Syria in 2016: an exchange on what to do

[Windows97]

1. windows97..now that you have impressed me with you somewhat not so correct fro text book copied shia comments...try finally answering the comment what is the difference between secular, salafst and takfiri Sunni's...

2. and when you finish that explain to us the shia revolutionary islam of 1979 and the green crescent of 1979.

3. Then let's discuss the recent 1979 revival of shiaism......meaning their definition of government vs the sunni definition of government

4. btw windows97 you also cut and past as does mwe12 so probably the same commenter just two different logons.......

... clarification of your statements is hardly trolling. It is good practice when discussing any half serious topic. If I don't know what you are talking about I cannot respond and whatever discourse we may conduct will be as mere ships passing in the night.

1. I have no idea what a secular Sunni is. Probably the same thing as a secular Jew or a secular Hindu. In other words an oxymoron. Salafis and takfiris are not mutually exclusive ontological categories or properties adhering to a group. A salafi can and often will declare that an opponent is a hypocrite or an apostate. The Muslim making that charge is thus a takfiri. After the first Islamic civil war under abu Bakr he often declared the tribe who turned their backs on him as apostates and thus he engaged in takfir. The same things occurred during the I'll fated tenure of Ali...hence Shiaism and the now extinct kharjirites. A Muslim making the charge of apostasy need not be a salfist, he or she could just be an ordinary Joe/Mohammed. But by doing so they are being takfiris. So, In sorry, but I don't really understand your point.

2. What exactly irks you about the Shi'a revolutionary moment in 1979 (which was, in fact, localised to Iran). The ousting of Pahlavi was accomplished by a rainbow group of disparate political forces. Khomeini lead one religious faction (of which he became its leader in exile and provided it with his legitimating ideology of velayat e faqih). The other was the traditionalist, quietist (non political) faction led by Ayatollah Shariatmadari who later died under suspicious circumstances IIRC. The only places where the Shi'a revolted were in Saudi Arabia and had virtually bugger all to do with Iran despite Saudi Arabia's attempt to paint it that way. Only Hizbollah, an Iranian proxy, follows the ideology of velyat e faqih. The idea of a Shi'a uprising is a general term that is inexact and explains nothing but may be useful polemically depending on your position visavis the Shi'a.

3. Extending this argument, what do you mean the Sunni doctrine of government vs the Shi'a doctrine of government? The so called Shi'a "theory" of government doesn't actually exist. There is a ithna ashari ideology of government typified and systemised by Khomeini's concept of velayat e faqih but if you mentioned it in Najaf they laugh you out of town. The Sunni believe in a limited form of elected dictatorship the only qualification being piety. Monarchs are tolerated (in an analogy of Kant's prescription against revolting against tyrants to preserve order and prevent anarchy) so long as they "enjoin the good and prohibit evil". For the Shi'a only the descendants of Ali are the lawful heirs to earthly government and in their absence they should either accept the rule of the jurisprudent (the regime position in Iran) or, in terms of the more traditionalist position (quietism) support anyone who ensures that Islamic law is upheld (similar to the sunni position with the proviso that clerical power is not impinged upon- he of the clerics original complaints against the Shah in 79). As for the Shi'a revival, it can actually be traced back to the mid sixties when Marxism-socialism was seen as an alien ideology by many people including the previously mentioned Ali Shariati especially in his book Red Shiism and jalal ali Ahmed's collected works. Many in the clergy saw a common cause with revolutionary groups. But then it gets complicated. Non Iranian regime Ithna Ashari Shi'a are awaiting the return of the twelfth occulted Imam in whom true legitimate wilaya rests. Zaydi Shi'a have Imams that fuse the concept of (weak) consent inherent in sunnism with that of divine bloodlines of the ithna ashari. But that's by the by...

4. I don't know why you feel the need to continually spout your professional qualifications as some " argument from authority". That authority being yourself your pronouncement thereby become inviolable. Is it that you don't like being told your are wrong? Or confused? Or unintelligible? Perhps your pervasive sense of inferiority compells you to continually state that you are more qualified experientially on this forum than anyone els. But that smacks of argument from authority. That authority being yourself. I have no need to cut and paste anything. Nor sir am I not a troll. Though you may well be. Humility is, though, a virtue you might want to cultivate.

Regards, W97

[OUTLAW 09]

w97...again you do not seem to fully understand Iranian "Revolutionary Islam" driven really first by Khomeini and now by Khamenei.....AND it was not just limited to Iran as you stated. BTW the rumored replacement for Khamenei is considered by many to be a hardcore Khomeini V5 and that means a brutally conservative religious fanatic....TIED to "Revolutionary Islam".

