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Thread: Russo-Ukraine War 2016 (April-June)

  1. #861
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    Default To Outlaw 09

    Certainly, (pro)Russian forces have deliberately attacked civilians and civilian property in Donbas and then blamed the collateral damage on Ukrainian forces. The problem in Donbas, particularly if the more indirect client model of Kremlin control is accurate (as opposed to direct control in Syria and Crimea), is that neither side has very good precision strike capabilities, and both are using weapons and doctrines that are not designed to account for civilians and their property in a battlespace. (Pro)Russian units have deliberately used civilians as human shields when it comes to staging areas for their armor and artillery and have stationed snipers in inhabited apartment buildings, with the objectives of either protecting their forces from Ukrainian fire or drawing that fire toward civilians in order to whip up support for their mafia statelets. Note that the (pro)Russian precision strike capabilities are superior to the Ukrainians because of their abilities to use UAVs for reconnaissance and to disrupt Ukrainian ISR with advanced EM warfare. Kyiv is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to avoiding collateral damage, and Donetsk, Luhansk and Moscow know this.

    Moscow has already attempted to coerce Kyiv into rebuilding Donbas, even as Moscow’s own “humanitarian aid” consists of weapons for the rebels, SOF and intelligence infiltrators and the ransacking of Donbas’ industrial equipment. It may very well be in Kyiv’s interest to ignore the region entirely and focus on economically developing the rest of Ukraine, although I doubt the rebels or Moscow would take this quietly.

    Washington has received a great deal of criticism for not giving more support to Ukraine, however, I would counter that the American response has been restrained for 2 reasons: (1) Washington wants to distinguish an attack on NATO from an attack on a country with which the US has no security commitment; and (2) Washington is signaling that not every conflict is its priority. There was a period during which the US military was perceived as the “world’s policeman” and that almost every country was of serious interest, regardless of the preferences of the other great powers. I don’t agree with the term, “unipolar moment”, as this implies that there were no other great powers and that the US had a free hand everywhere, when in fact, the US was simply not challenged in the non-aligned Third World in the same manner that it had been during the Cold War. That period has passed given the rise of China and reconstruction of Russia, and because Americans are no longer willing to pay, fight and die for non-core interests after the Iraq debacle. To get back on topic, I do believe that if the (pro)Russians advanced on Kharkiv or Mariupol, NATO arms (especially ATGMs, EW devices and counter-battery radars) and trainers would flow into Ukraine, forcing Russia to either fully commit itself or withdraw. While Ukrainian servicemen are being killed and injured daily, the Ukrainian nation is much culturally stronger and socially cohesive than at any time since independence.

    All I can say about Syria is that I hope Russia has an adequate protection program for its pilots post-deployment, as many will be hunted down in Russia by Islamists. They know what they’re doing, and so they shouldn’t be surprised if vengeance finds them in cozy retirement years from now.

    The Russian economy is certainly under pressure and Russians are increasingly feeling the pinch of sanctions and low energy prices, however, Russia’s economy is still robust, the central bank has substantial reserves, and economic growth is expected to return (albeit very low) by 2017. Note that Iran was under much more severe sanctions for much longer, and it continues to be debated whether or not the sanctions/low oil prices brought them to the table or whether Washington gave in to strike the JCPOA. International sanctions did not oust Hussein from Iraq or the Kim dynasty from North Korea, although they were so successful against Japan in the late 1930s that Tokyo regarded them as an act of war by the US.

    I believe that Putin jumped the gun on Crimea, as there was no evidence that the Black Sea Fleet was about to be evicted or that Crimeans’ ties to Russia would be severed. The rationale for invasion and annexation, based upon anti-Russian language policy never enacted and oppression from Ukrainian security forces that numbered 1/3 of Russian forces in Crimea, was spurious. The annexation of Crimea, together with the launching of a dirty war in Donbas, has only brought Ukraine firmly into the Western camp which is contrary to Putin’s goals. Nevertheless, Ukraine has not yet proven to be his Waterloo and the Russian people have tended to support his folly.

