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    Default Western Betrayal Redux?

    To be fair, Outlaw has been on this since Minsk I...

    According to Vladimir Socor at the Jamestown Foundation:

    1. http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...c#.V4QgWlYrKUk
    2. http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...4#.V4QgXFYrKUk



    • “Quietly but summarily, the administration of President Obama has informed Kyiv that it wants to see elections in Donbas before Obama leaves office”
    • Nuland is urging compliance with Ukraine’s political “obligations” under the Minsk “agreement.”
    • Kerry and Nuland’s joint visit on July 7, however, has added urgency and even impatience to Kerry’s tone, reflecting the Barack Obama administration’s rush to show results before the November presidential election in the United States
    • By the logic and sequence of steps proposed, Ukraine would make pre-emptive, irreversible sacrifices of sovereignty, without any assurance that Russian forces would withdraw or that the two armed “people’s republics” would abdicate. Almost certainly they would not.
    • The West may help Russia enforce those political provisions on Ukraine, but the same Western powers cannot help Ukraine enforce those military provisions on Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    To be fair, Outlaw has been on this since Minsk I...

    According to Vladimir Socor at the Jamestown Foundation:

    1. http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...c#.V4QgWlYrKUk
    2. http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...4#.V4QgXFYrKUk



    • “Quietly but summarily, the administration of President Obama has informed Kyiv that it wants to see elections in Donbas before Obama leaves office”
    • Nuland is urging compliance with Ukraine’s political “obligations” under the Minsk “agreement.”
    • Kerry and Nuland’s joint visit on July 7, however, has added urgency and even impatience to Kerry’s tone, reflecting the Barack Obama administration’s rush to show results before the November presidential election in the United States
    • By the logic and sequence of steps proposed, Ukraine would make pre-emptive, irreversible sacrifices of sovereignty, without any assurance that Russian forces would withdraw or that the two armed “people’s republics” would abdicate. Almost certainly they would not.
    • The West may help Russia enforce those political provisions on Ukraine, but the same Western powers cannot help Ukraine enforce those military provisions on Russia.
    Thanks Azor....there has been a tremendous disconnect between WHAT the Obama/Rhodes WH DOES and actually says it does referencing eastern Ukraine...the recent "flood" of US money and assistance programs made during the NATO Warsaw summit was an attempt to "buy" the Ukraine....

    Kerry and Nuland have repeatedly attempted to pressure Ukraine into unilateral appeasement moves IMHO to "give Putin a face saving win"...WITHOUT a single reciprocal move guarantee to be made by Russia/Putin.

    Minsk 2 has two equal parts; 1) a number of political actions and 2) a number of military actions that must be conducted prior to the implementation of the political actions.

    So was the marching orders provided by Germany and France at the Minsk 2 talks which Putin then massively ignored when he continued the strong Russian Army attack on Debalsteve.....using BTW Russian regular Siberian units....

    Obama/Rhodes WH simply wants a "legacy win" for both eastern Ukraine and Syria thus they are willing to give Putin virtually anything he wants...we see the utter lack of any comment by the US on the Russian use of thermobaric, cluster and incendiaries on civilians in Syria and he said virtually nothing on the large scale Russian attacks which were ongoing during the NATO Summit....

    THAT Obama/Rhodes, Nuland and Kerry try to "sell" this to Ukraine in the face of a civil society that fought in Maidan to ditch Russia leads me to believe they have no earthly idea of what they are doing in FP these days.

    The Ukrainian public after two years of solid war and the their loses would not tolerate any Ukrainian politician giving an inch of the Donbas to Russia and or allow Russia to stop their moves to NATO and the EU.

    The last polling indicated that 78% of the public supports now NATO and even higher for EU membership with their visa free travel coming in OCT....

    Right after Maidan that figure was at a whopping 19%..for NATO.

    WHAT amazes me is that both Nuland and Kerry when called out for the comments they make when in Ukraine ...meaning we the US is in fact pressuring Ukraine to make appeasement moves....THEY then when social media gets wind of the comments STATE..."we never said and or alluded to that"......

    Both have been basically lying for over two years now.....and now panic when they cannot get Ukraine to move in the remaining time left for Obama/Rhodes to create even more confusion....

    YET not a single US MSM calls the Obama/Rhodes WH nor calls out Kerry and Nuland on this......

    Bloodletting continues in eastern #Ukraine: 2 servicemen KIA last night, 4 wounded, according to military. Yesterday: 4 KIA, 3 wounded.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-12-2016 at 10:27 AM.

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    Maybe the Obama/Rhodes WH, Nuland and Kerry would do well to sit down and reread the Minsk 2 Agreements.....signed by the way without an American representative being there as there is also no US representation in the Normandy Four meetings....as Putin effectively blocked the US from participating in both.....

    BUT WAIT...the Obama/Rhodes WH was never interested in actually participating from the very beginning as they viewed the problem being a European problem not one for the US to get involved in....


    • Immediate and full ceasefire in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts of Ukraine and its strict fulfilment as of 00.00 midnight (Kiev time) on Feb. 15, 2015.

    • Pull-out of all heavy weapons by both sides to equal distance with the aim of creation of a security zone on minimum 50 kilometres apart for artillery of 100mm calibre or more, and a security zone of 70km for MLRS and 140 kilometres for MLRS Tornado-S, Uragan, Smerch and tactical missile systems Tochka U.

