and distraction into one comment.....

    Quote:

    Russian info warfare or what is known as "weaponization of information" trolling requires a number of things....among them the ability to deflect, distort and distract. (key elements of the Russian 6Ds of propaganda)........all the while setting a particular narrative....as the narrative is the message they are attempting to push.

    Your response;
    Conspiracy theory nonsense. It is possible to read the MSM give liver-eaters op-ed space and run with AJ's narrative and still come to the conclusion we are better with groups allied to and brigaded with AQ dead.


    Again highly suggest you reread the entire Ukrainian 2014-2015 and now 2016 threads to fully understand the term "weaponization of information"...

    Because you fully use the Russian 6Ds of propaganda.

    BTW cut and pasting really does make staying on message easy for trollers...
    same technique is being used over on the Twitter side.

    SECOND challenge to your trolling... with the initially secret Russian Syrian unrestricted SOFA signed in AUGUST and WHEN did Putin start bombing and WHAT is his true intent in Syria??....the destruction of any and all opposition to Assad that could be a future problem for his SOFA.

    BTW this agreement was not released by the Russian FM... it was released by "a so called independent Russian specialist" residing in the West and rumored to be close to Putin.......AND the US MSM did not pick it up for almost a week.

    Russian soldiers at the Hameimim air base in Latakia. Assad's flag nowhere in sight. #SovereignSyria?

    Prove that you can provide a direst answer to the two direct questions...but make them more than a single sentence and not in the cut and past trolling format.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-31-2016 at 09:07 AM.

  3. #3
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    I'm happy to have put him on igno... but from reading your posts, Outlaw, it seems he's claiming that insurgents are 'hiding between civilians'.

    This is a typical idiotic narrative about this war - in complete ignorace of the fact that the insurgents are Syrians, and fighting for safety of their families and homes.

    After all, nearly 70% of the ex-Syrian Arab Army (and other of regime's military branches) have defected in 2011-2012 period. Practically all of FSyA, nearly all of IF and AAS units are led by officers and NCOs that defected. Each of them has a wife and kids. If they make up only 50% of the insurgency, and each has a wife and two kids only (most have more kids, but well...), we're talking about 400,000 people.

    Where should they all go? And why should they leave their homes?

    And where should 13 million internally displaced Syrians - majority of whom fled from regime's, IRGC's, and now Russian terror - go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrowBat View Post
    I'm happy to have put him on igno... but from reading your posts, Outlaw, it seems he's claiming that insurgents are 'hiding between civilians'.

    This is a typical idiotic narrative about this war - in complete ignorace of the fact that the insurgents are Syrians, and fighting for safety of their families and homes.

    After all, nearly 70% of the ex-Syrian Arab Army (and other of regime's military branches) have defected in 2011-2012 period. Practically all of FSyA, nearly all of IF and AAS units are led by officers and NCOs that defected. Each of them has a wife and kids. If they make up only 50% of the insurgency, and each has a wife and two kids only (most have more kids, but well...), we're talking about 400,000 people.

    Where should they all go? And why should they leave their homes?

    And where should 13 million internally displaced Syrians - majority of whom fled from regime's, IRGC's, and now Russian terror - go?
    CrowBat... follow the trolling logical end game...if terrorists are hiding his term among civilians and if the civilians are bombed/killed then that is OK as they should have not been hiding the "terrorists" in the first place.

    Which if followed to the end means it is the "fault" of those killed as they should have kicked the" terrorists" out of their houses, schools, churches, food relief/NGO centers, IDP centers and hospitals and Putin is doing us all a great favor by killing them for us....

    "Thus no genocide is being committed"...."just good ole fashion killing of terrorists"......and if stupid people get in the way it is their fault...his logical thought pattern to its conclusion.

    Remember he basically admitted this with his comment on the 132 killed in Paris with a massive outcry and no one says anything if 169 are killed by Putin in a single day...and that day after day...meaning he accepts that French civilians are better than Syrian civilians or taking it a step further dead Christians outweigh dead Muslims....but he will not go that far.....as that is in fact racist...it is not in what he says..it is how the words he uses says what he wants to say.