If you had fully understood the "principles of government" espoused by Shia vs Sunni government concepts then you would have noticed the major shift started by Khomeini and company with the title of Supreme Leader signifying that shift.

If you had fully understood the Khomeini principle espoused under the term "Green Crescent" then you would have fully understood exactly why the KSA has been pushing back since 1978 against Iranian Shi'ism.

The "dislike" between Iran and KSA actually dates from 1978 a full year before Khomeini took power via a religious coup and then killed off any of those students and leftists that actually threw out the Shah...if you had fully understood the Shah overthrow.

If you had understood that period then you know that it was the KSA that warned both the CIA and the US political leadership that Khomeini's 5 cent audio tapes of his Friday's Prayers coming out of Paris was far more of a threat than anyone anticipated including the Shah's secret police the CIA trained SAVAK.

Back to the Green Crescent...which is the arch created by a line running from AFG through Iran, Iraq, Syria and landing in Lebanon and if you had understood the Lebanese civil war then you would have seen the 3000 "volunteer RGs" marching into Baalbek Valley with their Green flags waving to "support their brothers" then they did nothing but waited and today we have Hezbollah which if you fully understand them.....they are a terrorist grouping under US definitions.

BTW...trace the "Green Crescent countries" and then layer them over the "old Silk Road" you might be surprised that it is an identical match...AND then ask yourself WHY the sudden interest by the Chinese in the rebuilding of this "Silk Road" they have been talking about and which the Ukraine just sent a train over to test all the way to Peking AVOIDING crossing any territory called Russia so now the "old Silk Road" has a ME route and now a central eastern European branch. An interesting recreation of the old 1500/1600s trading routes.

But again you knew all of this...thus the KSA pushback against Iran is to isolate this "Green Crescent" as it surrounds KSA and is viewed by KSA as a direct threat to them.

THEN you would have fully understood the tie in to the use of Iranian of IRGC/QUD forces, Hezbollah units from Lebanon and Iraq, 35 Iraqi Shia militias AND naturally all those AFG recruited Shia mercenaries ALL of whom are now in Syrian and many of them dying in Aleppo over the last few days as cannon fodder making sure the land corridor to Hezbollah is maintained and expanded in the name of "Revolutionary Islam" and the Green Crescent.

So while you and mwe12 beat up on the "Sunni's" you conveniently forgot the "Shia" which have far more "US blood on their hands" as does IS..which has killed random US citizens/military personnel.....remember it was not IS that attacked on 9/11 and remember even AQ has disowned them.

THEN if you had know all of the above then you can fully understand the Obama "selling" of the "Iran Deal" to Congress and you as a way to "moderate" Iran...but have you seen any "Iranian moderation" in Syria?

Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian
and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

If you had understood the concept of "radicalization steps of a civil society" then you would have seen this truck speeding directly at you...but Obama and Kerry appeared to not see the oncoming disaster OR what I suspect is closer to the truth...they do not care as he is out of office in less than 12 months.

Now disprove that......

BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Wars against AQ by the US since 2003 has actually increased the "influence and power of IS"...not the reverse.

So what is your solution...like mwe12 "just kill them all"......."ain't working" I am afraid.....

[OUTLAW 09]

w97...again you do not seem to fully understand Iranian "Revolutionary Islam" driven really first by Khomeini and now by Khamenei.....AND it was not just limited to Iran as you stated. BTW the rumored replacement for Khamenei is considered by many to be a hardcore Khomeini V5 and that means a brutally conservative religious fanatic....TIED to "Revolutionary Islam".

If you had fully understood the "principles of government" espoused by Shia vs Sunni government concepts then you would have noticed the major shift started by Khomeini and company with the title of Supreme Leader signifying that shift.

If you had fully understood the Khomeini principle espoused under the term "Green Crescent" then you would have fully understood exactly why the KSA has been pushing back since 1978 against Iranian Shi'ism.

The "dislike" between Iran and KSA actually dates from 1978 a full year before Khomeini took power via a religious coup and then killed off any of those students and leftists that actually threw out the Shah...if you had fully understood the Shah overthrow.

If you had understood that period then you know that it was the KSA that warned both the CIA and the US political leadership that Khomeini's 5 cent audio tapes of his Friday's Prayers coming out of Paris was far more of a threat than anyone anticipated including the Shah's secret police the CIA trained SAVAK.