    – for Ukrainian troops, from actual line of contact;

    – for armed formations of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts of Ukraine, from the contact line in accordance with the Minsk memorandum as of Sept. 19, 2014


    • The pullout of the above mentioned heavy weapons has to start no later than the second day after the ceasefire and finish within 14 days.

    • This process will be assisted by OSCE with the support of the Trilateral Contact Group.

    • Effective monitoring and verification of ceasefire regime and pullout of heavy weapons by OSCE will be provided from the first day of pullout, using all necessary technical means such as satellites, drones, radio-location systems etc.

    • On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine “On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts,” and also about the future of these districts based on the above mentioned law.

    • Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law “On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts,” based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of Sept. 19, 2014.

    • Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular departments of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts of Ukraine.

    • Provide release and exchange of all hostages and illegally held persons, based on the principle of “all for all”. This process has to end – at the latest – on the fifth day after the pullout (of weapons).

    • Provide safe access, delivery, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid to the needy, based on an international mechanism.

    • Define the modalities of a full restoration of social and economic connections, including social transfers, such as payments of pensions and other payments (income and revenue, timely payment of communal bills, restoration of tax payments within the framework of Ukrainian legal field)

    • With this aim, Ukraine will restore management over the segment of its banking system in the districts affected by the conflict, and possibly, an international mechanism will be established to ease such transactions.

    • Restore full control over the state border by Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.

    • Pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under OSCE supervision. Disarmament of all illegal groups.

    • Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with the new Constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralisation (taking into account peculiarities of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, agreed with representatives of these districts), and also approval of permanent legislation on special status of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts in accordance with the measures spelt out in the footnotes, by the end of 2015.
    Putin has not fulfilled a single point of Minsk 2, there is no true ceasefire and no full exchange of POWs.....with 50-80 attacks daily...AND Russia and her mercenaries never did fully withdraw heir heavy weapons under OSCE verification and controls.....and Russia keeps sending troops, mercenaries, heavy weapons, fuel and munitions into eastern Ukraine AND hinders OSCE almost daily.

    So exactly just how is Ukraine to hold "fair and democratic elections under Ukrainian law" in a Russian occupied zone....there is not a single historical event that indicates this would be successful....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-12-2016 at 10:24 AM.

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    Russian mercenary surrenders to #Ukraine following armed squabble with militants
    http://uatoday.tv/news/russian-fight...ts-693696.html

    Russian helicopter over beach in Shcholkine, Crimea
    http://liveuamap.com/en/2016/12-july...holkine-crimea
    pic.twitter.com/O5R3eMwyZI

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    ICBMs deployed in massive drills In Russia
    http://russia.liveuamap.com/en/2016/...lls-in-russia-
    pic.twitter.com/Hxrdrpf3G2 via @Ruptly

    Topol, Topol-M and RS-24
    https://twitter.com/ruptly/status/752803473654177792

    Col. Andriy Lysenko: Yesterday, 7 flights of enemy UAVs were recorded in the ATO area

    ATO spokesperson: Mariupol sector: Main hostilities occurred at the front line Krasnohorivka-Maryinka & Shyrokyne

    Col. Lysenko: Other areas of hostilities in the Mariupol sector: Dokuchaevsk outskirts, Novohryhorivka & Pavlopil

    Col. Andriy Lysenko: Yesterday, militants fired at UA positions in the Donetsk sector for 22 times, out of which 8 were with heavy weapons

    Col. Andriy Lysenko: Donetsk sector: Main hostilities – Zaytseve & Avdiyivka where UA positions were actively shelled by the enemy

    Col. Lysenko: Enemy snipers were active in Luhanske, Novhorodske & Avdiyivka

    Col. Andriy Lysenko: Luhansk sector: In Stanytsia Luhanska, late at night, militants fired at UA positions and burnt a private house down

    ATO spokesperson: In the area of Bakhmut road, militants shelled UA positions twice
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-12-2016 at 10:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Col. Andriy Lysenko: Yesterday, 7 flights of enemy UAVs were recorded in the ATO area

    ATO spokesperson: Mariupol sector: Main hostilities occurred at the front line Krasnohorivka-Maryinka & Shyrokyne

    Col. Lysenko: Other areas of hostilities in the Mariupol sector: Dokuchaevsk outskirts, Novohryhorivka & Pavlopil

    Col. Andriy Lysenko: Yesterday, militants fired at UA positions in the Donetsk sector for 22 times, out of which 8 were with heavy weapons

    Col. Andriy Lysenko: Donetsk sector: Main hostilities – Zaytseve & Avdiyivka where UA positions were actively shelled by the enemy

    Col. Lysenko: Enemy snipers were active in Luhanske, Novhorodske & Avdiyivka

    Col. Andriy Lysenko: Luhansk sector: In Stanytsia Luhanska, late at night, militants fired at UA positions and burnt a private house down

    ATO spokesperson: In the area of Bakhmut road, militants shelled UA positions twice
    103 Ukrainian troops got either killed or wounded during the first third of July 2016.

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    #Ukraine military banned #journos of @HromadskeUA @StankoNastya & @Reutski from frontline for rules violations, bringing #Rus journo to spy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    To be fair, Outlaw has been on this since Minsk I...

