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Thread: China's Far West provinces (inc. Tibet)

  1. #41
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    Default Uprising in Urumqi

    WSJ
    Beijing cracks down on a Muslim minority.
    7/8/09

    Authoritarian states are typically less stable than they appear, and China is no exception. This week's ethnic riots in western Xinjiang province are the deadliest on record since the end of the Cultural Revolution in the 1970s. Until the Chinese government is truly accountable to its citizens -- both the majority Han and other ethnic minorities -- these kinds of deadly uprisings will continue.

    Sunday's riots started when around 3,000 ethnic Uighurs, including many high-school and college students, gathered to protest ethnically motivated killings in a factory in China's southern Guangdong province. The riots turned violent but, thanks to China's information firewall, no one knows exactly why. State-run media report that Uighurs had attacked Han Chinese and count at least 156 people killed and more than 1,000 injured.

    Government outlets blamed Uighur "separatists" and labeled U.S.-based Rebiya Kadeer, president of the World Uighur Congress, the "mastermind" of the violence. Ms. Kadeer denies this in an article on a nearby page. Yesterday, thousands of Han Chinese, armed with homemade weapons, swarmed the streets of Urumqi, calling for revenge. Police stopped them with tear gas, but not before they had destroyed some Uighur shops. Other protests and violent outbreaks ripped across the city.

    (snip)

  2. #42
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    Default

    I seem to recall reading/hearing that China has a lot of energy reserves in that area - a whole different set of ROE in that neck of the woods and I imagnine the body count was much higher.

  3. #43
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    I seem to recall reading/hearing that China has a lot of energy reserves in that area - a whole different set of ROE in that neck of the woods and I imagnine the body count was much higher.
    I'd suspect so, Goesh. Here's CBC's take on it (and here), but it appears to have the same sources.
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  4. #44
    Council Member bourbon's Avatar
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    Default China's achilles heel

    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    I seem to recall reading/hearing that China has a lot of energy reserves in that area - a whole different set of ROE in that neck of the woods and I imagnine the body count was much higher.
    Energy yes, in addition to access to Central Asian resources and access to Gwadar Port in Pakistan.

  5. #45
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Default An interesting "scene setting" article

    From Prospect magazine:

    The final stretch on the road to Yarkand, about 125 miles from China’s border with Pakistan, feels like the middle east. Each village is a collage of single-storey mud-brick homes with turquoise door-gates. People travel by donkey cart or scooter-rickshaw. Men greet each other the Muslim way (palm to the chest and a slight bow); women wear headscarves. In small villages many signs are still in Uighur, the local language. But for how much longer?
    Source
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  6. #46
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Turkey attacks China 'genocide'

    This BBC News report starts with the Turkish Prime Minister calling what has happened 'genocide' and then provides an update on the situation: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/8145451.stm

    Amazing that the Chinese have not stopped media arriving, but have detained some. IIRC the BBC had a reporter in town when this started, just like they did when Lhasa riots started.

    davidbfpo

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    16 Jun 09 testimony before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs (before the recent outbreak of violence):

    Exploring the Nature of Uighur Nationalism: Freedom Fighters or Terrorists?

    Randall G. Schriver, Dpty Asst Secretary of State for East Asia from 2003 to 2005

    Sean R. Roberts, Elliott School of International Affairs GWU

    Dru C. Gladney, Pomona College

    Shirley Kan, Congressional Research Service

    Susan Baker Manning, Bingham McCutchen LLP

    Bruce Fein

    And 10 Jun 09 testimony to the same audience on The Uighurs: A History of Persecution

    Felice Gaer, US Commission on International Religious Freedom

    Kara Abramson, Congressional-Executive Commission on China

    Rebyia Kadeer, Uyghur-American Association

    Nury Turkel, Uyghur-American Association

  8. #48
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default AQIM threatens Chinese workers

    A UK newspaper story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ur-deaths.html

    Appears to be based on a London-based analyst monitoring of websites; I am puzzled at the citing of 'the 50,000 Chinese workers in Algeria and elsewhere in Northern Africa'.

