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Thread: UK Declares Independence From The EU!

  1. #21
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    Shocking if true: Jeremy Corbyn Allies ‘Sabotaged’ Labour’s In EU ref Campaign, Critics Claim
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b0d2571149bb1f

  2. #22
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    1st time in UK history: PM won't be chosen by gen'l election or MPs but by party activists
    http://www.businessinsider.com/david...16-6?r=UK&IR=T

    So UK leaves and kneecapped themselves now a internal party coup.....a new PM with new election.
    1st time in UK history: PM won't be chosen by gen'l election or MPs but by party activists
    http://www.businessinsider.com/david...16-6?r=UK&IR=T

    Well this is pretty huge. Kezia Dugdale says Scottish Labour "will consider all options" going forward ie support for independence.

    Brexit: a surge in inquiries about Irish passports from people in London who want to remain citizens of EU country.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 07:20 PM.

  3. #23
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    This UK MSM pushed the Leave hard and then this.......

    Cards reading 'go home scum' are 'posted through Polish doors'
    http://dailym.ai/28TWvsk via @MailOnline

    BUT WAIT...I thought Polish pilots flew with the Brits over England in WW2......

    Welsh Muslim told 'pack bags, go home' after campaigning for Remain #Brexit Via @astroehlein
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7101491.html

    Just seen a van full of blokes drive past young Muslim girls shouting from the window "Out Out Out!" Horrible. #Brockley #London

    “Boris Johnson didn’t think that they’d win” @Anna_Soubry tells @krishgm what she thinks was behind Boris's campaign
    https://youtu.be/ERHfuzyic8M
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 07:38 PM.

  4. #24
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    Scathing critique of the gap between what Vote Leave promised and what they will actually do. #EUref
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...P=share_btn_tw

    Saturday 25 June 2016 18.05 BST Last modified on Saturday 25 June 2016 18.27 BST

    Where was the champagne at the Vote Leave headquarters? The happy tears and whoops of joy? If you believed Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, the Brexit vote was a moment of national liberation, a day that Nigel Farage said our grateful children would celebrate with an annual bank holiday.

    Johnson and Gove had every reason to celebrate. The referendum campaign showed the only arguments that matter now in England are on the right. With the Labour leadership absent without leave and the Liberal Democrats and Greens struggling to be heard, the debate was between David Cameron and George Osborne, defending the status quo, and the radical right, demanding its destruction. Johnson and Gove won a dizzying victory with the potential to change every aspect of national life, from workers’ rights to environmental protection.

    Yet they gazed at the press with coffin-lid faces and wept over the prime minister they had destroyed. David Cameron was “brave and principled”, intoned Johnson. “A great prime minister”, muttered Gove. Like Goneril and Regan competing to offer false compliments to Lear, they covered the leader they had doomed with hypocritical praise. No one whoops at a funeral, especially not mourners who are glad to see the back of the deceased. But I saw something beyond hypocrisy in those frozen faces: the fear of journalists who have been found out.

    The media do not damn themselves, so I am speaking out of turn when I say that if you think rule by professional politicians is bad wait until journalist politicians take over. Johnson and Gove are the worst journalist politicians you can imagine: pundits who have prospered by treating public life as a game. Here is how they play it. They grab media attention by blaring out a big, dramatic thought. An institution is failing? Close it. A public figure blunders? Sack him. They move from journalism to politics, but carry on as before. When presented with a bureaucratic EU that sends us too many immigrants, they say the answer is simple, as media answers must be. Leave. Now. Then all will be well.

    Boris Johnson. Liar, conman – and prime minister?

    Johnson and Gove carried with them a second feature of unscrupulous journalism: the contempt for practical questions. Never has a revolution in Britain’s position in the world been advocated with such carelessness. The Leave campaign has no plan. And that is not just because there was a shamefully under-explored division between the bulk of Brexit voters who wanted the strong welfare state and solid communities of their youth and the leaders of the campaign who wanted Britain to become an offshore tax haven. Vote Leave did not know how to resolve difficulties with Scotland, Ireland, the refugee camp at Calais, and a thousand other problems, and did not want to know either.

    It responded to all who predicted the chaos now engulfing us like an unscrupulous pundit who knows that his living depends on shutting up the experts who gainsay him. For why put the pundit on air, why pay him a penny, if experts can show that everything he says is windy nonsense? The worst journalists, editors and broadcasters know their audiences want entertainment, not expertise. If you doubt me, ask when you last saw panellists on Question Time who knew what they were talking about.