    According to Vladimir Socor at the Jamestown Foundation:

    1. http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...c#.V4QgWlYrKUk
    2. http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...4#.V4QgXFYrKUk



    • “Quietly but summarily, the administration of President Obama has informed Kyiv that it wants to see elections in Donbas before Obama leaves office”
    • Nuland is urging compliance with Ukraine’s political “obligations” under the Minsk “agreement.”
    • Kerry and Nuland’s joint visit on July 7, however, has added urgency and even impatience to Kerry’s tone, reflecting the Barack Obama administration’s rush to show results before the November presidential election in the United States
    • By the logic and sequence of steps proposed, Ukraine would make pre-emptive, irreversible sacrifices of sovereignty, without any assurance that Russian forces would withdraw or that the two armed “people’s republics” would abdicate. Almost certainly they would not.
    • The West may help Russia enforce those political provisions on Ukraine, but the same Western powers cannot help Ukraine enforce those military provisions on Russia.
    NOW Kerry is trying to truly rewrite history....as the Obama WH was never going to go this far.....all of their actions in 2014 and 2015 indicate they were doing actually the direct opposite....

    .@JohnKerry in March 2014: US & G8 nations are "prepared to go to the hilt to isolate #Russia" https://twitter.com/Russializer/stat...20236928008193

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    Alleged Zakharchenko guard surrenders to Ukraine. Guess what? That's right - he's a Russian citizen.

    http://www.unian.info/war/1413936-za...ne-forces.html

    Rise & fall of pro-RU separatist 'Oplot' gang in #Ukraine accentuated troubling link btw sports & politics in exUSSR http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2016/7/12...n-politics-ufc

    Kremlin officials still playing dumb over international opposition to Russian hybrid war in Ukraine. Nobody fooled https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/s...96898701426688

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    The Daily Signal
    ✔ @DailySignal As @NATO discussed ways to counter Russian aggression, the conflict in Ukraine spiked to its worst level in months
    . http://dailysign.al/29OnhjI

    The dangerous decade: Russia-NATO relations 2014 to 2024
    http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentar...s_2014_to_2024
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-12-2016 at 06:08 PM.

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    Default Ah, Der Spiegel

    Outlaw 09 may agree with many Germans on the value of the European Union , but Germans clearly disagree with him on the value of the trans-Atlantic alliance. Despite the pressure that Merkel has put on European cohesion with her disastrous border and migration policies, it is difficult to imagine her successor taking a harder line with Russia. Many German leaders, Steinmeier included, would love for the Ukrainian issue to just go away so that they can expand Nord Stream and go back to business as usual.

    See here from Der Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...578-druck.html

    Below are the juicy excerpts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiegrefe
    The hawks would seem to be setting the tone at the moment. Russia is an "existential threat," NATO's then-top military commander, Philip Breedlove -- who also adopted a hardline position during the height of the Ukraine crisis -- said not long ago. This spring, Polish Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski said that Russia represents a greater risk to Europe than Islamic State. And at the beginning of June, the Danish NATO officer Jakob Larsen publicly suggested that "we need to learn to fight total war again." Larsen commands NATO's advance post in Lithuania and apparently isn't aware that the last call for "total war" was made in Germany during the infamous 1943 speech delivered in a Berlin sports stadium by Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels.
    Are we to assume that a country that has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, which openly talks about using them even in limited conflicts, which openly talks about targeting non-nuclear NATO member states, and which has conducted more than one simulated nuclear strike on a neighbor is not more of a threat than a terrorist group mostly contained in the Middle East?

    The concept of total war was not invented by Goebbels and pre-dates World War II. Larsen could just as easily be referring to a whole-of-government approach, which would be required to counter hybrid warfare. According to Wiegrefe then, NATO is rife with hawks and Fascists...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiegrefe
    Ten years ago, two American researchers caused
    a stir by performing a computer simulation of a US attack on Russia and publishing their findings in Foreign Affairs. According to the article, Washington possessed the capability to eliminate Russia's nuclear capability...the piece argued that the US was about to achieve nuclear primacy. For some time, the US Air Force and Navy have been touting a new generation of conventional weapons for the realization of a capability known as Prompt Global Strike.
    Firstly, an open-source back-of-the-envelope analysis from ten years ago regarding the US benefiting from the Russian strategic C4ISR being in shambles has naught to do with NATO-Russian relations today. Secondly, Prompt Global Strike has not gone far since its initial conception, and the United States, Russia and especially China are all working on hypersonic glide vehicles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiegrefe
    Absolute security for one side translates to absolute insecurity for all other powers. Putin has already announced that he will react to the new NATO moves with countermeasures. The declared goal of NATO's more robust presence is that of making the eastern edge of the Western alliance more secure. It is legitimate to doubt whether NATO will achieve that goal.
    NATO is not seeking to achieve local superiority, let alone supremacy, in the Baltic region, especially given that the affected countries border Russia's Western Military District. However, it is incumbent on NATO to ensure that: (a) a "hybrid" or less-than-Article V conflict in the Baltics is unattractive to Russia; and (b) that the Baltic republics feel assured that NATO will defend them as much as say Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    Outlaw 09 may agree with many Germans on the value of the European Union , but Germans clearly disagree with him on the value of the trans-Atlantic alliance. Despite the pressure that Merkel has put on European cohesion with her disastrous border and migration policies, it is difficult to imagine her successor taking a harder line with Russia. Many German leaders, Steinmeier included, would love for the Ukrainian issue to just go away so that they can expand Nord Stream and go back to business as usual.

