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Thread: UK Declares Independence From The EU!

  1. #201
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Citing OUtlaw09's last post in part:
    WHAT is interesting is that the vote to leave was basically an "advisory vote" to Parliament as a Constitutional change vote would have required 2/3rds to vote for it and this is in fact a Constitutional change when 40 years worth of merged EU/UK laws and regulations must be changed back to UK standards.
    The UK does not have a constitution, so there is no law stating such a change needs a 2/3rds vote.

    In the 1979 referendum in Scotland:
    ..the referendum legislation also required 40% of the electorate to vote 'Yes' for the plans to be enacted and this was not achieved.
    Link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ish_devolution

    Yes there is a "mountain" of UK law and regulation that originated from the EU, but that is not a 'constitutional change' in waiting. None of that "mountain" refers to how the UK is governed.
    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    Citing OUtlaw09's last post in part:

    The UK does not have a constitution, so there is no law stating such a change needs a 2/3rds vote.

    In the 1979 referendum in Scotland:
    Link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ish_devolution

    Yes there is a "mountain" of UK law and regulation that originated from the EU, but that is not a 'constitutional change' in waiting. None of that "mountain" refers to how the UK is governed.
    David...beg seriously to differ....one of the main goals in order to join is to mesh the incoming countries laws.....criminal, financial, trade, yes even down to divorce and marriage rights and etc...to match those values set by the in order for the incoming nations legal system to be able to accept and carry out those decisions made by the ECJ and the ECHR ....

    That is the reason for the 36 Block/Step process in joining...meaning as each part of the new member's laws and regulations are matched and changed...then onto the next Block...

    WHY the idea was that say a mixed UK/Spanish marriage could be dissolved with the final decisions reflecting both Spanish and UK legal rights to protect the two individuals...down to portability of pensions and the acceptance of say pension earnings in one country being passed onto say the UK system and recognized in the UK and vice versa. e

    THERE are estimates of upwards of 15-17 years in order to have the UK "reverse/rewrite/detangle" that "mountain".....remember it took almost that long for the UK to finally catch the curve and come up to EU legal standards...

    AND yes the laws of the UK are in fact deeply meshed within EU laws and regulations....you will especially see that in the banking and finance sides of the UK...

    YES you do not have a "Constitution as such" but major changes to anything in the UK legal and political system can in fact be changed by a 2/3rds vote... it just has to be so stated on the ballot thus binding for Parliament MPs.....

    AND yes the leave vote was actually an advisory vote as it is not binding on Parliament as it is Parliament that has the final say not the PM nor the ruling party.

    Secondly, if you pay close attention to the current mess....you have voted in the last election for a ruling party and their PM...now the ruling party has "lost" that PM who was elected.... .. thus so has your original vote disappeared...now you have that same ruling party deciding over the heads of those that originally voted and putting a new PM into place with the so called holding to 2020 as the next election.

    So say a majority of the Tory/Labor if they crossed over voters do not like the choice...they are stuck and cannot say a thing until a sudden snap election...which ain't about to happen and the next scheduled vote is 2020.....

    By some terms this is a coup as the ballot of each individual was not honored with the selection of the new PM and know one knows exactly just what his/her program is other than leave and trigger Article 50.

    Then we see the constant sidestepping on the leave side saying well we will use the 52% as a leverage against the EU for a "better deal"...but the EU has openly stated....."you got the best deal before the vote" and that is now off the table.

    Are we in fact now seeing with the utter confusion inside the Tories and Labor a complete breakdown of "parliamentary democracy"....

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    David.......notice the Lords's own use of the word "constitution" throughout the 210 pages".....and their views on just what are referendums and how they impact Parliament's decisions. Interesting that this study was done in 2009/2010.....long before Leave....


    "The Select Committee on the Constitution" House of Lords.....

    http://www.publications.parliament.u...onst/99/99.pdf

    Titled "Referendums in the United Kingdom" 12th Session 2009/2010


    Many on the Leave side should have intently read this....well worth the reading of 210 pages of "legalese"...........