    Naturally, Michael Gove, former Times columnist, responded to the thousands of economists who warned he was taking an extraordinary risk with the sneer that will follow him to his grave: “People in this country have had enough of experts.” He’s being saying the same for years.

    If sneers won’t work, the worst journalists lie. The Times fired Johnson for lying to its readers. Michael Howard fired Johnson for lying to him. When he’s cornered, Johnson accuses others of his own vices, as unscrupulous journalists always do. Those who question him are the true liars, he blusters, whose testimony cannot be trusted because, as he falsely said of the impeccably honest chairman of the UK Statistics Authority, they are “stooges”.

    The Vote Leave campaign followed the tactics of the sleazy columnist to the letter. First, it came out with the big, bold solution: leave. Then it dismissed all who raised well-founded worries with “the country is sick of experts”. Then, like Johnson the journalist, it lied.

    On Friday, Johnson and Dan Hannan said that in all probability the number of foreigners coming here won’t fall

    I am not going to be over-dainty about mendacity. Politicians, including Remain politicians lie, as do the rest of us. But not since Suez has the nation’s fate been decided by politicians who knowingly made a straight, shameless, incontrovertible lie the first plank of their campaign. Vote Leave assured the electorate it would reclaim a supposed £350m Brussels takes from us each week. They knew it was a lie. Between them, they promised to spend £111bn on the NHS, cuts to VAT and council tax, higher pensions, a better transport system and replacements for the EU subsidies to the arts, science, farmers and deprived regions. When boring experts said that, far from being rich, we would face a £40bn hole in our public finances, Vote Leave knew how to fight back. In Johnsonian fashion, it said that the truth tellers were corrupt liars in Brussels’ pocket.

    Now they have won and what Kipling said of the demagogues of his age applies to Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

    I could not dig; I dared not rob:
    Therefore I lied to please the mob.
    Now all my lies are proved untrue
    And I must face the men I slew.
    What tale shall serve me here among
    Mine angry and defrauded young?

    The real division in Britain is not between London and the north, Scotland and Wales or the old and young, but between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded. What tale will serve them now? On Thursday, they won by promising cuts in immigration. On Friday, Johnson and the Eurosceptic ideologue Dan Hannan said that in all probability the number of foreigners coming here won’t fall. On Thursday, they promised the economy would boom. By Friday, the pound was at a 30-year low and Daily Mail readers holidaying abroad were learning not to believe what they read in the papers. On Thursday, they promised £350m extra a week for the NHS. On Friday, it turns out there are “no guarantees”.

    If we could only find a halfway competent opposition, the very populist forces they have exploited and misled so grievously would turn on them. The fear in their eyes shows that they know it.
    Wes Streeting MP
    ✔ @wesstreeting I asked the Government what preparations were being made for Brexit. Was told: none. I am shocked that this now appears to be true

    "The Times fired Johnson for lying to its readers. Michael Howard fired Johnson for lying to him."
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 08:00 PM.

  5. #25
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    I would agree with David's rationale for leaving but also agree with Outlaw's view on the immigration file. Here is what I wrote elsewhere:

    "The United Kingdom's immigration troubles are primarily the result of its post-war intake of Commonwealth citizens, its welcoming approach to migrants and refugees and its lack of immigration enforcement. Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech happened when Poland and Romania were still members of the CMEA and Warsaw Pact...

    2001 to 2011 is a key period in UK immigration history. During that time, the number of Polish residents surged by some 10 times. However, in 2010, Eurostat observed that of the UK's 11.30% foreign-born residents, 68% were non-EU. In 2014, the UK's ONS observed that some 1.1 million UK foreign-born residents were from the "new" EU countries of Poland, Romania and Lithuania, compared to more than 2.1 million from the Commonwealth in South Asia and Africa, even decades after de-colonization. Yet the number of "new" EU residents is actually down 1/3 from its peak around 2004-2007. Moreover, between 2001 and 2011, the White population of the UK grew by 1.81%, compared to 75% for the non-White population (ONS). Lastly, the focus on the Poles is curious given that the UK actively recruited Polish laborers after both world wars.