Back to the Green Crescent...which is the arch created by a line running from AFG through Iran, Iraq, Syria and landing in Lebanon and if you had understood the Lebanese civil war then you would have seen the 3000 "volunteer RGs" marching into Baalbek Valley with their Green flags waving to "support their brothers" then they did nothing but waited and today we have Hezbollah which if you fully understand them.....they are a terrorist grouping under US definitions.

BTW...trace the "Green Crescent countries" and then layer them over the "old Silk Road" you might be surprised that it is an identical match...AND then ask yourself WHY the sudden interest by the Chinese in the rebuilding of this "Silk Road" they have been talking about and which the Ukraine just sent a train over to test all the way to Peking AVOIDING crossing any territory called Russia so now the "old Silk Road" has a ME route and now a central eastern European branch. An interesting recreation of the old 1500/1600s trading routes.

But again you knew all of this...thus the KSA pushback against Iran is to isolate this "Green Crescent" as it surrounds KSA and is viewed by KSA as a direct threat to them.

THEN you would have fully understood the tie in to the use of Iranian of IRGC/QUD forces, Hezbollah units from Lebanon and Iraq, 35 Iraqi Shia militias AND naturally all those AFG recruited Shia mercenaries ALL of whom are now in Syrian and many of them dying in Aleppo over the last few days as cannon fodder making sure the land corridor to Hezbollah is maintained and expanded in the name of "Revolutionary Islam" and the Green Crescent.

So while you and mwe12 beat up on the "Sunni's" you conveniently forgot the "Shia" which have far more "US blood on their hands" as does IS..which has killed random US citizens/military personnel.....remember it was not IS that attacked on 9/11 and remember even AQ has disowned them.

THEN if you had know all of the above then you can fully understand the Obama "selling" of the "Iran Deal" to Congress and you as a way to "moderate" Iran...but have you seen any "Iranian moderation" in Syria?

Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian
and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

If you had understood the concept of "radicalization steps of a civil society" then you would have seen this truck speeding directly at you...but Obama and Kerry appeared to not see the oncoming disaster OR what I suspect is closer to the truth...they do not care as he is out of office in less than 12 months.

Now disprove that......

BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Wars against AQ by the US since 2003 has actually increased the "influence and power of IS"...not the reverse.

So what is your solution...like mwe12 "just kill them all"......."ain't working" I am afraid.....

w97/mwe12...will give you a provocative question for both to answer...

Is in fact the Obama ME strategy and I hate using the term strategy because there is none THE exact same thing that Putin's is for Syria.? Meaning leaving Assad in power and basically not damaging/destroying Islamic State.

AND that this attempt by the US to copy Putin's FP has badly damaged US FP/standing in Europe and the ME?

Rebels say the U.S. cut their weapons pre-Geneva while Assad/Russia ramped up Aleppo attacks
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...mepage%2Fstory …
pic.twitter.com/LmC67qCzcX

I could actually link you to the press conference where Kerry stated publicly that "he had not threatened the HNC...AND they must have misinterpreted him"....BUT I know since you are following Syria you already know this.

Another provocative comment....Kerry lies just about as often as does his Russian FM counterpart Lavrov....true or false....?

[Windows97]

...how can anyone have a reasoned debate with someone who cherry picks (note you've thrown a lot of information I have already stated back at me in accusation that I have limited it!), dissimulates, and argues from petition principii. There was a reason I left the nut house that the SWC has become a few years ago. So, I shall follow the advice of a Shi'a Imam. All the best bub, I hope you get back on your meds before you run for president.

[mwe12]

I do wonder how the "ordinary (Arab) in the street" thinks. Who do they blame for the tragedy that is clearly happening?

America will take the blame for not showing up and invading. Seeing as people on this forum are already blaming the US for it.

As for the o-so rich Gulf Arabs who currently appear very reluctant to provide humanitarian aid, let alone refuge - are far happier to donate money and weapons to make Syria worse.

What I find insane about this situation is that our "allies" are the ones pushing for the same radicals who we set up the huge surveillance state to protect ourselves from. We are deluged daily with bizarre news stories that somehow we are "letting" these horrible states down by not bombing Assad ourselves to put in guys we consider to be terrorists.