    One interesting comment the study noted was "while referendums maybe viewed as critical to change a particular situation...they may not in the end decisively resolve the situation for years to come'

    Sound like the results of the "leave vote"???

    Another interesting question they raised was....."where does the sovereignty actually lie.....within Parliament or with the People"???

    Second interesting point was and if one reads between the lines....the hundreds of years of a functioning Parliament has in fact built a substantial body of an unwritten "Constitution" and how does a referendum affect that body of an unwritten "Constitution". They often referred to things that needed to be decided in the absence of a "written Constitution"...

    This referendum was run under the concept and you heard it repeated literally for hours and days out of UK..."the People have spoken" but did they? As the current UK "sovereignty" still lies within Parliament.

    I can see it slowly coming....what if the SNP MPs pull out the devolution agreements tied to the EU as being the basis of an independence vote....WHAT they if they are joined by a large majority of MPs from both parties as many of them have not been for Leave and they vote to Remain over the heads of those that voted to Leave....using the argument they are defending the UK from great damage...

    Actually fully legal.....as the sovereignty of the UK lies within Parliament not the People....

    That is why there should have been the 2/3rds clause added to the ballot thus the referendum can be seen as "simply advisor in nature to Parliament.

    BTW...refer to Page 77
    "Referendums are one of the few ways in which under our "constitutional" settlement Acts of Parliament can be entrenched"..
    ..then continues on...quite interesting if one readings it correctly....

    WHY is it important "then referendums can be/must be able to be repealed by Parliament....."

    Notice the Leave camp never talked about this study did they....with good reason... I would not as well if I were them......
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-03-2016 at 01:47 PM.

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    Tax haven route won't work for post-Brexit UK, OECD says
    http://reut.rs/299tAeZ
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-03-2016 at 03:53 PM.

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    EU tells Switzerland: no single market access if no free movement of people. Clear warning to UK & Brexit fantasists http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...e_iOSApp_Other

    UK is not a unique problem. Look at Switzerland where a revolt v free movement + referendum have also led to a crisis in relations with EU

    BUT the Swiss need the access to single market as they share common borders and financial markets.....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-03-2016 at 06:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Everyone for themselves...."little Europe"....

    Our current cover story: Everyone for themselves – Little Europe: The return of the past
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1100852.html
    Reference the power struggle mentioned in the Spiegel article...

    Juncker faces his own exit as German Gov hints it could side with East European leaders who want EU commission president to go


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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    David.......notice the Lords's own use of the word "constitution" throughout the 210 pages".....and their views on just what are referendums and how they impact Parliament's decisions. Interesting that this study was done in 2009/2010.....long before Leave....


    "The Select Committee on the Constitution" House of Lords.....

    http://www.publications.parliament.u...onst/99/99.pdf

    Titled "Referendums in the United Kingdom" 12th Session 2009/2010


    Many on the Leave side should have intently read this....well worth the reading of 210 pages of "legalese"...........

    One interesting comment the study noted was "while referendums maybe viewed as critical to change a particular situation...they may not in the end decisively resolve the situation for years to come'

    Sound like the results of the "leave vote"???

    Another interesting question they raised was....."where does the sovereignty actually lie.....within Parliament or with the People"???

    Second interesting point was and if one reads between the lines....the hundreds of years of a functioning Parliament has in fact built a substantial body of an unwritten "Constitution" and how does a referendum affect that body of an unwritten "Constitution". They often referred to things that needed to be decided in the absence of a "written Constitution"...

    This referendum was run under the concept and you heard it repeated literally for hours and days out of UK..."the People have spoken" but did they? As the current UK "sovereignty" still lies within Parliament.

    I can see it slowly coming....what if the SNP MPs pull out the devolution agreements tied to the EU as being the basis of an independence vote....WHAT they if they are joined by a large majority of MPs from both parties as many of them have not been for Leave and they vote to Remain over the heads of those that voted to Leave....using the argument they are defending the UK from great damage...