    This data tells us a few things:

    1. There is emigration by White Britons from the UK (typically to Canada, Australia or New Zealand)

    2. EU citizens from East-Central Europe are barely keeping up with the pace of emigration from the UK and have a tendency to return home or leave the UK based upon economic conditions

    3. If non-British EU citizens were all expelled from the UK, the British population would actually have a much higher percentage of visible minorities

    4. Not only are Asian and African Commonwealth citizens still arriving in the UK in large numbers, but they are more likely to stay than EU citizens, and continue to outnumber EU residents by 2:1

    5. Brexit will not necessarily impact Commonwealth immigration or refugee policy

    6. The EU has poorly handled the flow of non-EU migrants and refugees, but then again, the UK has accepted them in the past and continues to do so

    7. As with Sweden and Germany, migrants are drawn to the UK not because of its EU membership but because of its lax policies and generous benefits which are national and not supranational in nature

    8. Poland's economy is doing relatively well, yet Poland is refusing to settle more than a token number of refugees and is not attractive to the denizens of Calais' "jungle".."

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    The mayor of Calais already demanding the scrapping of the agreement that keeps migrants in Calais rather than Dover. Well, we were warned.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-25-2016 at 08:14 PM.

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    Really really really worth reading.......

    Important by @CER_Grant on how unscrupulous Leave outmanoeuvred somewhat confused Leave. He said it before the vote
    . https://www.cer.org.uk/insights/how-...battle-five-ms

    Explains a lot of what I have been posting here.......
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 06-26-2016 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Replace defunct link with one that works

  8. #28
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    Citing Azor in one tiny part:
    There is emigration by White Britons from the UK (typically to Canada, Australia or New Zealand)
    There has been a steady exit for many years now of white Britons, usually those with a ready skill needed abroad. A smaller number of ethnic minority Britons have gone too. Most simply see elsewhere as offering better life chances.

    Their destinations are far wider than the 'old' Commonwealth, although some pass the entry procedures. For example 200-250k Brits reside in the Gulf states. Considerable number of English teachers are scattered across the world. Of the two million UK citizens living in the EU (cited this week), one million are working.
    davidbfpo

  9. #29
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    Default Who voted and why plus

    Many of the recent press reporting is based on Lord Ashcroft's polling, which starts with IMHO a very small sample size:
    The UK has voted to leave the European Union. On referendum day I surveyed 12,369 people after they had voted to help explain the result – who voted for which outcome, and what lay behind their decision.
    Link with far more:http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/
    davidbfpo

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    A cri de coeur from one of those young, highly educated voters who represent Progress and so deserved to win:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/op...tons.html?_r=0

  11. #31
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    Everybody has obviously his opinion and his vote and who I am to not respect the specific decision. What bothers me greatly is:

    1. Lies, yes lies, played such an important part for the Leave campaigns concerning the economic consequences.

    As an Italian I'm used to that, we elected Mr. Lie four times, but it is always tough to stomach them.

    2. The Irish questions was hardly if at all mentioned or debated

    It's great that peace made the latter less urgent but to me that is rather telling that as in many other cases the good of the EU membership was just mentally skipped. The Irish Times article aptly describes part of the problem, while in the podcast some of importance of the EU in the peace process was underlined.

    3. The risk of Scotland leaving the UK was rarely discussed by the Leave campaign, which is in itself quite ironic.

    There is no doubt that this decision does increase it's probability. As we speak the SNP prepares for a second referendum and wants talks with the EU. Why was this effect hardly discussed in the media?

    P.S: The last graph with 'Leave' 7 out of 10 on the side of 'don't think the vote mattered much' is deeply disturbing, especially when compared to 1 in 4 of 'Remain'. Of course the expectations impacts that a lot but it meshes to some degree with a good amount of people deciding to give the gov a kick.

    P.P.S: VOXEU has lots of good takes on the economic effects and UK economic history. Keep in mind that Britain entered the European comunity after slipping from the richest economy to under-average performer. Within it the UK recovered and reversed economic course.
    Last edited by Firn; 06-26-2016 at 05:31 AM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    Citing Outlaw09 in part:

    The Schengen Zone enables cross-border travel without producing a passport (or other accepted ID). The UK opted out of the Schengen Agreement (along with Ireland IRRC) and requires EU nationals produce a passport upon arrival - I'd call that free movement with a condition.

    The UK in theory can refuse entry, but I understand that is rarely exercised. It can also deport EU nationals on limited grounds.
    David....I keep going back to the simple fact immigration is the smokescreen used by UKIP, the BNP and yes even the Conservatives in the form of Boris the "terrible"....

