Oh my! Looks like Scotland and Northern Ireland may have a veto on #Brexit process - p 19
http://www.publications.parliament.u...om/138/138.pdf …
Oh my! Looks like Scotland and Northern Ireland may have a veto on #Brexit process - p 19
http://www.publications.parliament.u...om/138/138.pdf …
Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-25-2016 at 04:24 PM.
Not sure why immigration was an issue in the UK vote......
"Mass immigration" ...
The United Kingdom took 5.500 refugees from #Syria.
Germany took 305.000 since 2015.
BREAKING - Germany says six EU founding states want #Brexit to start 'as soon as possible' - @AFP
Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 04:41 PM.
The way the German MSM Bild's worldview changed since 1996 and the Daily Mail's hasn't says a lot about differences between German and UK political culture
Exclusive: Tata Steel bidders including billionaire tycoon Wilbur Ross get cold feet over UK's decision to leave EU.
http://goo.gl/IwRJww
'Leave' vote in #Brexit referendum was strongest in regions most economically dependent on EU
.@andrewmichta is spot-on that #Brexit will make Europe more inward-looking - unhelpful for US.
http://wp.me/p4ja0Z-Adv
UK already not part of Euro and Schengen and mentally absent for years, don't see much changing with Brexit.
Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 05:15 PM.
Appears Merkel is willing to have continued economic turmoil until UK leaves..in the end that hurts not helps the Euro.....
Merkel sees no need to rush Britain into quick EU divorce
http://reut.rs/294nZt7
In an interview today in Sky a Brit business lawyer stated even the Brit/EU/US businesses want a date to work against.....not uncertainy....
Try this passage to illustrate why immigration mattered:Link:https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...redum-campaignIn Barking last week I watched this doughty victor over the BNP confront lifelong Labour voters, who would not listen. They had seen good car industry jobs replaced with warehouse work, zero hours contracts and insecurity. But what they hated most was the sudden cultural change with migrants arriving in large numbers in a short time.
(Ends) Denying those voters a voice helps explain why those anti-EU, anti-foreigner emotions erupted so disastrously on Thursday.
Blair and immigration:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-public.html
Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-25-2016 at 05:40 PM.
davidbfpo
Outlaw09 cited in part:Immigration has long been an issue for the public to mutter about and sometimes has resulted in significant minority votes for extremist / nationalist parties - today UKIP, before them the BNP. The main political parties have simply ignored the discontent, anxiety and hostility.Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
We now know that Tony Blair's government quietly enabled significant immigration, from outside the EU - I do not have the figures or sources to hand, but a Google search will find them.
Then the initial restrictions on the 'new' EU nations coming to the UK were changed. Originally entry was permitted if employment had been found; the change enabled entry to search for employment.
In the last decade, maybe slightly more two million new jobs were taken by immigrants, out of IIRC three million jobs and whilst official unemployment figures show a reduction there is little sign of that in many places - especially outside London and the South East.
Yes, we have a problem with getting UK nationals to work, especially if the work is dirty, hard, involves long hours and the pay is low (even if the minimum wage has gone up). That is not a unique UK problem.
Resentment over "immigrants taking our jobs" and possibly depressing wages has become more vocal of late - before the EU campaign. As the referendum results suggest Exit support was highest in English areas with extensive new immigration, often where food processing is the biggest employer and those who fear immigrants are coming.
Add in the refugee crisis in the Mediterranean and it is easy to see how some parts of the Exit campaign exploited the fears and realities of immigration. Yes, very few Syrian refugees have made it here, but everyone knows there are thousands of migrants @ Calais mainly trying every day to enter.
Do not think immigration is a whites only issue, it is not and a good number of the "settled" immigrant communities, such as those from South Asia, also have concerns - especially as family reunions are harder to get permission for.
davidbfpo
David....
BUT this is what is not understood in Europe...UK is not part and parcel of “the Schengen Agreement” zone thus the so called "free movement of EU citizens" does not apply to UK...ALL the while UK citizens take advantage of Schengen to travel, work and reside in 26 different EU countries these days....does not quite sound right does it as it appears UK wants to eat the cake but refuses to provide the flour for the cake? ANd any outside the 26 countries coming in must have a Schengen visa thus would have been stopped in say Dover, Heathrow or Calais...
BUT THEN this
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...refugee-crisis
Sorry but I cannot find any EU decisions that forces UK to take any and all immigrants so is really the so called immigrant problem of the UK actually one that the UK in handling their own immigrant policies have been doing it poorly and then blaming the EU???British ministers including Theresa May and Philip Hammond have made hair-raising claims about the dangers of migrants entering the country. But do the facts bear them out?
There are countries with social infrastructure at breaking point because of the refugee crisis – but they aren’t in Europe. The most obvious example is Lebanon, which houses 1.2 million Syrian refugees within a total population of roughly 4.5 million. To put that in context, a country that is more than 100 times smaller than the EU has already taken in more than 50 times as many refugees as the EU will even consider resettling in the future. Lebanon has a refugee crisis. Europe – and, in particular, Britain – does not.