    There is a very old US saying and it is racist....." a good Indian is a dead Indian......"

    NOTICE he mentioned nothing about say Hezbollah and the Iraqi Hezbollah KH both being declared by the US as "terrorist organizations" fighting along side Putin and their killing/starving of Syrian civilians.

    AND if in fact he is a "true American" then one would think he would be interested in Putin killing them as well as they have a ton of "US blood on their hands"...but certainly not in having Putin working with them as that would then mean Putin approved of them killing Americans in the past....

    That he conveniently skipped over that in his perceived anger against Sunni terrorists.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-31-2016 at 09:51 AM.

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    mwe12...notice the posted comment on the Iraqi Hezbollah terrorist group KH........fully supported and backed by the IRGC...and is fighting in Syria and has been declared a known terrorist group by the US and has killed a large number of US military personnel.

    Khamenei.ir @khamenei_ir
    Order of Fat'h given by Chief Commander of Armed forces to IRGC Navy commanders who captured intruding U.S. marines.

    pic.twitter.com/1gkGz2bh2p

    So while Putin is "killing Sunni terrorists for the West" the known Shia terrorists are being over looked......right??

    And that was not the intent of the Obama Iran Deal.......???

    BUT WAIT did not Putin claim he was fighting all terrorists.....he must not have been thinking about those pesky Shia terrorists he is supporting with his air strikes.....

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    BUT WAIT Putin in his UNGA speech "claimed" to want to destroy IS and that was why he was in Syria....

    So how does this match the Russian rhetoric.......?

    News
    The #RuAF once again flies massive supportive air strikes for #ISIS, hitting rebel positions north of #Aleppo


    No surprise that rebels fighting #ISIS in Sandaf & Mare’a in north rural #Aleppo were targeted by #Russia|n airstrikes today.

    Russian-led #coalition heading for stunning #victory in #Syria, 'Almost all hospitals & schools have been destroyed'
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 01-31-2016 at 03:00 PM.

  7. #7
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    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...t-all-there-is

    January 28, 2016

    Geneva: Is That All There Is?

    By Frederic C. Hof

    Without doubt the High Negotiations Committee of the Syrian opposition will authorize and direct its delegation to go to Geneva to engage in indirect "proximity talks" under the supervision of UN Special Envoy Staffan de Mistura. Whatever burdens have been borne by this opposition for the better part of five years, it simply cannot risk being blamed for the collapse of a diplomatic initiative spearheaded by an otherwise empty-handed United States. Whatever disappointments the opposition has experienced over the years from the mismatch between administration words and actions, it simply is not in a position to alienate Washington. As it did two years ago in Geneva, the opposition will mount the gallows of Syrian public opinion and hope the hangman overslept.

    From the beginning of the Syria crisis, those who rose against the incompetence, corruption, and brutality of the Assad regime have suffered from a friendship deficit. Washington's desire to see Assad gone was and remains somewhere between wishful and advisory in nature—no match for the material determination of Tehran and Moscow to keep their client indefinitely in power in at least part of Syria.

    The Obama administration sought, for its own domestic political purposes, to camouflage this fundamental imbalance with rhetoric about red lines and people stepping aside. It sacrificed its own reputation and credibility in the process. Iran, on the other hand, used its Lebanese militia to save Assad militarily in 2013. Russia has been employing its air force to save Assad since the fall of 2015. The American response to the strategic, diplomacy-shaping actions of others has been plaintive: surely Assad's friends know what an asset he is for the Islamic State (ISIL, ISIS, Daesh); surely Russia and Iran know that ISIL is our common enemy; surely Moscow and Tehran will work with us to put Assad to the side so Syrians can unite against ISIL; surely they know what a mistake they are making by intervening militarily. To speculate on how all of this is processed in the Kremlin, Tehran, and Damascus is to invite clinical depression.