    BUT in the end it is all about globalization......there was a comment recently that stated "markets do not know what a nation state is"...and if one thinks really long and hard..it is all about globalization.....

    You comments on the auto factory workers is exactly that is being seen by the US autoworkers and yes I hate to say this but also seen in the GDR as early as 1989/1990---in my eyes "globalization" has been on a subtle move for a lot longer than we give it credit....

    Reference Schengen.....the 300K or so Polish people residing in UK is balanced by how many Brits working, studying, touring, living on pensions in the rest of the EU.....more than outweighs the estimated 3M EU workers currently inside UK.

    Just look at the sheer numbers of Brits currently living and working for the EU and Brit companies in say Brussels..just check hoe many evening flights there are between Brussels and London for the Brit commuter.

    An interesting point was made last night that the majority voters for Leave when looking at education had little to no education levels and those that had a higher education level voted for Remain.

    Education of the working class and or the non education of the working class goes to the heart of globalization if one is serious about a discussion on it.

    Take as the example your auto workers now working in a warehouse...had they been trained in a specialized field say computer driven milling and lathing they could be now in Berlin where there is over 400 open positions for that skill set with English as a core requirement...why for export. English is de facto a needed skill set.

    There is on the German job search sites in over 100 employment fields over 2000 plus open jobs where English is the primary skill being demanded on any given day.

    Work is out there but one must be willing to move and adapt...that was the concept behind Schengen....and amazingly English is the common determinant.

    Question is though is the older generation ready to pack up and move vs say the younger generation that sees no problem with doing that if necessary.

    That was clearly seen in how the two generations voted...
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-26-2016 at 08:49 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post
    Everybody has obviously his opinion and his vote and who I am to not respect the specific decision. What bothers me greatly is:

    1. Lies, yes lies, played such an important part for the Leave campaigns concerning the economic consequences.

    As an Italian I'm used to that, we elected Mr. Lie four times, but it is always tough to stomach them.

    2. The Irish questions was hardly if at all mentioned or debated

    It's great that peace made the latter less urgent but to me that is rather telling that as in many other cases the good of the EU membership was just mentally skipped. The Irish Times article aptly describes part of the problem, while in the podcast some of importance of the EU in the peace process was underlined.

    3. The risk of Scotland leaving the UK was rarely discussed by the Leave campaign, which is in itself quite ironic.

    There is no doubt that this decision does increase it's probability. As we speak the SNP prepares for a second referendum and wants talks with the EU. Why was this effect hardly discussed in the media?

    P.S: The last graph with 'Leave' 7 out of 10 on the side of 'don't think the vote mattered much' is deeply disturbing, especially when compared to 1 in 4 of 'Remain'. Of course the expectations impacts that a lot but it meshes to some degree with a good amount of people deciding to give the gov a kick.

    P.P.S: VOXEU has lots of good takes on the economic effects and UK economic history. Keep in mind that Britain entered the European comunity after slipping from the richest economy to under-average performer. Within it the UK recovered and reversed economic course.
    Firn...the use of disinformation in this vote was amazingly similar to that currently used by Russia and Putin....and that was and still is even in this morning in the UK somehow not being discussed.

    Social media open source analysis caught the similarity literally months ago but somehow they were not even looked at by UK MSM....even down to pointing who was driving it and their messaging/narratives....

    Why was it being ignored....it was coming from major UK MSM itself....the question is why and how was it paid for it and where did the money come from ie from which writers and their ties to whom????

    Disinformation is a powerful voice inside a "populist movement"....just look at Trump....

  14. #34
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    Tory Party heading for irrevocable split. Labour Party in meltdown. Scotland sprinting for the exit. N.Ireland is a question.

    And the Pound and FTSE again tomorrow.....??

    This is all going very well so far.

    But hey at least we voted for democratic chaos....

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    Russian non linear warfare is now hard at work......

    Russian TV propaganda spreads lies: "Finland thinks to exit from EU"
    https://twitter.com/rentvchannel/sta...85835471745028

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    David....I keep going back to the simple fact immigration is the smokescreen used by UKIP, the BNP and yes even the Conservatives in the form of Boris the "terrible"....

    BUT in the end it is all about globalization......there was a comment recently that stated "markets do not know what a nation state is"...and if one thinks really long and hard..it is all about globalization.....