    See here from Der Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...578-druck.html

    Below are the juicy excerpts:



    Are we to assume that a country that has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, which openly talks about using them even in limited conflicts, which openly talks about targeting non-nuclear NATO member states, and which has conducted more than one simulated nuclear strike on a neighbor is not more of a threat than a terrorist group mostly contained in the Middle East?

    The concept of total war was not invented by Goebbels and pre-dates World War II. Larsen could just as easily be referring to a whole-of-government approach, which would be required to counter hybrid warfare. According to Wiegrefe then, NATO is rife with hawks and Fascists...



    Firstly, an open-source back-of-the-envelope analysis from ten years ago regarding the US benefiting from the Russian strategic C4ISR being in shambles has naught to do with NATO-Russian relations today. Secondly, Prompt Global Strike has not gone far since its initial conception, and the United States, Russia and especially China are all working on hypersonic glide vehicles.



    NATO is not seeking to achieve local superiority, let alone supremacy, in the Baltic region, especially given that the affected countries border Russia's Western Military District. However, it is incumbent on NATO to ensure that: (a) a "hybrid" or less-than-Article V conflict in the Baltics is unattractive to Russia; and (b) that the Baltic republics feel assured that NATO will defend them as much as say Germany.
    Azor....you bring up a number of interesting points concerning the German split personality ..........

    Remember the German "baby boomer" generation post 1968 was raised to hate and loathe war and BTW a number of those born in say 1933-37 were old enough to remember spending their nights in bomb shelters and the march of the Soviet Army into Berlin based on their parents Nazi history and that expressed itself in the German student movement SDS.....which was a generational break with their own parents and with the German society as a whole up to 1968....ie in German universities in the 60s male students had to wear a tie and literally had to bow down to the Professors...a hangover from the 30s....

    Coupled with a hefty anti VN war movement as I do remember their marches down the Ku-dam by the thousands waving NLF and VC flags chanting Ho, Ho, Ho chi-Minh...until they ran into the water cannons of the riot police.

    That same student movement turned then into a general anti war anti military movement in the 80s with their Stop the Bomb railroad demos when the US was shipping bombs from Bremerhaven to the USAF bases and then it was against the stationing of the US cruise missiles...BUT when the Wall came down so died at the same time this energized student and baby boomer generation. This coupled at the same time with a strong anti nuclear power plant movement which led to a massive riot that was fought literally in a forest with thousands of demonstrators and an equal number of riot police.

    Now jump forward and you have a complete new generation in their 30-40s that is politically unmotivated about anything outside of earning money and enjoying life in general.

    Then along comes an existential threat which they cannot comprehend as they are not from the Cold War days and their inherent lack to get motivated politically about anything.

    Except Pocomon Go where they will have a demo to demand it be released in Germany led by over 2000 teenagers....

    Right now many of those that I know that are still politically active openly complain about the total lack of German interest in anything political...

    NOW jump into the current German politics and you will notice that those that want to move back to business as usual are from the German Social Democratic Party (SPD) and those in that party in their 40-60s....driven by what I call simply greed. Remember the SPD is basically a tad to the left and had a close socialist/communist past thus an inherent affinity for Russia.

    The former SPD leader Schroeder has made a ton of money by being named by the Russians to the Nordstream 1 board and their FM is a lackluster politician not well liked by Merkel as he states things that often have not been cleared by her ie his recent critique of NATO as a "warmonger sable rattling organization..

    Right now the SPD has in polling slipped under 21% and for a party that polled in the 40-50% in the Cold War days...that is a major loss.

    And based on the recent federal elections and with the increased number of populist parties polling in the 12-15% ranges you are seeing the SPD slip badly into 3rd and or 4th position with the newly elected governments being Centrist to Green or what they call Black Green governments.

    Merkel and her CDU has though starting polling upwards in a strong move as the public now is seeing her as a stability factor and as they have become more open to the refugee issues.

    Part of the refugee problem was that the numbers initially overwhelmed the government and they had no messaging and narrative e for the public to accommodate the sheer numbers...since then the government has caught up, has a solid integration program in place and is controlling tighter and tighter and thus the confidence of the public increases...

    Notice the comments made by Merkel during the Warsaw Summit....some of the strongest ever made by a German leader against Putin...BTW not even matched by Obama.

    The Russian sanctions will hold in the EU as long as Merkel holds the line as the EU knows who the EU paymaster is...thus the drive by the SPD to try to do workarounds ie the new NordStream......

    BTW....recent polling as late as last week clearly shows over 54% of Germans are now naming Russia as a serious threat to Germany.....up from say about 14% during Crimea...and remember Russia has now made Germany a prime info warfare target as it has a large Russian community and a large Russian mafia community.....and the FSB has been working Germany hard since 1991.

    That increase is due namely to the constant reporting by the German MSM newspaper BILD which is about the only one carry a constant stream of reporting on both eastern Ukraine and Syria and the Russian actions in both those locations.