    Actually fully legal.....as the sovereignty of the UK lies within Parliament not the People....

    That is why there should have been the 2/3rds clause added to the ballot thus the referendum can be seen as "simply advisor in nature to Parliament.

    BTW...refer to Page 77 ..then continues on...quite interesting if one readings it correctly....

    WHY is it important "then referendums can be/must be able to be repealed by Parliament....."

    Notice the Leave camp never talked about this study did they....with good reason... I would not as well if I were them......
    Leading London law firm Mischon de Reya is mounting a legal challenge: no Article 50 without parliamentary vote.

    Article 50 process on Brexit faces legal challenge to ensure parliamentary involvement

    Legal steps have been taken to ensure the UK Government will not trigger the procedure for withdrawal from the EU without an Act of Parliament. The case is being brought by leading law firm, Mishcon de Reya, on behalf of a group of clients. Following publication of articles on the subject this week Mishcon de Reya has retained Baron David Pannick QC and Tom Hickman to act as counsel in this action, along with Rhodri Thompson QC and Anneli Howard.

    The Referendum held on 23 June was an exercise to obtain the views of UK citizens, the majority of whom expressed a desire to leave the EU. But the decision to trigger Article 50 of the Treaty of European Union, the legal process for withdrawal from the EU, rests with the representatives of the people under the UK Constitution.

    The Government however, has suggested that it has sufficient legal authority. Mishcon de Reya has been in correspondence with the Government lawyers since 27 June 2016 on behalf of its clients to seek assurances that the Government will uphold the UK constitution and protect the sovereignty of Parliament in invoking Article 50.

    If the correct constitutional process of parliamentary scrutiny and approval is not followed then the notice to withdraw from the EU would be unlawful, negatively impacting the withdrawal negotiations and our future political and economic relationships with the EU and its 27 Member States, and open to legal challenge. This legal action seeks to ensure that the Article 50 notification process is lawful.

    Kasra Nouroozi, Partner, Mishcon de Reya said:

    “We must ensure that the Government follows the correct process to have legal certainty and protect the UK Constitution and the sovereignty of Parliament in these unprecedented circumstances. The result of the Referendum is not in doubt, but we need a process that follows UK law to enact it. The outcome of the Referendum itself is not legally binding and for the current or future Prime Minister to invoke Article 50 without the approval of Parliament is unlawful.”

    “We must make sure this is done properly for the benefit of all UK citizens. Article 50 simply cannot be invoked without a full debate and vote in Parliament. Everyone in Britain needs the Government to apply the correct constitutional process and allow Parliament to fulfil its democratic duty which is to take into account the results of the Referendum along with other factors and make the ultimate decision.”

    Anyone wishing to support the action to ensure that the UK Constitution is upheld in this process should email Article50@Mishcon.com.
    If the "Government" had read their own House of Lords research on the question of referendums...."the Government" would not be stating "we have sufficient legal authority" to move on their own without the sovereign approval of Parliament......

    The last time I checked no UK political party nor their PM is higher than the Act of Parliament......

    In some countries of this world that move by the "Government" against the acknowledged historical "sovereignty" might in fact be called a "coup" using the term "democracy".
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-03-2016 at 06:28 PM.

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    Independent Scotland joining EU could be part of Brexit "package deal"
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...t_/?ref=twtrec

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    People find it popular to follow populist parties until they are elected.......

    There is a great resemblance between those that vote of the UKIP and Trump these days.....

    This was at least the fifth time Trump had tweeted a white supremacist meme. Channeling his core constituency.
    http://wapo.st/29c9EwO

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    Somehow you just cannot make this up as no one would believe it.......

    Leave beats the drums to leave EU...THEN wins barely with a low turn out and then Boris Johnson the main Tory pusher of Leave does not want the PM position, BUT wants Article 50 triggered.......THEN Cameron quits as PM......THEN the Labor party is on the verge of falling into two parties...THEN the Tories are not much better off with 4/5 individuals wanting to be the next PM without an election....THEN a UK Law Firm is taking the Tory Government into Court for possibly violating the Act of Parliament THEN this today......