    I think that Washington is trying a compartmentalized approach to dealing with Moscow: cooperating in some areas, confronting Moscow in others. Certainly Washington has used rhetoric that implies Kyiv is wholly responsible for upholding the Minsk II agreements, although this may be entirely for Russian consumption. On the ground, NATO is training Ukrainian forces and the Western European capitals seem disinclined to ignore Crimea’s annexation just to get Russia to adhere to Minsk II. It is hard to say what is going on behind the scenes. Obama has been prepared to lose face diplomatically and to tighten screws very slowly, which is a novel approach for a POTUS, and which has garnered ire from Americans who want decisive action. The takeaway is that Ukraine has been irrevocably divorced from Russia and that the “left-bank vs. right-bank” cycle has been broken by Ukrainian patriotism that had been dormant since the late 1950s.

    I read that FP article before, although now I’m faced with a paywall. Aron has oscillated between “Putin has mastery over Obama” and “Putin’s regime is on the verge of collapse”, neither of which I think is true. Both Iran and Russia have lost their key allies for all intents and purposes and have been forced to burn through resources to preserve their geopolitical position, even as they suffer from economic and financial woes. As with Ukraine, the “cessation of hostilities” in Syria was never going to be full and fair, but it has bought the FSA necessary time and re-focused the war on Daesh and Nusra. Again like in Ukraine, a major pro-Assad violation would likely be met with a flood of GCC weapons by way of Turkey and Jordan.

    According to the US government, it took years to determine if Russia’s unnamed cruise missile (forgive my earlier R-500 reference which has been refuted) was in fact capable of violating the range limits set by INF and if that cruise missile was in fact designed to be ground-launched. Given the lack of information, I would speculate that Russia has a GLCM that it is developing in order to keep pace with Chinese developments, but which is not yet complete or in production.

    I don’t think Obama has any misconceptions about Putin; in fact, he has taken a firmer line than Bush, Jr. The JCPOA makes Iran more dependent upon contact with the wider world and unclenches the anti-American “resistance state” fist of Teheran. Of course, Iranian activities must be closely monitored, but outside of official scrutiny, we can be assured that the Israelis and Arabs are watching closely as well. I don’t see any evidence that Kyiv or the moderate/secular rebels of Syria have been thrown under the bus to further other American interests; I simply think that American interest is limited.

  2. #862
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    Azor...your points are taken but and there is always a but.....the US as well as the UK really do want to totally "forget" the 1994 Budapest Memorandum...go back and thoroughly reread it...it in fact could be read as to what the responsibilities of both parties are in the event that the Ukraine was invaded...there is even a specific paragraph on what constitutes getting them involved.

    That is exactly why the Obama WH from the very beginning used the word "incursion" to get the illusion that the Russians were "not invading" thus the US was not forced to invoke Budapest even though it was not a formal treaty because Clinton knew he could not get it through Congress as a Treaty. But is the underlying international assumption at the time of the signing was.."you give up the third largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in exchange for our protection in the coming years IF".......

    Well the IF came and the US/UK remained totally silent and Russia as always "reinterpreted" the agreement.

    Remember Stalin in a 1933 speech to key Party members stated..."we will sign anything and follow it as longs as it benefits us and then ignore them when it does not"....

    BUT what is interesting is that Nuland from DoS this last week for the first time used the word "invasion".

    Reference the Putin fear of the "last man standing economic syndrome"....a friend of mine is a high German Customs Officer handling the Eastern European truck traffic which includes Russia......Russian long haul truck traffic is down 89% over year and month since 2015 and most of the returning long haul carrying capacity going in the direction of Russia is minimal.

    When I commute on the highway that the Russian long haulers use I only see 1-2 per trip where it use to be 10-20.

    Right now there are estimates that both eastern Ukraine and Syria are costing Russian 5-7M USDs per day and that for literally months now coupled with the Russian PM's recent Crimea statement to pensioners of "suck it up we are out of money" and indications that Russia is running late in paying their Ukrainian mercenary monthly salaries does not bode well economically speaking...