    BILD recently received a ruffle by the German Press Institute for supposedly false reporting and then BILD blasted back with photo after photo and totally fact checked articles and the Agency went totally silent...and BILD is correcting and calling out the mistakes made often by the German national news channels....earning them the direct Russian info warfare directed by RT and TASS....

    So all in all do not write off the German public as not wanting to do anything except "business as usual"...they have indeed caught the curve...it will be interesting to see where they go in the coming years...especially as they slowly rearm and rebuild their military to match the now perceived Russian threat.

    BUT one thing is a given for sure...with the exit of the UK from the EU...the next US President will be forced to work ever closer with Germany something that did not happen under the Obama/Rhodes WH....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-13-2016 at 06:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Azor....you bring up a number of interesting points concerning the German split personality ..........

    Remember the German "baby boomer" generation post 1968 was raised to hate and loathe war and BTW a number of those born in say 1933-37 were old enough to remember spending their nights in bomb shelters and the march of the Soviet Army into Berlin based on their parents Nazi history and that expressed itself in the German student movement SDS.....which was a generational break with their own parents and with the German society as a whole up to 1968....ie in German universities in the 60s male students had to wear a tie and literally had to bow down to the Professors...a hangover from the 30s....

    Coupled with a hefty anti VN war movement as I do remember their marches down the Ku-dam by the thousands waving NLF and VC flags chanting Ho, Ho, Ho chi-Minh...until they ran into the water cannons of the riot police.

    That same student movement turned then into a general anti war anti military movement in the 80s with their Stop the Bomb railroad demos when the US was shipping bombs from Bremerhaven to the USAF bases and then it was against the stationing of the US cruise missiles...BUT when the Wall came down so died at the same time this energized student and baby boomer generation. This coupled at the same time with a strong anti nuclear power plant movement which led to a massive riot that was fought literally in a forest with thousands of demonstrators and an equal number of riot police.

    Now jump forward and you have a complete new generation in their 30-40s that is politically unmotivated about anything outside of earning money and enjoying life in general.

    Then along comes an existential threat which they cannot comprehend as they are not from the Cold War days and their inherent lack to get motivated politically about anything.

    Except Pocomon Go where they will have a demo to demand it be released in Germany led by over 2000 teenagers....

    Right now many of those that I know that are still politically active openly complain about the total lack of German interest in anything political...

    NOW jump into the current German politics and you will notice that those that want to move back to business as usual are from the German Social Democratic Party (SPD) and those in that party in their 40-60s....driven by what I call simply greed. Remember the SPD is basically a tad to the left and had a close socialist/communist past thus an inherent affinity for Russia.

    The former SPD leader Schroeder has made a ton of money by being named by the Russians to the Nordstream 1 board and their FM is a lackluster politician not well liked by Merkel as he states things that often have not been cleared by her ie his recent critique of NATO as a "warmonger sable rattling organization..

    Right now the SPD has in polling slipped under 21% and for a party that polled in the 40-50% in the Cold War days...that is a major loss.

    And based on the recent federal elections and with the increased number of populist parties polling in the 12-15% ranges you are seeing the SPD slip badly into 3rd and or 4th position with the newly elected governments being Centrist to Green or what they call Black Green governments.

    Merkel and her CDU has though starting polling upwards in a strong move as the public now is seeing her as a stability factor and as they have become more open to the refugee issues.

    Part of the refugee problem was that the numbers initially overwhelmed the government and they had no messaging and narrative e for the public to accommodate the sheer numbers...since then the government has caught up, has a solid integration program in place and is controlling tighter and tighter and thus the confidence of the public increases...

    Notice the comments made by Merkel during the Warsaw Summit....some of the strongest ever made by a German leader against Putin...BTW not even matched by Obama.

    The Russian sanctions will hold in the EU as long as Merkel holds the line as the EU knows who the EU paymaster is...thus the drive by the SPD to try to do workarounds ie the new NordStream......

    BTW....recent polling as late as last week clearly shows over 54% of Germans are now naming Russia as a serious threat to Germany.....up from say about 14% during Crimea...and remember Russia has now made Germany a prime info warfare target as it has a large Russian community and a large Russian mafia community.....and the FSB has been working Germany hard since 1991.

    That increase is due namely to the constant reporting by the German MSM newspaper BILD which is about the only one carry a constant stream of reporting on both eastern Ukraine and Syria and the Russian actions in both those locations.

    BILD recently received a ruffle by the German Press Institute for supposedly false reporting and then BILD blasted back with photo after photo and totally fact checked articles and the Agency went totally silent...and BILD is correcting and calling out the mistakes made often by the German national news channels....earning them the direct Russian info warfare directed by RT and TASS....

    So all in all do not write off the German public as not wanting to do anything except "business as usual"...they have indeed caught the curve...it will be interesting to see where they go in the coming years...especially as they slowly rearm and rebuild their military to match the now perceived Russian threat.

    BUT one thing is a given for sure...with the exit of the UK from the EU...the next US President will be forced to work ever closer with Germany something that did not happen under the Obama/Rhodes WH....
    Azor...an example on just how BILD is driving their reporting on both eastern Ukraine and Syria......they are head and shoulders above NYTs and WaPo.....and it is fact checked and fact checked......and then fact checked....