£36.95
Many claim that Britain is a coveted destination for migrants because of its generous benefits system. Aside from the reality that most migrants have little prior knowledge of the exact nature of each European country’s asylum system, it is not true that the UK is particularly beneficent. Each asylum seeker in Britain gets a meagre £36.95 to live on (and they are not usually allowed to work to supplement this sum). In France, whose policies are supposedly driving up the numbers at Calais, migrants actually receive substantially more. According to the Asylum Information Database, asylum seekers in France receive up to £56.62 a week. Germany and Sweden – the two most popular migrant destinations – pay out £35.21 and £36.84 a week respectively, only fractionally less than Britain.
50%
In the dog-whistle rhetoric of Hammond and Theresa May, the archetypal contemporary migrant in Europe is from Africa. But again, that’s not true. This year, according to UN figures, 50% alone are from two non-African countries: Syria (38%) and Afghanistan (12%). When migrants from Pakistan, Iraq and Iran are added into the equation, it becomes clear that the number of African migrants is significantly less than half. Even so, as discussed above, many of them – especially those from Eritrea, Darfur, and Somalia – have legitimate claims to refugee status.
76,439
Despite the hysteria, the number of refugees in the UK has actually fallen by 76,439 since 2011. That’s according to Britain’s Refugee Council, which crunched the numbers gleaned from UN data and found that the number of refugees in the UK fell from 193,600 to 117,161 in the past four years. By comparison, the proportion of refugees housed by developing countries in the past 10 years has risen, according to the UN, from 70% to 86%. Britain could be doing far more
Maybe it is not known inside the UK by many but even the EU put restrictions on the newer members on their Schengen concept and limited "freedom of movement" for countries like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria for up to four or five years...so to argue UK was going to be overrun is again simply a smokescreen.
BTW...had then the receiving UK communities applied for the EU Rural or Low Income Development Funds...they could have funded additional schools, hospitals and other local community improvements.....without ....having to burden the UK taxpayer as the rest of EU is currently doing.
Sounds like to me the UK does after 40 odd years...not know how to play the EU funding games...but that is not a problem of the EU......
IF we go back before the EU...the UK has always had a problem with immigration starting with passing out UK passports to those residing in the British colonies/British Commonwealth and THEN restricting them to come to the UK even with valid UK Passports so this so called immigrant problem has been there for literally years before the EU.
So to now argue it is the "fault" of the EU is a tad disingenuous.......
Another argument by Leave was that by not having to pay into EU will mean more money back to UK residents...BUT Moodys has been saying whatever the savings will be that will be eaten up by a far weaker public finances and less money due to the drop in the Pound.
The other argument of Leave was EU red tape is killing investment and new businesses.....BUT UK is second in OCED countries on investment and new businesses and trade...the top position is the Dutch...so evidently the so called red tape of the EU did not seem to hinder neither the UK and the Netherlands ......in the top OCED ten positions EU countries made up five......
Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 06:49 PM.
Free movement in the EU
Citing Outlaw09 in part:The Schengen Zone enables cross-border travel without producing a passport (or other accepted ID). The UK opted out of the Schengen Agreement (along with Ireland IRRC) and requires EU nationals produce a passport upon arrival - I'd call that free movement with a condition.BUT this is what is not understood in Europe...UK is not part and parcel of “the Schengen Agreement” zone thus the so called "free movement of EU citizens" does not apply to UK...ALL the while UK citizens take advantage of Schengen to travel, work and reside in 26 different EU countries these days....does not quite sound right does it as it appears UK wants to eat the cake but refuses to provide the flour for the cake??.
The UK in theory can refuse entry, but I understand that is rarely exercised. It can also deport EU nationals on limited grounds.
davidbfpo
David....I keep going back to the simple fact immigration is the smokescreen used by UKIP, the BNP and yes even the Conservatives in the form of Boris the "terrible"....
BUT in the end it is all about globalization......there was a comment recently that stated "markets do not know what a nation state is"...and if one thinks really long and hard..it is all about globalization.....
You comments on the auto factory workers is exactly that is being seen by the US autoworkers and yes I hate to say this but also seen in the GDR as early as 1989/1990---in my eyes "globalization" has been on a subtle move for a lot longer than we give it credit....
Reference Schengen.....the 300K or so Polish people residing in UK is balanced by how many Brits working, studying, touring, living on pensions in the rest of the EU.....more than outweighs the estimated 3M EU workers currently inside UK.
Just look at the sheer numbers of Brits currently living and working for the EU and Brit companies in say Brussels..just check hoe many evening flights there are between Brussels and London for the Brit commuter.
An interesting point was made last night that the majority voters for Leave when looking at education had little to no education levels and those that had a higher education level voted for Remain.
Education of the working class and or the non education of the working class goes to the heart of globalization if one is serious about a discussion on it.