    More rats are leaving the sinking ship after #Brexit
    Nigel Farage resigns as UKIP leader


    Meets Rupert Murdoch on Sunday, resigns on Monday morning.

    BUT WAIT.....Murdoch supports Gove....for Tory PM.....after dropping support for Boris Johnson...

    SI after crowing in the EU Parliament about his "win" and he is taking UK out of the EU...THEN this statement today.

    BUT WAIT did he give up his paid UKIP MEP position in Brussels..seriously doubt it...

    Does anyone have any idea what the Brits are up to and or really want...???
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-04-2016 at 11:02 AM.

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    Brexit, Czexit? Key Putin ally at heart of EU calls for Czech referendum on EU an NATO membership
    https://www.neweurope.eu/article/czexit-could-be-next/

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Somehow you just cannot make this up as no one would believe it.......

    Leave beats the drums to leave EU...THEN wins barely with a low turn out and then Boris Johnson the main Tory pusher of Leave does not want the PM position, BUT wants Article 50 triggered.......THEN Cameron quits as PM......THEN the Labor party is on the verge of falling into two parties...THEN the Tories are not much better off with 4/5 individuals wanting to be the next PM without an election....THEN a UK Law Firm is taking the Tory Government into Court for possibly violating the Act of Parliament THEN this today......

    More rats are leaving the sinking ship after #Brexit
    Nigel Farage resigns as UKIP leader


    Meets Rupert Murdoch on Sunday, resigns on Monday morning.

    BUT WAIT.....Murdoch supports Gove....for Tory PM.....after dropping support for Boris Johnson...

    SI after crowing in the EU Parliament about his "win" and he is taking UK out of the EU...THEN this statement today.

    BUT WAIT did he give up his paid UKIP MEP position in Brussels..seriously doubt it...

    Does anyone have any idea what the Brits are up to and or really want...???
    For those of you who weren't paying attention. Here's where Aaron Banks announced Farage was resigning, 5 days ago.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...without-farage

    Was previously posted here in this thread.....they want to create a "voter friendly" alternative to Labor and see a chance to take Labor votes away.....thus cannot be seen as far rightist and or anti racist......

  13. #213
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    EU Support Surges in Denmark as Brexit Scare Spreads in Nordics, according to Bloomberg.

    Denmark became the latest Nordic country to experience rising public support for the European Union, defying predictions that a U.K. vote to exit would inspire other euro-skeptic corners of the bloc.

    According to a Voxmeter poll published by Ritzau on Monday, 69 percent of Danes now back EU membership, up from 59.8 percent in a poll held prior to the U.K. vote. The poll also found that the proportion of respondents wanting a U.K.-style referendum had fallen to 32 percent from 40.7 percent.
    I'm not surprised by those developments in Denmark as the political outfall in the UK was heavy and the negative economic consequences were strongly highlighted in Italian media. A surprisingly large space was giving to hate crimes against foreigners, in some cases through Italian citiziens living in the UK. If Danish reporting was similar it will have pushed EU support.

    Who knows how this will influence the negotiations. On one hand their might less need for the EU to be harsh to avoid the dominio effect, on the other it might be deduced that a hard and principled EU approach is signaling properly and is thus working.
    Last edited by Firn; 07-04-2016 at 03:31 PM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

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    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1F...w?pref=2&pli=1

    Parties fail to feed the public’s hunger for a solution

    With the Tories and Labour spinning away to the extremes, millions have nowhere to go with their views and their votes

    Paddy Ashdown

    The Sunday Times 3 July 2016

    A medieval bishop had the following prayer: “Lord, things are serious. This time please come yourself, this is no job for a boy.”

    A people’s revolution lays waste to all previous European certainties. The sound of the tumbrils echoes round Westminster. One of the two party leaders of state has been beheaded and the other is being led to the gallows by his mutinous captains. Les Misérables march on Westminster behind a bunch of squabbling would-be leaders, who, beyond Brexit, agree on nothing and hate each other with a passion.