    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    I am puzzled at the citing of 'the 50,000 Chinese workers in Algeria and elsewhere in Northern Africa'.
    davidbfpo
    I don't know about North Africa, but there are a ton of Chinese workers in sub-Sahara Africa. During a recent trip to the horn, I was surprised at the sheer number of Chinese nationals participating in various infrastructure projects at every level from business admin types to heavy machinery operators. Some entrepreneurs even left their construction jobs to open up their own martial arts studios, restaurants, etc. From what I was told/saw the workers usually rent a small place in the rough part of town and share the cost of rent and utilities while sending the bulk of their income to family members back home. They’ve even got accustomed to chewing kot.

    NPR: Army Of Shopowners Paved China's Way In Africa

    Africans marvel, fret at China's hard workers

    But he wonders about the Chinese practice of flying planeloads of laborers into a war-weary, politically fragile society where seven out of 10 adults under 30 has no job.
    Algerian officials say the country had 19,000 Chinese workers in 2007, mostly builders and craftsmen implementing parts of a $200 billion national economic development plan. Some Algerians believe the real number is several times that.

  10. #50
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Central and South America, too. Plus Canada...

    Busy people...

  11. #51
    Council Member Ron Humphrey's Avatar
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    Wink I guess it's pretty easy to be that "busy"

    When you can send a couple hundred million out and still break even for the largest population in the world.

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  12. #52
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    EWC, 16 Jul 09: Ethno-Diplomacy: The Uyghur Hitch in Sino-Turkish Relations
    Beginning in 1949, China responded to so-called Uyghur separatism and the quest for Eastern Turkestan (Xinjiang) independence as a domestic problem. Since the mid-1990s, however, when it became aware of the international aspects of this problem, Beijing has begun to pressure Turkey to limit its support for Uyghur activism. Aimed not only at cultural preservation but also at Eastern Turkestan independence, Uyghur activism remained unnoticed until the 1990s, despite the establishment in 1971 of Sino-Turkish diplomatic relations. It has gathered momentum as a result of China's post-Mao opening, the Soviet disintegration, increased Uyghur migration, the growing Western concern for human rights, and the widespread use of the Internet. Until the mid-1990s Turkey's leaders managed to defy Chinese pressure because they sympathized with the Uyghurs, were personally committed to their leader Isa Yusuf Alptekin, and hoped to restore Turkish influence in Central Asia. By late 1995, however, both that hope and Alptekin were dead, and China was becoming an influential, self-confident economic power. At this time Ankara chose to comply with Beijing's demands, which were backed by increased trade, growing military collaboration, and China's veiled threats of support for Kurdish nationalism. Consequently, Turkish Uyghurs suffered a serious blow, and some of their organizations had to relocate abroad, outside Beijing's reach. Nonetheless, Uyghur activism continues in Turkey and has become even more pronounced worldwide. Possibly less concerned about the Uyghur "threat" than it suggests, Beijing may simply be using the Uyghurs to intimidate and manipulate Turkey and other governments, primarily those in Central Asia.

  13. #53
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    Default Turkistani Islamic Party

    Promoting Jihad Against China: The Turkistani Islamic Party in Arabic Jihadist Media, by Kirk H. Sowell. An Independent Report Commissioned by Sky News, August 1, 2010. (PDF)
    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

    The Turkistani Islamic Party (TIP) is a jihadist organization which claims to represent China‟s Muslim Uighur population. It is the most militant of Uighur groups in the northwestern province of Xinjiang. While experts dispute TIP‟s origins, it claims to be a renamed continuation of the East Turkistan Islamic Movement (ETIM), which appeared defunct in 2003 following the death of its leader.