    Dear journalists & editors of English speaking online news portals around the world.
    @BILD offers you a free article on the siege of #Aleppo

    In some aspects BILD is about the only European MSM that fully reinvented itself after the Wall came down and is being accepted now as a valid German "political newspaper" that comments on current affairs in an open direct manner.

    Azor...this came in this morning....

    Almost 60% of Germans think refugees will make the country stronger because of their work and talents. @pewresearch
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-13-2016 at 08:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw 09
    Almost 60% of Germans think refugees will make the country stronger because of their work and talents. @pewresearch
    Most Germans believe that migrants will increase the likelihood of terrorism and that Muslims want to be “distinct” (July 11, 2016)

    The fact that Germans believe that their economy and social system can handle the migrant inflows does not mean that they believe the migrants have essential skills, which they usually do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw 09
    Part of the refugee problem was that the numbers initially overwhelmed the government and they had no messaging and narrative e for the public to accommodate the sheer numbers...since then the government has caught up, has a solid integration program in place and is controlling tighter and tighter and thus the confidence of the public increases...
    Yet Merkel made Germany a target for these flows. Early on, the European Union could have taken a hard line against migrant flows of which only 1/3 were genuine refugees fleeing war. The EU could have directed funds to support border control and refugee housing in Greece, potentially helping the Greek economy, and negotiated a deal with Turkey many months sooner. There is a reason these migrants are targeting Germany, the UK and Sweden as opposed to Hungary, Poland or France…

    The public narrative was that accepting one million unemployed young men with little to no skills (but EUR 3,000 to 10,000) was an act of generosity to help offset Germany’s historical sins.

    Nor am I convinced that there is a “solid integration program” other than to seal off the shelters from the public, censor reporting of migrant crimes and hope that the CDU’s open border policy is a lesser evil than what the SPD would propose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw 09
    Basically she [Merkel] backed fully the Ukrainian position…Merkel has something going for her that no US President has...she grew up in the former GDR, she speaks fluent Russian and fully understands Putin's mindset.....
    I still wonder how much of this is opposition to Russian aggression, and how much is merely supporter for EU expansion into Ukraine. When I think about the EU’s overreach in Ukraine, I am reminded of Germany’s overt and covert contacts with the Croatians during the Yugoslav Wars and then the KLA during the Kosovo War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw 09
    Except Pocomon [sic] Go where they will have a demo to demand it be released in Germany
    Apparently, Pokemon Go was released in Rostov in March of 2014. Unfortunately, the PokeStops were located about 100 miles northwest…

    I am glad that you bring up German opposition to the Vietnam War and the deployment of American nuclear weapons to Germany, as there is a continuum to German demonstrations against the Iraq War and NSA spying. The West Germans certainly did not protest the Soviet War in Afghanistan or Soviet deployment of nuclear weapons to East Germany with the same vigor; nor did the Germans take much notice of Georgia or Ukraine.

    I would argue that this is the result of the German defeat in 1945 and its post-war occupation.

    The Red Army’s war crimes in eastern Germany and especially Berlin, were absolutely horrendous. To add insult to injury, the Soviets annexed East Prussia, installed a pro-Soviet Stalinist regime and helped murder its opposition, built a wall around East Germany and stripped it of valuables, occupied it for over 50 years and threatened West Berlin and West Germany with invasion and nuclear destruction. At the end of the occupation, the Soviets had to grant East Germany its independence and bless German unification. Are the Russians of today remorseful for any of the crimes they committed? No. Are they willing to discuss any of it? No. Do they continue to occupy East Prussia? Yes. Do they continue to threaten Germany? Yes.

    In comparison, the Western Allies allowed for a democratic and pluralistic society to form in West Germany. They stimulated West Germany with funding and organizational know-how, kept their forces mainly disciplined, supplied West Berlin during the blockade, allowed for the free movement of Germans across borders, protected West Germany’s territorial integrity, and ultimately treated it as an independent ally. This all sounds very good, but it channels German resentment at defeat (there, I said it) in the wrong direction. If Germans accuse Americans of stealing their intellectual property, committing crimes (murder, rape theft) or acting as an occupier, Americans actually listen. Basically of the two “ex-husbands”, Russia is the angry violent drunk and the United States is the nice guy (relatively speaking). Germany is still afraid of Russia and ashamed at her humiliation at Russian hands, and so she walks on eggshells around Russia lest she need to wear the dark sunglasses again. But the United States? Well, he’ll apologize for not bringing flowers or showing up late or hanging out with the boys, even if he gets chirpy sometimes.