Take as the example your auto workers now working in a warehouse...had they been trained in a specialized field say computer driven milling and lathing they could be now in Berlin where there is over 400 open positions for that skill set with English as a core requirement...why for export. English is de facto a needed skill set.
There is on the German job search sites in over 100 employment fields over 2000 plus open jobs where English is the primary skill being demanded on any given day.
Work is out there but one must be willing to move and adapt...that was the concept behind Schengen....and amazingly English is the common determinant.
Question is though is the older generation ready to pack up and move vs say the younger generation that sees no problem with doing that if necessary.
That was clearly seen in how the two generations voted...
Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-26-2016 at 08:49 AM.
The latent racism unleashed in this vote can in fact be directly connected to UKIP, BNP, Labour and the Conservatives AND a wide spectrum of the UK press.....
Am hearing that the Polish Centre in Hammersmith has been smeared with "Go Home". This is an unspeakable crime and is indescribably awful.
On Friday my niece was on a field trip. A man shouted at school girls: "So is this a **** Islam fishing group?! Where's the white people?"
One photo the UK citizens really need to revisit......
Polish immigrants in Britain... H/t @ingeniarius08
Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-26-2016 at 11:12 AM.
I would argue that immigration was a seriously used smokescreen BUT that this was a vote for and against globalization...ie the 18000 pound a year salary voted against and those of 30K voted for remaining in.....
The highest leave came from the low income areas vs areas with more income ....
Amazingly those that had a passport voted to remain and those that did not have one voted to leave...........
And naturally the youth vote went for and the over 65 went to leave....so there was a generational split as well...problematic was getting that youth vote out which failed badly and now they are complaining but have no one than themselves to blame.....
What broke the model was Scotland and N.Ireland which are basically low income but had a high view of the EU because I think they have played well the EU Rural and Low Income Development Fund and have well established and strong EU company employers in their regions..it is almost like they developed a European mindset say vs. Cornwall that gets a ton of EU funding but voted to get out.....which lacked an EU identify......
Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 07:05 PM.
The youth vote and those Labour voters
Outlaw09 in part:It helps to quantify the youth vote and from Twitter:And naturally the youth vote went for and the over 65 went to leave....so there was a generational split as well...problematic was getting that youth vote out which failed badly and now they are complaining but have no one than themselves to blame.....How traditional Labour seats voted:Those who say the elderly have "robbed" young people of their future might instead rebuke the 64% of 18-24yr-olds who didn't bother voting.
davidbfpo
Brexit & role disinformation by the British media (curved bananas etc), an analysis.
https://twitter.com/SpecGhost/status/746553046386229248 …
Shocking if true: Jeremy Corbyn Allies ‘Sabotaged’ Labour’s In EU ref Campaign, Critics Claim
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b0d2571149bb1f …
I would agree with David's rationale for leaving but also agree with Outlaw's view on the immigration file. Here is what I wrote elsewhere:
"The United Kingdom's immigration troubles are primarily the result of its post-war intake of Commonwealth citizens, its welcoming approach to migrants and refugees and its lack of immigration enforcement. Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech happened when Poland and Romania were still members of the CMEA and Warsaw Pact...
2001 to 2011 is a key period in UK immigration history. During that time, the number of Polish residents surged by some 10 times. However, in 2010, Eurostat observed that of the UK's 11.30% foreign-born residents, 68% were non-EU. In 2014, the UK's ONS observed that some 1.1 million UK foreign-born residents were from the "new" EU countries of Poland, Romania and Lithuania, compared to more than 2.1 million from the Commonwealth in South Asia and Africa, even decades after de-colonization. Yet the number of "new" EU residents is actually down 1/3 from its peak around 2004-2007. Moreover, between 2001 and 2011, the White population of the UK grew by 1.81%, compared to 75% for the non-White population (ONS). Lastly, the focus on the Poles is curious given that the UK actively recruited Polish laborers after both world wars.
This data tells us a few things:
1. There is emigration by White Britons from the UK (typically to Canada, Australia or New Zealand)
2. EU citizens from East-Central Europe are barely keeping up with the pace of emigration from the UK and have a tendency to return home or leave the UK based upon economic conditions
3. If non-British EU citizens were all expelled from the UK, the British population would actually have a much higher percentage of visible minorities
4. Not only are Asian and African Commonwealth citizens still arriving in the UK in large numbers, but they are more likely to stay than EU citizens, and continue to outnumber EU residents by 2:1
5. Brexit will not necessarily impact Commonwealth immigration or refugee policy
6. The EU has poorly handled the flow of non-EU migrants and refugees, but then again, the UK has accepted them in the past and continues to do so
7. As with Sweden and Germany, migrants are drawn to the UK not because of its EU membership but because of its lax policies and generous benefits which are national and not supranational in nature
8. Poland's economy is doing relatively well, yet Poland is refusing to settle more than a token number of refugees and is not attractive to the denizens of Calais' "jungle".."
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