Results 1 to 20 of 228

Thread: UK Declares Independence From The EU!

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Scathing critique of the gap between what Vote Leave promised and what they will actually do. #EUref
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...P=share_btn_tw

    Saturday 25 June 2016 18.05 BST Last modified on Saturday 25 June 2016 18.27 BST

    Where was the champagne at the Vote Leave headquarters? The happy tears and whoops of joy? If you believed Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, the Brexit vote was a moment of national liberation, a day that Nigel Farage said our grateful children would celebrate with an annual bank holiday.

    Johnson and Gove had every reason to celebrate. The referendum campaign showed the only arguments that matter now in England are on the right. With the Labour leadership absent without leave and the Liberal Democrats and Greens struggling to be heard, the debate was between David Cameron and George Osborne, defending the status quo, and the radical right, demanding its destruction. Johnson and Gove won a dizzying victory with the potential to change every aspect of national life, from workers’ rights to environmental protection.

    Yet they gazed at the press with coffin-lid faces and wept over the prime minister they had destroyed. David Cameron was “brave and principled”, intoned Johnson. “A great prime minister”, muttered Gove. Like Goneril and Regan competing to offer false compliments to Lear, they covered the leader they had doomed with hypocritical praise. No one whoops at a funeral, especially not mourners who are glad to see the back of the deceased. But I saw something beyond hypocrisy in those frozen faces: the fear of journalists who have been found out.

    The media do not damn themselves, so I am speaking out of turn when I say that if you think rule by professional politicians is bad wait until journalist politicians take over. Johnson and Gove are the worst journalist politicians you can imagine: pundits who have prospered by treating public life as a game. Here is how they play it. They grab media attention by blaring out a big, dramatic thought. An institution is failing? Close it. A public figure blunders? Sack him. They move from journalism to politics, but carry on as before. When presented with a bureaucratic EU that sends us too many immigrants, they say the answer is simple, as media answers must be. Leave. Now. Then all will be well.

    Boris Johnson. Liar, conman – and prime minister?

    Johnson and Gove carried with them a second feature of unscrupulous journalism: the contempt for practical questions. Never has a revolution in Britain’s position in the world been advocated with such carelessness. The Leave campaign has no plan. And that is not just because there was a shamefully under-explored division between the bulk of Brexit voters who wanted the strong welfare state and solid communities of their youth and the leaders of the campaign who wanted Britain to become an offshore tax haven. Vote Leave did not know how to resolve difficulties with Scotland, Ireland, the refugee camp at Calais, and a thousand other problems, and did not want to know either.

    It responded to all who predicted the chaos now engulfing us like an unscrupulous pundit who knows that his living depends on shutting up the experts who gainsay him. For why put the pundit on air, why pay him a penny, if experts can show that everything he says is windy nonsense? The worst journalists, editors and broadcasters know their audiences want entertainment, not expertise. If you doubt me, ask when you last saw panellists on Question Time who knew what they were talking about.

    Naturally, Michael Gove, former Times columnist, responded to the thousands of economists who warned he was taking an extraordinary risk with the sneer that will follow him to his grave: “People in this country have had enough of experts.” He’s being saying the same for years.

    If sneers won’t work, the worst journalists lie. The Times fired Johnson for lying to its readers. Michael Howard fired Johnson for lying to him. When he’s cornered, Johnson accuses others of his own vices, as unscrupulous journalists always do. Those who question him are the true liars, he blusters, whose testimony cannot be trusted because, as he falsely said of the impeccably honest chairman of the UK Statistics Authority, they are “stooges”.

    The Vote Leave campaign followed the tactics of the sleazy columnist to the letter. First, it came out with the big, bold solution: leave. Then it dismissed all who raised well-founded worries with “the country is sick of experts”. Then, like Johnson the journalist, it lied.

    On Friday, Johnson and Dan Hannan said that in all probability the number of foreigners coming here won’t fall

    I am not going to be over-dainty about mendacity. Politicians, including Remain politicians lie, as do the rest of us. But not since Suez has the nation’s fate been decided by politicians who knowingly made a straight, shameless, incontrovertible lie the first plank of their campaign. Vote Leave assured the electorate it would reclaim a supposed £350m Brussels takes from us each week. They knew it was a lie. Between them, they promised to spend £111bn on the NHS, cuts to VAT and council tax, higher pensions, a better transport system and replacements for the EU subsidies to the arts, science, farmers and deprived regions. When boring experts said that, far from being rich, we would face a £40bn hole in our public finances, Vote Leave knew how to fight back. In Johnsonian fashion, it said that the truth tellers were corrupt liars in Brussels’ pocket.

    Now they have won and what Kipling said of the demagogues of his age applies to Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

    I could not dig; I dared not rob:
    Therefore I lied to please the mob.
    Now all my lies are proved untrue
    And I must face the men I slew.
    What tale shall serve me here among
    Mine angry and defrauded young?

    The real division in Britain is not between London and the north, Scotland and Wales or the old and young, but between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded. What tale will serve them now? On Thursday, they won by promising cuts in immigration. On Friday, Johnson and the Eurosceptic ideologue Dan Hannan said that in all probability the number of foreigners coming here won’t fall. On Thursday, they promised the economy would boom. By Friday, the pound was at a 30-year low and Daily Mail readers holidaying abroad were learning not to believe what they read in the papers. On Thursday, they promised £350m extra a week for the NHS. On Friday, it turns out there are “no guarantees”.