    Reference the cruise missile...the US is highly concerned with the single test launch which was ground based where the missile far far exceeded treaty limits...now comes the problem...the analysts cannot say for certain if the onboard fuel was simply allowed to burn out to see exactly how far it would really travel or was it a deliberate test run for max target range...but when Russians develop a tactical/strategic missile system they tend to develop it for both ground and air launched abilities....

    BTW....there are actually some "thinkers" inside Ukraine that will argue that it is far more beneficial for Ukraine to simply give the Donbas to Russia and move on...BUT Russia cannot even support Donbas and really only wants it for leverage and the Ukrainians are afraid this move would then be used to seal forever the return of Crimea--economically speaking decoupling from Donbas would actually help Ukraine long term.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 06:37 AM.

  3. #863
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    Ukraine insists that OSCE shall indicate an attacking party in the East Ukraine.
    http://www.unian.net/war/1373642-ukr...-donbasse.html

    Ukraine wants this as support for their coming damages claims against Russia which will run in the billions of USDs and to deflect the Russian demands for the repayment for a 3B Euro loan/bribe in 2013 just before Maidan.

  4. #864
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    Russian Spetsnaz ground attacks are picking up in eastern Ukraine....

    Two Ukrainian servicemen were KIA in combat w/ hostile subversive group nr Pavlopil, Mariupol sector - volunteers
    http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2016/06/15/7111807/

  5. #865
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    While Russia loves info warfare it hates being on the receiving end lately.....

    Russian Diplomat Is Accused of Threatening Rights Activist on Twitter
    http://nyti.ms/1XVgNEo
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 07:02 AM.

  6. #866
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    Ukraine records 58 militant barrages, one tank attack in last day
    http://www.unian.info/war/1376073-uk...-last-day.html

    With 50 or more attacks per day it signals full combat ...Minsk 2 is long dead on the front line...

    .@hyeva_maryinka inside #Karasnohorivka. #7, #Sonyashnyi - fire outbreak, woman wounded
    https://twitter.com/loogunda/status/742969776683782144

    Krasnohorivka: ~5am a projectile hit residential high-rise building on #Soniashna St, 5 apartments damaged, 55yo woman injured
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 07:27 AM.

  7. #867
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    Huge arsenal of weapons and ammunition from ATO zone seized by @ServiceSsu in Dnipro city
    https://youtu.be/yh_FOKieqzs

    Butovka airshaft premises ("#Butovska mine" UA position)
    pic.twitter.com/HKMaeZn0MS
    http://novosti.dn.ua/details/275710/

    Last night's Russian shelling damage......
    Krasnohorivka, #Sonyachnyi micro-ds:
    http://novosti.dn.ua/details/275718/

    More damage from Russian shelling's.....
    Dokuchaevsk @whicard5 last night's aftermath: the end houses are damaged at #Stara_Kolonia on #Krupskoy&#Shevchenka, no injuries
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 07:54 AM.

  8. #868
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    Amazing that Russia is hacking US political party while being outraged at imagined US meddling into Russian politics https://twitter.com/mcfaul/status/742981487667073025

  9. #869
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    Azor......

    Canada considers European troop commitment as CSIS warns Russia is 'mobilizing for war'
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cana...ssia-1.3635139

  10. #870
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    The first 2 weeks of June 2016 saw 113 Ukrainian troops killed & wounded by #Putin's henchmen in #Donbas.
    2 KIA, 7 WIA yday.


    "There is no ceasefire" in eastern Ukraine says Ukraine's Defence Minister.

    And markings on more RPG-18 and RPG-26s captured in #Ukraine
    https://ssu.gov.ua/ua/news/1/category/2/view/1199
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 12:31 PM.