    That’s my theory in a nutshell…Germans critique the United States because it’s the only former occupier who will put up with the natter. Moreover, if the Americans defeated and occupied Germany because the Germans were tyrannical, it does slake some of the guilt to see the Americans act out of hand in Vietnam or Iraq, now doesn’t it? When the Americans are acting unilaterally and against world opinion, Germans can claim some moral superiority which is a type of ersatz victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw 09
    Notice the comments made by Merkel during the Warsaw Summit....some of the strongest ever made by a German leader against Putin...BTW not even matched by Obama. The Russian sanctions will hold in the EU as long as Merkel holds the line as the EU knows who the EU paymaster is
    All well and good but the Bundeswehr better be ready to support the Baltic republics and Poland. Putin could also pressure the EU by stirring up trouble in Transnistria…

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw 09
    ...recent polling as late as last week clearly shows over 54% of Germans are now naming Russia as a serious threat to Germany.....up from say about 14% during Crimea...and remember Russia has now made Germany a prime info warfare target as it has a large Russian community and a large Russian mafia community.....and the FSB has been working Germany hard since 1991. So all in all do not write off the German public as not wanting to do anything except "business as usual"...they have indeed caught the curve...it will be interesting to see where they go in the coming years...especially as they slowly rearm and rebuild their military to match the now perceived Russian threat.
    Well, the StaSi softened Germany up well, didn’t it? Glad that Steinmeier is fighting an uphill battle. He should be exiled to Kaliningrad. He’ll feel at home with the German architecture and the Russian soldiers and smugglers…

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw 09
    BUT one thing is a given for sure...with the exit of the UK from the EU...the next US President will be forced to work ever closer with Germany something that did not happen under the Obama/Rhodes WH....
    The US oscillates between the EU being threatening (despite its collective military power being latent) and advantageous (anti-military, pro-Western, unified, the Euro never supplanted the USD), which usually follows party lines. This is Germany’s time to come out of its shell, and hopefully (to paraphrase an earlier metaphor of mine), it won’t be a supernova or a black hole…

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    Most Germans believe that migrants will increase the likelihood of terrorism and that Muslims want to be “distinct” (July 11, 2016)

    The fact that Germans believe that their economy and social system can handle the migrant inflows does not mean that they believe the migrants have essential skills, which they usually do not.



    Yet Merkel made Germany a target for these flows. Early on, the European Union could have taken a hard line against migrant flows of which only 1/3 were genuine refugees fleeing war. The EU could have directed funds to support border control and refugee housing in Greece, potentially helping the Greek economy, and negotiated a deal with Turkey many months sooner. There is a reason these migrants are targeting Germany, the UK and Sweden as opposed to Hungary, Poland or France…

    The public narrative was that accepting one million unemployed young men with little to no skills (but EUR 3,000 to 10,000) was an act of generosity to help offset Germany’s historical sins.

    Nor am I convinced that there is a “solid integration program” other than to seal off the shelters from the public, censor reporting of migrant crimes and hope that the CDU’s open border policy is a lesser evil than what the SPD would propose.



    I still wonder how much of this is opposition to Russian aggression, and how much is merely supporter for EU expansion into Ukraine. When I think about the EU’s overreach in Ukraine, I am reminded of Germany’s overt and covert contacts with the Croatians during the Yugoslav Wars and then the KLA during the Kosovo War.



    Apparently, Pokemon Go was released in Rostov in March of 2014. Unfortunately, the PokeStops were located about 100 miles northwest…

    I am glad that you bring up German opposition to the Vietnam War and the deployment of American nuclear weapons to Germany, as there is a continuum to German demonstrations against the Iraq War and NSA spying. The West Germans certainly did not protest the Soviet War in Afghanistan or Soviet deployment of nuclear weapons to East Germany with the same vigor; nor did the Germans take much notice of Georgia or Ukraine.

    I would argue that this is the result of the German defeat in 1945 and its post-war occupation.

    The Red Army’s war crimes in eastern Germany and especially Berlin, were absolutely horrendous. To add insult to injury, the Soviets annexed East Prussia, installed a pro-Soviet Stalinist regime and helped murder its opposition, built a wall around East Germany and stripped it of valuables, occupied it for over 50 years and threatened West Berlin and West Germany with invasion and nuclear destruction. At the end of the occupation, the Soviets had to grant East Germany its independence and bless German unification. Are the Russians of today remorseful for any of the crimes they committed? No. Are they willing to discuss any of it? No. Do they continue to occupy East Prussia? Yes. Do they continue to threaten Germany? Yes.

    In comparison, the Western Allies allowed for a democratic and pluralistic society to form in West Germany. They stimulated West Germany with funding and organizational know-how, kept their forces mainly disciplined, supplied West Berlin during the blockade, allowed for the free movement of Germans across borders, protected West Germany’s territorial integrity, and ultimately treated it as an independent ally. This all sounds very good, but it channels German resentment at defeat (there, I said it) in the wrong direction. If Germans accuse Americans of stealing their intellectual property, committing crimes (murder, rape theft) or acting as an occupier, Americans actually listen. Basically of the two “ex-husbands”, Russia is the angry violent drunk and the United States is the nice guy (relatively speaking). Germany is still afraid of Russia and ashamed at her humiliation at Russian hands, and so she walks on eggshells around Russia lest she need to wear the dark sunglasses again. But the United States? Well, he’ll apologize for not bringing flowers or showing up late or hanging out with the boys, even if he gets chirpy sometimes.

    That’s my theory in a nutshell…Germans critique the United States because it’s the only former occupier who will put up with the natter. Moreover, if the Americans defeated and occupied Germany because the Germans were tyrannical, it does slake some of the guilt to see the Americans act out of hand in Vietnam or Iraq, now doesn’t it? When the Americans are acting unilaterally and against world opinion, Germans can claim some moral superiority which is a type of ersatz victory.