=======

Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

At the moment they are busy getting bombed. JAN is part of AQ, you may cheerlead for them all you wish but at the end of the day they are part of the organization that murdered three thousand Americans in a single day (ignoring those who have died from various aliments caused by exposure) and are the cause of this whole global war on terrorism. And JAN is a part of the rebel alliance and fights alongside other bands of merry terrorists.

That you like them so much is a bit disturbing, but it does not change the fact they are terrorists and that they are part of AQ and each one Russia kills is a good thing.

Rebels say the U.S. cut their weapons pre-Geneva while Assad/Russia ramped up Aleppo attacks

Great and hopefully we keep the tap closed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...mepage%2Fstory

Rebel fighters sounded desperate as they described enduring more than 200 airstrikes in the past 24 hours alone. Commanders from a range of rebel groups, from moderates to the al-Qaeda-affiliated Jabhat al-Nusra, issued urgent appeals for reinforcements from other parts of the country.

Perfect chance to kill some AQ...

And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian

Guys who fight side by side with terrorists might drop the facade? Then I assume it is time to preemptively drone strike them ourselves; seeing as you say beneath every FSA member is a JAN/IS/IF member ready to pop out.

I guess the only good anti-Assad terrorist is a dead one.

and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

So the poor terrorist exporting states will have to give heavier weapons to terrorists because evil Obama hasn't gotten them control of Damascus, poor bastards.

Shame we won't cruise missile the everyone's favorite slave labor site for funneling weapons and money to terrorists.

BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Be well served to stand back and allow the SAA and their militias, after they are through with the other terrorists, to march on IS (while Iraq and its militias push from the other direction) and snuff/barrel bomb them out. The Assad/Putin/IRGC/Iraq express are the only realistic hope to finish off ISIS on the ground.

============
Why on earth do you respond to your own posts BTW?

[OUTLAW 09]

America will take the blame for not showing up and invading. Seeing as people on this forum are already blaming the US for it.



What I find insane about this situation is that our "allies" are the ones pushing for the same radicals who we set up the huge surveillance state to protect ourselves from. We are deluged daily with bizarre news stories that somehow we are "letting" these horrible states down by not bombing Assad ourselves to put in guys we consider to be terrorists.

=======


At the moment they are busy getting bombed. JAN is part of AQ, you may cheerlead for them all you wish but at the end of the day they are part of the organization that murdered three thousand Americans in a single day (ignoring those who have died from various aliments caused by exposure) and are the cause of this whole global war on terrorism. And JAN is a part of the rebel alliance and fights alongside other bands of merry terrorists.

That you like them so much is a bit disturbing, but it does not change the fact they are terrorists and that they are part of AQ and each one Russia kills is a good thing.



Great and hopefully we keep the tap closed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...mepage%2Fstory


Perfect chance to kill some AQ...



Guys who fight side by side with terrorists might drop the facade? Then I assume it is time to preemptively drone strike them ourselves; seeing as you say beneath every FSA member is a JAN/IS/IF member ready to pop out.

I guess the only good anti-Assad terrorist is a dead one.



So the poor terrorist exporting states will have to give heavier weapons to terrorists because evil Obama hasn't gotten them control of Damascus, poor bastards.

Shame we won't cruise missile the everyone's favorite slave labor site for funneling weapons and money to terrorists.



Be well served to stand back and allow the SAA and their militias, after they are through with the other terrorists, to march on IS (while Iraq and its militias push from the other direction) and snuff/barrel bomb them out. The Assad/Putin/IRGC/Iraq express are the only realistic hope to finish off ISIS on the ground.

============
Why on earth do you respond to your own posts BTW?

again nothing and or nothing else other than cut and paste trolling and if one reads this mwe12 response outside of being a critic of anything that does not match your personal beliefs which any troll can do...not much else there than RW ranting against Sunni's missing somehow the Shia terrorism side.

mwe12 must have been too young for the Beirut barracks and or to old/missed the entire Iraqi war as Shia terrorists killed far more US service members than did the Sunni insurgents including QJBR, not sure mwe12 even knows who QJBR is?

i keep asking him to prove just how JaN has threatened the US and or killed US citizens...which they have not but that does not matter when your only argument is "to kill them all as they are Muslims thus a threat to the US".

see actually trolling is easy as all you have to do is cut and paste, critique and not say much...any five year old can do that these days as they carry a smart phone and can google......

Trump 101............"make them wear yellow crescents".....

waste of time with this troll......

[davidbfpo]

As a Moderator I think the life of this thread has reached a limit. It is closed forthwith.

We should be debating 'what to do' with Syria, this exchange is not that.