    One can be as critical as one wants about the performance to date of the external Syrian opposition. Indeed, it is infinitely easier for senior American and UN officials to take a didactic tone with the High Negotiations Committee than it is to confront Russian President Vladimir Putin or Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov about their actions or those of their client in creating a rising toll of death, destruction, displacement, and terror among Syrian civilians—all of which benefit ISIL and all of which make creative diplomacy and compromise impossible. It is easier to lecture the Syrian opposition about its responsibility to engage in a dialogue than it is to corner Iran's president—now doing a "come and sell stuff to Iran" victory lap through European capitals —about Tehran's role in facilitating war crimes and crimes against humanity in Syria.

    The Syrian opposition is, to be sure, organizationally challenged. It is fractious. It cannot defeat Iran, Russia, and the regime inside Syria. Its ability to protect its own constituents is very limited. If airdropped tomorrow onto a welcoming Damascus it might, while eschewing collective punishment and mass murder, still prove lacking in governing skills. But this oft-reviled opposition wants Assad—an asset for ISIL and a tool of Hezbollah—gone. Is this not a basis for a close relationship with Washington? Are these people neither worth cultivating nor treating with respect?

    And for all of their defects they are neither blind nor stupid. They see Russians and Iranians killing armed Syrian rebels and civilians alike for the sake of preserving a useful client. They know that the greatest power on earth—the United States of America—has protected not a single Syrian inside Syria from the depredations of the Assad regime or its allies—not a single Syrian. And now they are being told exactly what they were told in 2013, before the Geneva conference fiasco of January 2014: come to Geneva, engage in dialogue, help the world see who is serious about this process and who is not, and we will be with you if the other side does not deliver.

    There are two missing ingredients in the relationship between the US government and the Syrian opposition: trust and confidence. Evidently some of what Secretary of State John Kerry said days ago to the General Coordinator of the High Negotiations Committee, former Syrian Prime Minister Riyad Hijab, was misunderstood and/or deliberately misrepresented to the media by some of Kerry's listeners. The Department of State has moved rapidly to refute allegations that Kerry was essentially presenting Russian talking points. Did the American side care enough about the audience to insure that the words it used were measured carefully and clearly understood? Was the Syrian side—on the basis of past performance—predisposed to hear something that simply was not said? How can this relationship be so lacking in basic trust and confidence? Who was it, after all, that the United States recognized in December 2012 as the legitimate representative of the Syrian people?

    If the Obama administration wants the Syrian opposition to risk whatever positive standing it may have inside Syria for the sake of a diplomatic due diligence exercise aimed at proving to the world that which is already known—that the Assad regime, Russia, and Iran have no interest in genuine Syrian political transition—then it will have to sit with the opposition and spell out what it intends to do to protect Syrian civilians once the exercise has run its course. The course itself need not be lengthy. If the bombings, sieges, and mass incarcerations continue, there is nothing to discuss—it is, as Special Envoy Staffan de Mistura told the UN Security Council on January 18, just another trip to Geneva. If the Assad regime does not accept the terms of reference embodied in the June 30, 2012 Geneva Final Communique, there is nothing to negotiate. It will just be a repeat of Geneva, January 2014.

    On January 27 the following exchange, which did not escape the attention of the High Negotiations Committee, occurred during the Department of State daily press briefing:

    QUESTION: And the—and at the same time, the Russians and the Syrians are providing additional support to the fight, or to their side of the fight. At what point does the United States decide that this test may be—that they failed the test and decide to increase—to increase pressure or change the balance of power on the ground in support of the people that the Americans are supporting?

    MR TONER: Sure. I think that’s a very valid but also very difficult question to answer. I would say we’re still committed—strongly committed—to seeing this process move forward. We feel like, since really this process began and has taken shape throughout the autumn, that we have gathered a little momentum here, that we have moved the parties together in the sense of having these talks, and that we’ve got to keep that momentum going.

    In the immortal words of the late Peggy Lee, "Is that all there is?" Because if that's all there is—if the Obama administration is just going to keep on dancing for the next twelve months-minus—2016 will be a very bad year indeed for Syrians, their neighbors, Western Europe, and the United States. The Syrian opposition will, with much apprehension and dread, play the role it has been asked to play in helping to reveal the obvious and unveil that which is already plainly visible to those who elect to see. It is, after all, the weakest of the actors. It continues to hope that the strongest will emerge from hiding behind the curtain and appear, at last, center stage.

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