    If we could only find a halfway competent opposition, the very populist forces they have exploited and misled so grievously would turn on them. The fear in their eyes shows that they know it.
    Wes Streeting MP
    ✔ @wesstreeting I asked the Government what preparations were being made for Brexit. Was told: none. I am shocked that this now appears to be true

    "The Times fired Johnson for lying to its readers. Michael Howard fired Johnson for lying to him."
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 08:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    The mayor of Calais already demanding the scrapping of the agreement that keeps migrants in Calais rather than Dover. Well, we were warned.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 08:14 PM.

  3. #3
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Really really really worth reading.......

    Important by @CER_Grant on how unscrupulous Leave outmanoeuvred somewhat confused Leave. He said it before the vote
    . https://www.cer.org.uk/insights/how-...battle-five-ms

    Explains a lot of what I have been posting here.......
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-26-2016 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Replace defunct link with one that works

  4. #4
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,366

    Default

    Citing Azor in one tiny part:
    There is emigration by White Britons from the UK (typically to Canada, Australia or New Zealand)
    There has been a steady exit for many years now of white Britons, usually those with a ready skill needed abroad. A smaller number of ethnic minority Britons have gone too. Most simply see elsewhere as offering better life chances.

    Their destinations are far wider than the 'old' Commonwealth, although some pass the entry procedures. For example 200-250k Brits reside in the Gulf states. Considerable number of English teachers are scattered across the world. Of the two million UK citizens living in the EU (cited this week), one million are working.
    davidbfpo

  5. #5
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,366

    Default Who voted and why plus

    Many of the recent press reporting is based on Lord Ashcroft's polling, which starts with IMHO a very small sample size:
    The UK has voted to leave the European Union. On referendum day I surveyed 12,369 people after they had voted to help explain the result – who voted for which outcome, and what lay behind their decision.
    Link with far more:http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/
    davidbfpo

  6. #6
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Green Mountains
    Posts
    356

    Default

    A cri de coeur from one of those young, highly educated voters who represent Progress and so deserved to win:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/op...tons.html?_r=0

  7. #7
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    Everybody has obviously his opinion and his vote and who I am to not respect the specific decision. What bothers me greatly is:

    1. Lies, yes lies, played such an important part for the Leave campaigns concerning the economic consequences.

    As an Italian I'm used to that, we elected Mr. Lie four times, but it is always tough to stomach them.

    2. The Irish questions was hardly if at all mentioned or debated

    It's great that peace made the latter less urgent but to me that is rather telling that as in many other cases the good of the EU membership was just mentally skipped. The Irish Times article aptly describes part of the problem, while in the podcast some of importance of the EU in the peace process was underlined.

    3. The risk of Scotland leaving the UK was rarely discussed by the Leave campaign, which is in itself quite ironic.

    There is no doubt that this decision does increase it's probability. As we speak the SNP prepares for a second referendum and wants talks with the EU. Why was this effect hardly discussed in the media?

    P.S: The last graph with 'Leave' 7 out of 10 on the side of 'don't think the vote mattered much' is deeply disturbing, especially when compared to 1 in 4 of 'Remain'. Of course the expectations impacts that a lot but it meshes to some degree with a good amount of people deciding to give the gov a kick.

    P.P.S: VOXEU has lots of good takes on the economic effects and UK economic history. Keep in mind that Britain entered the European comunity after slipping from the richest economy to under-average performer. Within it the UK recovered and reversed economic course.
    Last edited by Firn; 06-26-2016 at 05:31 AM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  8. #8
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post
    Everybody has obviously his opinion and his vote and who I am to not respect the specific decision. What bothers me greatly is:

    1. Lies, yes lies, played such an important part for the Leave campaigns concerning the economic consequences.

    As an Italian I'm used to that, we elected Mr. Lie four times, but it is always tough to stomach them.

    2. The Irish questions was hardly if at all mentioned or debated

    It's great that peace made the latter less urgent but to me that is rather telling that as in many other cases the good of the EU membership was just mentally skipped. The Irish Times article aptly describes part of the problem, while in the podcast some of importance of the EU in the peace process was underlined.

    3. The risk of Scotland leaving the UK was rarely discussed by the Leave campaign, which is in itself quite ironic.

    There is no doubt that this decision does increase it's probability. As we speak the SNP prepares for a second referendum and wants talks with the EU. Why was this effect hardly discussed in the media?

    P.S: The last graph with 'Leave' 7 out of 10 on the side of 'don't think the vote mattered much' is deeply disturbing, especially when compared to 1 in 4 of 'Remain'. Of course the expectations impacts that a lot but it meshes to some degree with a good amount of people deciding to give the gov a kick.

    P.P.S: VOXEU has lots of good takes on the economic effects and UK economic history. Keep in mind that Britain entered the European comunity after slipping from the richest economy to under-average performer. Within it the UK recovered and reversed economic course.
    Firn...the use of disinformation in this vote was amazingly similar to that currently used by Russia and Putin....and that was and still is even in this morning in the UK somehow not being discussed.

    Social media open source analysis caught the similarity literally months ago but somehow they were not even looked at by UK MSM....even down to pointing who was driving it and their messaging/narratives....

    Why was it being ignored....it was coming from major UK MSM itself....the question is why and how was it paid for it and where did the money come from ie from which writers and their ties to whom????

    Disinformation is a powerful voice inside a "populist movement"....just look at Trump....

Similar Threads

  1. Reading The Declaration Of Independence
    By slapout9 in forum The Whole News
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-05-2013, 04:09 PM
  2. Electronic Jihad (merged thread)
    By marct in forum Adversary / Threat
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 10-13-2010, 06:58 AM
  3. Kosovo Independence
    By SWJED in forum Europe
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 09-22-2010, 01:47 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •