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  1. #1
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    Default From Donbas to Belarus?

    I've long argued that Putin is far more likely to attack Belarus or Kazakhstan than the Baltics, as the former two are:

    • Not protected by any major and/or nuclear-armed powers
    • Hold more "resources" for Russia than the Baltics (i.e. human and commodity)
    • Regarded as much part of Russia historic "buffer zone", "privileged sphere of interest" or "near abroad" as Ukraine
    • Exhibiting tensions towards the "Russian World" i.e. distancing themselves from Moscow and Russian language and culture


    Here is the latest from Jamestown: Minsk Fears Moscow May Organize Hybrid War and Color Revolution in Belarus

    "Many governments in the post-Soviet space fear they may be threatened by a color revolution; others are worried that they will become victims of a hybrid war. But Belarus is worried about both at the same time, something that makes it difficult for Minsk to cope because the challenges posed by the one and those posed by the other are quite different. Moreover, the policies that might be most useful to block one could, in some circumstances, have the effect of making the latter more likely. This is especially true because one outside power—Vladimir Putin’s Russia—is interested in making use of both in pursuit of Moscow’s ends..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    I've long argued that Putin is far more likely to attack Belarus or Kazakhstan than the Baltics, as the former two are:

    • Not protected by any major and/or nuclear-armed powers
    • Hold more "resources" for Russia than the Baltics (i.e. human and commodity)
    • Regarded as much part of Russia historic "buffer zone", "privileged sphere of interest" or "near abroad" as Ukraine
    • Exhibiting tensions towards the "Russian World" i.e. distancing themselves from Moscow and Russian language and culture


    Here is the latest from Jamestown: Minsk Fears Moscow May Organize Hybrid War and Color Revolution in Belarus

    "Many governments in the post-Soviet space fear they may be threatened by a color revolution; others are worried that they will become victims of a hybrid war. But Belarus is worried about both at the same time, something that makes it difficult for Minsk to cope because the challenges posed by the one and those posed by the other are quite different. Moreover, the policies that might be most useful to block one could, in some circumstances, have the effect of making the latter more likely. This is especially true because one outside power—Vladimir Putin’s Russia—is interested in making use of both in pursuit of Moscow’s ends..."
    Russia has no need to further "threaten" Belarus as they have all they need to do that already stationed inside Belarus ........and as Crimea has shown they can beef up those bases and Belarus cannot really say anything especially since Belarus is a member of CIS as well......

    Based on the Russian statements that they perceived the NATO actions in the Baltics to be militarily provocative they are following their Cold War Warsaw Pact strategy of building a second line of defense.

    Just as the Soviet Army was forward based inside the GDR it had far fewer troops in Czechoslovakia but built a second line of defense by basing more troops in say Poland and next to the Czechoslovakian border in order to stop a "perceived NATO ground attack"

    Yes Belarus can feel a "perceived" Russian military threat by these new troop basing's....IMHO it is a second line of defense against a "perceived NATO military threat coming from the Baltics'.

    So Putin wins twice...he "threatens Belarus" and defends against NATO in one single move.

    BUT.......

    This is Why @NATO Needs to be Worried About Russia
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...putin-and-nato

    BUT........

    Putin is rapidly reaching his decision point of "guns or butter" as he cannot afford any further "both"........I had said back after Crimea and shortly after the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine he would soon reach that point and it is now literally in front of his nose....that is why he is suddenly "playing nice" before the NATO Warsaw Summit by "lowering tensions in the Baltics" by turning on his "transponders"......begs the question if he turned them on...WHO turned them off?????

    Russia Is Very Quickly Running Out Of Cash
    https://lnkd.in/e5XaKxN
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-06-2016 at 06:02 AM.

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    Mark Galeotti: Russia's Slow and Hesitant 'Purges' Mask Policy Void ... The Moscow Times
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...id/574318.html
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-06-2016 at 06:51 AM.

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    Vasil Slipak's killer (Russian trained mercenary sniper) has been eliminated by a #Ukrainian sniper
    http://goo.gl/Rjve09

    Canadian military trainers find they can also learn much from Ukraine's experience of Russian hybrid war tactics
    http://bunews.com.ua/component/zoo/i...sts?Itemid=101

    Ukrainian Colonel freed after 2 yrs of militant captivity
    http://www.unian.info/society/140288...captivity.html

    Should have been released on a all basis right after Minsk 2 was signed but the Russian mercenaries refused to follow....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-06-2016 at 07:46 AM.

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    "The belief is that missile defense is just cover, that bases are there for a first strike intended to kill Putin."
    http://bloom.bg/29hrviC

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    U.S. public broadcaster @NewsHour surprisingly (?) humanizes pro-Rus terrorists in report from occup. east. #Ukraine
    http://to.pbs.org/29pQt1I

    Two Ukrainian soldiers killed, 10 wounded in Donbas in last day
    http://www.unian.info/war/1403518-tw...day.html<br />

    #Ukraine plans alternative route after Russia imposed transit ban yesterday
    http://upi.com/6353187t

    Record number of illegal arms from Donbas found at premises of Dnipro-1 Regiment
    http://www.unian.info/society/140321...-regiment.html
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-06-2016 at 12:17 PM.

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    New report on cross-border attacks comes as another proof of #Russia ' s war in #Ukraine
    http://uatoday.tv/society/new-report...ne-688649.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Russia has no need to further "threaten" Belarus as they have all they need to do that already stationed inside Belarus ........and as Crimea has shown they can beef up those bases and Belarus cannot really say anything especially since Belarus is a member of CIS as well......

    Based on the Russian statements that they perceived the NATO actions in the Baltics to be militarily provocative they are following their Cold War Warsaw Pact strategy of building a second line of defense.

    Just as the Soviet Army was forward based inside the GDR it had far fewer troops in Czechoslovakia but built a second line of defense by basing more troops in say Poland and next to the Czechoslovakian border in order to stop a "perceived NATO ground attack"

    Yes Belarus can feel a "perceived" Russian military threat by these new troop basing's....IMHO it is a second line of defense against a "perceived NATO military threat coming from the Baltics'.

    So Putin wins twice...he "threatens Belarus" and defends against NATO in one single move.

    BUT.......

    This is Why @NATO Needs to be Worried About Russia
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...putin-and-nato

    BUT........

    Putin is rapidly reaching his decision point of "guns or butter" as he cannot afford any further "both"........I had said back after Crimea and shortly after the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine he would soon reach that point and it is now literally in front of his nose....that is why he is suddenly "playing nice" before the NATO Warsaw Summit by "lowering tensions in the Baltics" by turning on his "transponders"......begs the question if he turned them on...WHO turned them off?????

    Russia Is Very Quickly Running Out Of Cash
    https://lnkd.in/e5XaKxN
    Russia won't ask #Belarus for permission to attack #Ukraine-ex-envoy (Belsat interview,vid)
    http://belsat.eu/en/news/ex-envoy-be...ttack-ukraine/

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    A Russian serviceman from the 18th Motorized Infantry Brigade seen fighting in eastern Ukraine, and back on base. https://twitter.com/askai707/status/750695546629783552

    The Russian MFA thinks Kyiv is preparing a new operation in the East Ukraine
    Idiots...
    http://liveuamap.com/en/2016/6-july-...-new-operation

    SBU detained "anti-fascist" from Russian militants gang "Vostok" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki0qOP4HYtA … pic.twitter.com/WSVGvNYnqF http://liveuamap.com/en/2016/6-july-...militants-gang

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    OSCE: Three children killed in grenade blast in militant-occupied Yenakiieve
    http://www.unian.info/war/1404212-os...enakiieve.html

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    Putin's July 4th message:

    CNN: ..."The history of Russian-American relations shows that when we act as equal partners and respect each other's lawful interests, we are able to successfully resolve the most complex international issues for the benefit of both countries' peoples and all of humanity," Putin wrote, according to the Russian readout. The Kremlin said Putin suggested past work between the two countries would "help to set the dialogue between Russia and the United States back on a constructive track" to address global concerns....

    Someone really wants in from the cold...

  12. #12
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    ATO spox: Total number of ceasefire violations in Mariupol sector: 29. Sixteen featured heavy weapons

    ATO spox: Ukrainian troops engaged in shootout with the militants in the vicinity of Berezove village

    Bold case: "In the 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act, Russia explicitly accepted NATO enlargement. Debate closed!" https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/750724827183517696

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    Russian party is on again.....

    Avdiivka, 2 Ukraine soldiers KIA, 3 WIA under Russian bombing today.
    https://twitter.com/ukrtwinews/statu...32906562195456

    13:53 #Avdiivka @tiamat007 Ongoing battle in the direction of #Promka, one can hear heavy explosions

    Avdiivka: explosions, battle in the area of Promka
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-06-2016 at 05:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Russia has no need to further "threaten" Belarus as they have all they need to do that already stationed inside Belarus ........and as Crimea has shown they can beef up those bases and Belarus cannot really say anything especially since Belarus is a member of CIS as well......
    Lukashenko has been adept at playing both sides. He is well aware that the EU would be less critical of a Russian incursion into Belarus than it was over Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Belarus is more integrated into the Russian-led economic and security architecture than Ukraine was (CSTO, EEU), and Belarus' role in Russia's aerospace defense is even more vital than Crimea. Nevertheless, we have seen increasing attempts by Lukashenko to garner Western interest in the hope of counter-balancing Russia and maintaining as much independence as possible. As long as Putin is invested in Ukraine and Syria, and as long as the Kazakhs are agitating more, Lukashenko can slacken the leash.

    Putin has probably concluded from the Ukrainian situation that proximity, economic integration, political and intelligence infiltration and forward deployment of forces is not enough to guarantee "loyalty". He secured Crimea but lost most of Ukraine and was dealt a severe intelligence (technology secrets) and military (industrial capacity) blow, all because Yanukovych did not "obey orders". Putin won't make the same mistake in Belarus.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Based on the Russian statements that they perceived the NATO actions in the Baltics to be militarily provocative they are following their Cold War Warsaw Pact strategy of building a second line of defense. Just as the Soviet Army was forward based inside the GDR it had far fewer troops in Czechoslovakia but built a second line of defense by basing more troops in say Poland and next to the Czechoslovakian border in order to stop a "perceived NATO ground attack" Yes Belarus can feel a "perceived" Russian military threat by these new troop basing's....IMHO it is a second line of defense against a "perceived NATO military threat coming from the Baltics'. So Putin wins twice...he "threatens Belarus" and defends against NATO in one single move.
    Defense in depth, no? In practice, the Soviets' notion of defense was to keep attacking by way of counter-offensives, and even their planned response to a NATO invasion was to march west...

    So Kaliningrad is the staging area for the first line to prevent NATO from reaching the second line in Belarus?

    Belarus is as integral to Russian security as Canada is to the United States, and I would go so far as to say that while the loss of Kaliningrad might not warrant "nuclear de-escalation", a NATO drive into Belarus certainly would.


    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    This is Why @NATO Needs to be Worried About Russia
    I read the Bloomberg article, but it doesn't add anything new to the debate, other than some more detail on Russia's opposition to NATO BMD in East-Central Europe, which I surprisingly agree with. Of course, Bloomberg's reporting is very political and I imagine that the billionaire opposes BMD in Europe and the more conciliatory EPAA.

    The impetus for BMD was to protect the United States against blackmail or a small strike from a rogue state (such as North Korea, Iran or Syria), an accidental launch (e.g. Black Brant) or one by a rogue local commander. NATO BMD is supposedly intended to protect NATO from Iran, even though Iran's likely targets are Israel, the Gulf Arab states and US bases in CENTCOM.

    Nuclear warfare experts (CSIS) conclude that BMD today, while hardly capable of stopping a full strategic exchange, could whittle down a second strike. And unless Russian officers are granted access to Aegis Ashore sites, along the lines of Nunn-Lugar, they may very well assume that the sites can also be used for offensive purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Putin is rapidly reaching his decision point of "guns or butter" as he cannot afford any further "both"........I had said back after Crimea and shortly after the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine he would soon reach that point and it is now literally in front of his nose....that is why he is suddenly "playing nice" before the NATO Warsaw Summit by "lowering tensions in the Baltics" by turning on his "transponders"......begs the question if he turned them on...WHO turned them off?????
    From what I can see, Russia will have a very slow recovery to stagnation or slow growth and only exclusion from SWIFT or another serious financial measure will force Putin to choose between guns and butter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    Lukashenko has been adept at playing both sides. He is well aware that the EU would be less critical of a Russian incursion into Belarus than it was over Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Belarus is more integrated into the Russian-led economic and security architecture than Ukraine was (CSTO, EEU), and Belarus' role in Russia's aerospace defense is even more vital than Crimea. Nevertheless, we have seen increasing attempts by Lukashenko to garner Western interest in the hope of counter-balancing Russia and maintaining as much independence as possible. As long as Putin is invested in Ukraine and Syria, and as long as the Kazakhs are agitating more, Lukashenko can slacken the leash.

    Putin has probably concluded from the Ukrainian situation that proximity, economic integration, political and intelligence infiltration and forward deployment of forces is not enough to guarantee "loyalty". He secured Crimea but lost most of Ukraine and was dealt a severe intelligence (technology secrets) and military (industrial capacity) blow, all because Yanukovych did not "obey orders". Putin won't make the same mistake in Belarus.



    Defense in depth, no? In practice, the Soviets' notion of defense was to keep attacking by way of counter-offensives, and even their planned response to a NATO invasion was to march west...

    So Kaliningrad is the staging area for the first line to prevent NATO from reaching the second line in Belarus?

    Belarus is as integral to Russian security as Canada is to the United States, and I would go so far as to say that while the loss of Kaliningrad might not warrant "nuclear de-escalation", a NATO drive into Belarus certainly would.




    I read the Bloomberg article, but it doesn't add anything new to the debate, other than some more detail on Russia's opposition to NATO BMD in East-Central Europe, which I surprisingly agree with. Of course, Bloomberg's reporting is very political and I imagine that the billionaire opposes BMD in Europe and the more conciliatory EPAA.

    The impetus for BMD was to protect the United States against blackmail or a small strike from a rogue state (such as North Korea, Iran or Syria), an accidental launch (e.g. Black Brant) or one by a rogue local commander. NATO BMD is supposedly intended to protect NATO from Iran, even though Iran's likely targets are Israel, the Gulf Arab states and US bases in CENTCOM.

    Nuclear warfare experts (CSIS) conclude that BMD today, while hardly capable of stopping a full strategic exchange, could whittle down a second strike. And unless Russian officers are granted access to Aegis Ashore sites, along the lines of Nunn-Lugar, they may very well assume that the sites can also be used for offensive purposes.



    From what I can see, Russia will have a very slow recovery to stagnation or slow growth and only exclusion from SWIFT or another serious financial measure will force Putin to choose between guns and butter.
    Azor...double check the actual deployment of Soviet troop units in that second line of defensive bases that started in Poland ........based on the very last Soviet military exercise conducted in mid 1980s the largest ever held in the GDR.....which was the main Soviet attack being actually exercised those Polish units were the follow on forces once the attack punched through NATO defenses or if NATO pushed back they were the defensive blocking forces....

    Kaliningrad......they in fact would "de-escalate over it.....why... it is they main Baltic fleet center, and if I am not so wrong they plan shortly to move their tactical ballistic nuclear missiles into it to counter NATO moves as well as being their Baltic air denial bubble ........via S300/400s.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Azor...double check the actual deployment of Soviet troop units in that second line of defensive bases that started in Poland ........based on the very last Soviet military exercise conducted in mid 1980s the largest ever held in the GDR.....which was the main Soviet attack being actually exercised those Polish units were the follow on forces once the attack punched through NATO defenses or if NATO pushed back they were the defensive blocking forces....
    Yes I know. But Russia no longer has the same cordon sanitaire that the Warsaw Pact provided.

    Kaliningrad serves to obstruct any attempt to marshal forces in the Baltics for an invasion, but if Sweden and Finland joined NATO, the Baltics would be transformed from a vulnerable and partly isolated flank to a bridgehead.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Kaliningrad......they in fact would "de-escalate over it.....why... it is they main Baltic fleet center, and if I am not so wrong they plan shortly to move their tactical ballistic nuclear missiles into it to counter NATO moves as well as being their Baltic air denial bubble ........via S300/400s.....
    I would still say that Kaliningrad is expendable. Its transformation into a military camp bristling with long-range offensive and defensive systems means that it frustrates any attempt to bypass it. This is not to say that Russia would cede sovereignty of the oblast in the event of a conventional loss NATO, but Kaliningrad is more of a forward operating base and a recent war prize like the Kuriles but unlike say Crimea.

    As for the Baltic Fleet, it receives the least resources of all of Russia's seaborne units and is more than capable of sealing off the eastern Baltic Sea even under heavy fire. Note that its submarine units are based in St. Petersburg not Kaliningrad...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    Yes I know. But Russia no longer has the same cordon sanitaire that the Warsaw Pact provided.

    Kaliningrad serves to obstruct any attempt to marshal forces in the Baltics for an invasion, but if Sweden and Finland joined NATO, the Baltics would be transformed from a vulnerable and partly isolated flank to a bridgehead.



    I would still say that Kaliningrad is expendable. Its transformation into a military camp bristling with long-range offensive and defensive systems means that it frustrates any attempt to bypass it. This is not to say that Russia would cede sovereignty of the oblast in the event of a conventional loss NATO, but Kaliningrad is more of a forward operating base and a recent war prize like the Kuriles but unlike say Crimea.

    As for the Baltic Fleet, it receives the least resources of all of Russia's seaborne units and is more than capable of sealing off the eastern Baltic Sea even under heavy fire. Note that its submarine units are based in St. Petersburg not Kaliningrad...
    AND the distance between Kaliningrad to the actual RF border is again what ...roughly max 150kms....it is exactly this point that bothers NATO....the new so called "Fulda Gap" that cuts Poland off from the Baltics.

    If that gap is sufficiently blocked then there is no land route for NATO into the Baltics that is the importance of Kaliningrad---one half of a pincer movement.

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    Atamanshchina spreading among Russia’s hybrid military force in Ukraine’s Donbas
    http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/07/0...raines-donbas/

    I have posted an increasing number of these incidents in the past four months...definitely increasing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    AND the distance between Kaliningrad to the actual RF border is again what ...roughly max 150kms....it is exactly this point that bothers NATO....the new so called "Fulda Gap" that cuts Poland off from the Baltics.

    If that gap is sufficiently blocked then there is no land route for NATO into the Baltics that is the importance of Kaliningrad---one half of a pincer movement.
    The more Russian strategists consider severing the Baltics from Poland, the more Sweden or Finland's accession to NATO makes sense as a way to facilitate access to the Baltics. This could also be accomplished by way of agreements with Sweden and Finland short of NATO membership i.e. transit rights.

    Ultimately, NATO can smash through any block that Russia attempts and can defeat Russia in detail on Kaliningrad and Belorussian soil without resorting to nuclear weapons.

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