  11. #871
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    Norway calls military snap drill, hours after #Russia started readiness check @BarentsNews
    http://thebarentsobserver.com/securi...s-after-russia

    ATO spox: 3 militants WIA yesterday. Intelligence uncovered their names:Igor Dudarev, Igor Malytsky,Nikolai Stepanov
    http://liveuamap.com/en/2016/15-june...y-intelligence

    .@rianru "#Surkov to visit #Minsk for discussing questions of settlement in #Donbas"

    BUT WAIT...settlement on Russian terms..full Donbas rights to tell Ukraine what they can and or cannot do, no NATO membership and no EU membership

    Interesting development as full and complete POW exchanges where to have happened under Minsk 2 months...many many months ago but the Russian mercenaries refused to go along with them....

    Presidential Aides Meet In Minsk To Discuss Donbass; Talks Under Way On Returning Prisoners
    http://www.interpretermag.com/day-849/#14211
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 03:03 PM.

  12. #872
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    Минобороны России
    ✔ @mod_russia Rus MoD refutes statement by Jens Stoltenberg about alleged "breaching military transparency in Europe" by RF
    http://s.mil.ru/1UzeEaH

    BUT WAIT at least 15 major "snap drills and exercises" that required OSCE notifications before they happen over the last two years ...never happened...BUT maybe that is what Russia calls "transparency".....

    As #Russian military actions become less predictable, #US must take a stand to deter further aggression in #BlackSea: Amb. William Courtney
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 02:56 PM.

  13. #873
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    What the heck......????

    In act of defiance, Russian newspapers warn readers state TV is filled w/ lies
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilver...rm=.rwPEEq9ov6

  14. #874
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    Militants Suffer Heavy Casualties: 38 separatists killed in last few days
    http://uatoday.tv/news/separatists-t...ys-673313.html

    According to the official data, 623 soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were killed this year on the frontline.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 03:05 PM.

  15. #875
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    NATO now calls for RUS to withdraw troops from UKR. Roots of current UKR crisis not in 2014, but rather back in 2008 https://twitter.com/Doesnotplaywel/s...42886569185280

    YES! I have been saying this all along myself. NATO's indifference to RUS invasion of GEO laid groundwork for Crimea/Donbas.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-15-2016 at 03:10 PM.

  16. #876
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    Russians shelled all night and into this morning along with ground attacks.....

    Kadievka - Today from 0:10 to 1:10 in #Pervomaisk area battle was heard, AA-guns and some big caliber gun worked. https://twitter.com/DNSRRSTRTS/statu...99361136775168

    Maryinka - Ka-booms could be heard all night till 5AM, not intensive. Now quiet. 6:25AM

    ATO: 41 russian attacks in Donbas y/day, RU forces from #Dokuchajevsk shelled #Novotroitske and #Berezove with 120-mm mortars.

    NOTICE...the first clear identification of Russian troops actually involved in the shelling's by their own artillery units....there has been some cross border shelling's as well in the last week.

  17. #877
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    Azor...more evidence of the "last man standing problem" Putin now economically has......economically speaking time is truly running out on the Russian economy and Putin urgently needs to rethink...guns or butter as he cannot now do both as he first assumed he could when oil was priced far higher......that is why the "idea" of a short sharp war is appealing to some in Moscow because of their own propaganda they seem to think they could "win it"......and that makes Putin dangerous right now......

    Is Russia state running short on money? Reports of construction of key Crimea bridge being frozen.
    http://www.the-american-interest.com...as-no-clothes/

    Russia Is Saving Jobs, but Not the Economy | Stratfor
    https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/ru...bs-not-economy
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-16-2016 at 07:57 AM.

  18. #878
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    Russia's Invasion of #Ukraine: #Bellingcat publishes new evidence
    http://uatoday.tv/politics/russia-s-...ce-673714.html

  19. #879
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    NATO WARNS: Russia is building a military 'zone of influence'
    http://read.bi/21o4VZi

    DNR leader Alexander Zakharchenko is in Moscow and saying surprisingly conciliatory things about Savchenko
    http://liveuamap.com/en/2016/16-june...g-surprisingly … via @RolandOliphant
    AFTER threatening to kill her if she showed up in the DNR....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-16-2016 at 10:55 AM.

  20. #880
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    659 Minsk 2 ceasefire violations reported by ATO HQ in first half of June.
    631 ceasefire violations in May(31 days
    )

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