    This is one of those revolutions that will end up devouring its children — as well as many innocent others along the way. What on earth that is good can be dragged out of this unholy mess? Actually there is something, if we on the modern progressive wing of politics now play our Cards cannily.

    First a bit of analysis, then a short proposition.

    Many of the great changes in British politics did not come through political parties, but through people’s movements that reshaped political parties. Think of the huge public meetings in Manchester that led to the Great Reform Act; think of the trades union movement, which gave birth to Labour; think of the suffragettes, think of the gay rights movement; think potentially of last Thursday, which looks as though it will now break both the Tories and Labour.

    The new phenomenon of our time is the populist reverse takeover of political parties. Donald Trump did it to the Republicans, the hard left did it to Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party and the Brexiteers are about to do it to the Tories.

    At one level all this is healthy and natural. Given the retreat of our political classes from the battleground of principle to the politics of managerialism, given the disconnect that has grown up between politics and people, some kind of convulsion was inevitable. But why does it always have to be a convulsion for something more ugly, more divisive, more xenophobic and more dangerous? Why is there never a convulsion for something better instead?

    One big recent event points to the possibility of a movement for better things, rather than worse ones. The huge public outcry that erupted after the killing of Labour MP Jo Cox last month seemed to hint that what people felt was murdered that day was not just a remarkable person, but also their own cherished ideas and values.

    The present 4m-strong petition for another referendum may not succeed. But it is a powerful expression of public hunger, beyond political parties, to find a way to fix the mess they think (me, too) we have created for ourselves.

    And so we have arrived at a most intriguing situation. The two great parties-of-state that have dominated our politics for a hundred years are no longer able to contain the opinions within them. With both spinning away to the extremes, what happens to the homeless millions — in politics and outside — who now have nowhere to go with their views and their votes? There are my wonderful Liberal Democrats, of course.

    But we were set back hugely at the last election and it will take time to get back where we were — and the next general election may only be months away. One of the barriers standing in the way of something more sensible is the political party itself. Look at a business model that does not take into account new technologies and you see a model that is on its way to failure. Though all our parties enthusiastically use the new technologies to communicate with the electorate, none uses them either in their internal structures or proposes them in the external practices of our politics.

    The result is that engagement in political parties remains the preserve of the fanatic — and in the case of the Tories, supplemented by the geriatric. The Lib Dems don’t do fanatic, more’s the pity.

    The political party and the political movement have become separated. We need to bring them back together again by widening access and lowering the cost of engagement. One model is the Five Star movement in Italy (but not its politics): internet-based, low membership fee, much more direct democracy. There are dangers here, not least of entryism and takeovers. But are they really less than the dangers of the organisational collapse of political parties that have become little more than clubs for the few, instead of voices for the many?

    And while we are on the subject of new technologies, is there anything more
    ridiculous than modern men and women doing their tax returns online, managing their bank accounts online and arranging to see their doctor online, but having to struggle through the wind and rain to a damp church hall to cast their votes with a stubby pencil by scratching a cross on a scrap of paper?

    I am not suggesting that all political parties follow the Five Star model, and I am not suggesting forming one either. We’ll have to make do with what we have for the moment. But what about creating a space where those from any party and anyone who holds modern progressive views — those epitomised by Jo Cox — can gather to find the means to defend what is decent and call for something better than the politics of extremism and xenophobia? It would only be a start.

    But with a general election perhaps soon, who knows where a start could lead . . . We would have to put aside the instinct in troubled times to seek refuge in the bosom of our own tribes. But is that such a price to pay when, in the words of Jo Cox, there is so much more that unites us than divides us?

    Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon is a former leader of the Liberal Democrats

    Ben Judah @b_judah
    I can confirm that the Ashdown plan is significantly advanced: money has been raised
    .
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1F...NZVHl1QW8/view

    Ben Judah @b_judah
    Labour Left nightmare: the media oligarchs pump-up a new splinter party, awash with funding from City, which has got hold of Labour brand.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-04-2016 at 06:12 PM.