    You comments on the auto factory workers is exactly that is being seen by the US autoworkers and yes I hate to say this but also seen in the GDR as early as 1989/1990---in my eyes "globalization" has been on a subtle move for a lot longer than we give it credit....

    Reference Schengen.....the 300K or so Polish people residing in UK is balanced by how many Brits working, studying, touring, living on pensions in the rest of the EU.....more than outweighs the estimated 3M EU workers currently inside UK.

    Just look at the sheer numbers of Brits currently living and working for the EU and Brit companies in say Brussels..just check hoe many evening flights there are between Brussels and London for the Brit commuter.

    An interesting point was made last night that the majority voters for Leave when looking at education had little to no education levels and those that had a higher education level voted for Remain.

    Education of the working class and or the non education of the working class goes to the heart of globalization if one is serious about a discussion on it.

    Take as the example your auto workers now working in a warehouse...had they been trained in a specialized field say computer driven milling and lathing they could be now in Berlin where there is over 400 open positions for that skill set with English as a core requirement...why for export. English is de facto a needed skill set.

    There is on the German job search sites in over 100 employment fields over 2000 plus open jobs where English is the primary skill being demanded on any given day.

    Work is out there but one must be willing to move and adapt...that was the concept behind Schengen....and amazingly English is the common determinant.

    Question is though is the older generation ready to pack up and move vs say the younger generation that sees no problem with doing that if necessary.

    That was clearly seen in how the two generations voted...
    The latent racism unleashed in this vote can in fact be directly connected to UKIP, BNP, Labour and the Conservatives AND a wide spectrum of the UK press.....

    Am hearing that the Polish Centre in Hammersmith has been smeared with "Go Home". This is an unspeakable crime and is indescribably awful.
    On Friday my niece was on a field trip. A man shouted at school girls: "So is this a **** Islam fishing group?! Where's the white people?"

    One photo the UK citizens really need to revisit......
    Polish immigrants in Britain... H/t @ingeniarius08
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-26-2016 at 11:12 AM.

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    UKIP leader is now seriously running from his own statements and their very own PR buses that had this splashed all over them...and what he stated in hsi speeches....

    Nigel Farage: "Nobody said that we'd spend the £350million a week on the NHS"

    One of those plastered campaign posters from UKIP.......

    "Let's give our NHS 350M Pounds that we give EU weekly"

    Sounds like a commitment to me.......

    So was he lying or telling the truth and yet he claims to speak for UK....

  18. #38
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    Posted this yesterday and it is firming up as a valid Scottish political move as the EU was buried in the Good Friday agreements as it was buried inside the Scottish and Walsh devolution agreements....appears that all three have actually a veto voice in Parliament as the EU membership was the assumed basis for all their agreements.......

    Appears Boris the "terrible", UKIP, BNP. Labour and especially Cameron simply forgot to check their own agreements.....

    Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon says Holyrood could effectively block UK's exit from the EU by vetoing it
    http://bbc.in/29bGdrJ

    Tend to believe the Scots definitely got UK constitutional advice before they went public with this.....

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    The #EU will treat Britain like Greece. A superb post mortem by @mattholehouse in @Telegraph #Brexit http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...n-like-greece/

    PROBABLY one of the best takes on the EU views towards UK and the EU comin actions which will be brutal for UK that I have seen written in the last few days AND it does not bode well for UK citizens nor their economy nor they standing in the world of global politics of which they have actually thrown themselves out of....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-26-2016 at 11:03 AM.

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    BBC News - Corbyn office 'sabotaged' EU Remain campaign - sources
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36633238

    This does not surprise me in the least as he was first against the EU and then lukewarm for the EU BUT foremost he is a old line UK leftist who basically out of ideological reasons has always been against the EU....

    Many openly questioned his actions during the campaign but no one wanted to actually say then that he in fact was sabotaging his own words and actions....

    If one looks at the way Putin has been playing the right and left segments of the EU ever since 2006 with money and info warfare help...Putin has been driving Eurospectic groups from both political spectrums to achieve exactly what this vote achieved and it did not cost him a war and or a single bullet.....it was done legally and democratically.....the destruction of the EU as a viable economic and political entity

    Allowing Russia to fulfill it's dream of an free trade economic zone from Portugal to Russian Far East....under Russian influence.....openly stated also since 2006...only the EU stood in the way backed by the US.....
    .....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 06-26-2016 at 11:10 AM.

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