    All well and good but the Bundeswehr better be ready to support the Baltic republics and Poland. Putin could also pressure the EU by stirring up trouble in Transnistria…



    Well, the StaSi softened Germany up well, didn’t it? Glad that Steinmeier is fighting an uphill battle. He should be exiled to Kaliningrad. He’ll feel at home with the German architecture and the Russian soldiers and smugglers…



    The US oscillates between the EU being threatening (despite its collective military power being latent) and advantageous (anti-military, pro-Western, unified, the Euro never supplanted the USD), which usually follows party lines. This is Germany’s time to come out of its shell, and hopefully (to paraphrase an earlier metaphor of mine), it won’t be a supernova or a black hole…
    Azor...again a number of interesting remarks about Germany....but I am surprised that you also feel that Germany needs to come out of it's shell and lead.

    BUT and there is always a but...then when Germany leads.... all of Europe stands up in shock as does the US with panic ..."the Germans are coming"....

    Be it in the EU or with Ukraine or in Mali........

    Secondly, yesterday the German government released a document indicating that for the first time....non Germans can join the Bundeswehr meaning anyone residing in the EU minus naturally now UK.....

    That will allow it to bridge the lack of interest by Germans themselves to join as the economy is solid and pays overall better even though the Bundeswehr benefits actually are far better overall than even the US military.

    If you noticed this document also defined for the first time just how the Bundeswehr can be used outside of Germany....actually a first.

    Thirdly.....you mentioned the atrocities committed by the Soviet Army in Germany which did not really stop until 1951....in my area there is a cementary for German civilian internees who were thrown into NKVD concentration camps and basically starved to death as they "might have been Nazi's....but this included old men, women of all ages and yes even children.....100k plus died during that period and little has been written about it either in the GDR or the former BRD. The issue of the Soviet Army allowed raping across their fronts and up to Berlin...are actually now starting to be talked about and but when it does come up there is a massive Russian info warfare push back...

    Then the Soviets did not release their final German POWs until late 1950/51 only after German signed trade agreements with the SU and recognized the SU.

    The Soviets took war reparations from the GDR until the Wall fell....especially in the form of lopsided trade deals for say GDR built freighters which the Soviets always got at under sales price with a five year all inclusive guarantee which allowed the Soviets to drive the ships into the ground and then have the GDR completely rehab them at a cost to the GDR....then they virtually took the entire GDR agricultural crops leaving little for the GDR forcing them to use their limited foreign currency to purchase the shortfalls on the western markets. The same went for farm equipment produced in the GDR......let's not even mention Soviet uranium mining in the GDR....

    BTW...most polling inside say the Syrian refugee contingent indicates that only 7% are choosing to remain in Germany......the rest do want to return if and when the fighting comes to a full stop and Assad is gone....thus this is an easy fix THAT is if the West fully understands this. BTW the German government sentenced the first identified Syrian regime Shia militia member to three years for war crimes committed while he was in Syria fighting for Assad...14 more are in the court funnel....the German courts openly used his own FB entries...his argument..."I was forced to"...sound familiar?...but the Court pointed out he was smiling in the photos coupled with his own FB comments....

    Social media open source analysts passed the info to the German police....and it is to my knowledge the first use of such evidence by a German Court.

    AND yesterday the German Federal Police raided 16 locations and arrested 18 neo Nazi's/neo rightists for hate speech statements in the internet against immigarants......jail time of three years is a given.....remember Germany is just about the only country that actively backs up their hate speech laws...based largely on their Nazi past.....

    Same similar polling is also seen in the Iraqi contingent as well....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-14-2016 at 06:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    To be fair, Outlaw has been on this since Minsk I...

    According to Vladimir Socor at the Jamestown Foundation:

    1. http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...c#.V4QgWlYrKUk
    2. http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_...4#.V4QgXFYrKUk



    • “Quietly but summarily, the administration of President Obama has informed Kyiv that it wants to see elections in Donbas before Obama leaves office”
    • Nuland is urging compliance with Ukraine’s political “obligations” under the Minsk “agreement.”
    • Kerry and Nuland’s joint visit on July 7, however, has added urgency and even impatience to Kerry’s tone, reflecting the Barack Obama administration’s rush to show results before the November presidential election in the United States
    • By the logic and sequence of steps proposed, Ukraine would make pre-emptive, irreversible sacrifices of sovereignty, without any assurance that Russian forces would withdraw or that the two armed “people’s republics” would abdicate. Almost certainly they would not.
    • The West may help Russia enforce those political provisions on Ukraine, but the same Western powers cannot help Ukraine enforce those military provisions on Russia.
    Azor...BTW...a solid catch on info....as this closes and explains why there was a sudden rash of "hardcore statements" made by the Ukrainian President and his FM during the NATO Warsaw Summit on what has to be done before elections can be held in eastern Ukraine along with a security implementation plan for the occupied zone...

    Which you know Russia will reject as it does not fit their "political demands".

    THEN surprise, surprise Merkel issued a series of strong statements against the current overall Russian activities in central Europe and why the sanctions are and will be in place until there is a complete ceasefire and Russia starts to implement truly Minsk 2.

    Basically she backed fully the Ukrainian position and notice it was made by her not her FM who basically uttered not a single statement during the Summit especially after his NATO "hit job"......

    Merkel has something going for her that no US President has...she grew up in the former GDR, she speaks fluent Russian and fully understands Putin's mindset.....

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