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    Hammond 'We could have an informal discussion with European Union countries next week and we could perhaps come to an "understanding"

    Well, we could, had this not been flat out rejected by all our former EU partners.

    Standard Life suspends trading in its UK property fund after Brexit vote

    Ben Judah ‏@b_judah

    “The potential Brexit impact for the City of London is that up to 69 per cent of its interest rate derivatives market could move to EU."

    Due to a lack of trade negotiators, Brexit Britain will need to hire immigrants for the job
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-04-2016 at 06:27 PM.

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    Ben Judah
    ‏@b_judah
    Talk of a new party is mounting amongst Labour MPs.




    July 4 2016, 5:00pm, The Times

    As Labour splits, a new party is emerging
    Rachel Sylvester

    Three months ago the idea of a fresh political group was seen as foolish. Now the tectonic plates are beginning to move


    Like the Fisher King in TS Eliot’s poem The Waste Land, Jeremy Corbyn presides over the Labour Party, impotent and unable to perform his task, while behind him his kingdom turns into an “arid plain”. “I was neither living nor dead, and I knew nothing,” says another voice in the poem. This Labour ordeal cannot — and will not — go on.

    Yesterday, the leader posted a video message for members urging the party to “come together now”, but the mood of the moderates is hardening. The Unite union leader Len McCluskey may describe Mr Corbyn as a “man of…
    Behind paywall........

    Tom Watson told PLP he's meeting trade union leaders tomorrow over Corbyn as "a last throw of the dice".

    Tom Watson had one-on-one meeting with Corbyn this morning. Corbyn made it clear he wasn't resigning.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-04-2016 at 06:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Leading London law firm Mischon de Reya is mounting a legal challenge: no Article 50 without parliamentary vote.

    Article 50 process on Brexit faces legal challenge to ensure parliamentary involvement



    If the "Government" had read their own House of Lords research on the question of referendums...."the Government" would not be stating "we have sufficient legal authority" to move on their own without the sovereign approval of Parliament......

    The last time I checked no UK political party nor their PM is higher than the Act of Parliament......

    In some countries of this world that move by the "Government" against the acknowledged historical "sovereignty" might in fact be called a "coup" using the term "democracy".
    Those who campaigned Leave for parliamentary sovereignty are now unhappy at prospect of parliament being sovereign about whether to Leave.

    Increasingly looks like that if Leavers want Brexit they are going to have to now do it the old fashioned way, with a parliamentary majority

    Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham

    We have assembled a team of three leading QCs and four leading Juniors to address different legal aspects of the Brexit decision.

    Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham

    We are also identifying prospective claimants including an MP, a representative of business, and a Regrexiter. Full statement tomorrow.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-04-2016 at 06:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post
    EU Support Surges in Denmark as Brexit Scare Spreads in Nordics, according to Bloomberg.



    I'm not surprised by those developments in Denmark as the political outfall in the UK was heavy and the negative economic consequences were strongly highlighted in Italian media. A surprisingly large space was giving to hate crimes against foreigners, in some cases through Italian citiziens living in the UK. If Danish reporting was similar it will have pushed EU support.

    Who knows how this will influence the negotiations. On one hand their might less need for the EU to be harsh to avoid the dominio effect, on the other it might be deduced that a hard and principled EU approach is signaling properly and is thus working.
    Firn,

    BREXIT may be the first step in reforming the EU. These reforms are desperately needed, individual countries need to be able to act independently (this is what sovereignty is all about). I'm not overly concerned, a thousand tweets claiming the sky is falling won't change that. There is also a chance this will make NATO stronger. The excessive political collectivism mandated by the EU makes Europe easier for Russia to manipulate.

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    Default Brexit vote makes united Ireland suddenly thinkable

    Rev. Ian Paisley turn in his grave.

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0ZJ0E6

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    'Not on the same page': Brexit poses threat to British universities
    http://reut.rs/29hk13X
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-04-2016 at 06:55 PM.

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