    Since 2008, TIP has used the global jihadist media to present itself as the successor of the classical Islamic caliphate, operating parallel to Osama bin Ladin‟s al-Qaeda (AQ), with its avowed ambition the Islamization of the People’s Republic of China (PRC). While marginal to Uighur society and never demonstrating significant capabilities, Uighur jihadists garnered increased international attention following al-Qaeda‟s 2001 attacks on the United States and TIP‟s own 2008 threat against the Beijing Olympics.

    This report, Promoting Jihad Against China, attempts to address two issues: (1) TIP‟s origins, including its relationship to ETIM; and (2) TIP‟s relationship to the global jihadist movement, including al-Qaeda. The evidence is derived from TIP publications in Arabic jihadist media supplemented by secondary sources in English and Arabic.

    While this report was commissioned by Sky News, it is an independent study and Sky News is not responsible for its contents. The key judgments are as follows:

    - TIP is a successor organization to ETIM, which likely ceased to exist in 2003. While TIP claims total continuity between the two groups, its emergence in 2008 is more likely a refounding of a defunct organization.

    - TIP has deep ties to the Taliban, but appears to have only tangential links to al-Qaeda. TIP supports AQ‟s war against the United States, but has criticized it for ignoring Asian Muslims. Media which habitually describe TIP as “al-Qaeda-linked” would be on firmer ground linking it to the Taliban.

    - The primary purpose of TIP’s Arabic publications appears to be fundraising, with little relationship to operations. TIP‟s publications feature highly-theoretical discussions of Islamic history and doctrine targeted to Gulf Arabs sympathetic to jihadism. While fundraising is typically a goal of jihadist publications, this seems more true of TIP than for jihadists in the Arab world.

    - TIP has failed to break into the mainstream Arabic information environment. While TIP‟s publications have sufficient presence on jihadist forums to give it exposure to its core audience, it has failed to have impact on mainstream Arabic media similar to that of other militant Islamist groups.

  14. #54
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Curious move

    Bourbon,

    The report aside, why would a UK-based global TV channel, owned by Rupert Murdoch's News International, with IIRC extensive interests in China, commission such a report? On a quick scan the report has no clues.
    davidbfpo

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    These guys are just one of many nationalist insurgent movements among Muslim populaces that AQ engages with as they conduct Unconventional Warfare to leverage the populaces of others to assist them in their own agenda/goals as an organization.

    If the West continues with a historic approach, we will help China conduct counterterrorism against this nationalist insurgent movement and to exert controls over the Chinese Muslim populace they represent.

    Or, we can perhaps draw a clearer perspective when looking at an insurgent movement against a government we have issues with than we can when looking at the insurgent movements against governments we tend to think of as "friends."

    My recommendation is that we out-compete AQ for influence with this populace. They need an advocate to help them in their very real issues with the Chinese government. The US falls much more closely in line with the historic principles upon which our nation was founded, and also with the overly positive self-image we have of ourselves in the global environment, by taking such a role. Not working to help the insurgent overthrow the government or break away, and not helping the government to suppress their populace. Instead providing a strong third party to help mediate the grievances.

    Everyone has come to recognize that good COIN "protects the populace" from the insurgent. What I don't see, however, is the recognition that good FID works to protect the populace from the insurgent and the government. In America we have a great constitution that has proven to be an effective guard of the populace against government abuse. (Recent efforts to nick away at those guards under the guise of current challenges must be resisted by the people!) In other places there are no such guards against government abuse.

    Who guards the people of Afghanistan from the abuses of the Afghan government?? Not the US, we actually enable the Afghan government (against our feeble protests) to act in abusive ways that feed the insurgency.

    Who guards the people of Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Egypt from the abuses of their governments? Again, not the US, who enables those governments to act with impunity as well.

    So, the question is, will we merely ignore this "Chinese problem" (In the current global environment, nothing is localized like that, and these guys are a significant source of foreign fighters to Pakistan) and let the Chinese handle it as they see fit? Do we assist the Chinese with capacity building and CT support to suppress this segment of their populace more effectively (and thereby add ourselves to the insurgent target list)? Or do we break the model that we have been following in Africa and the Middle East and take a neutral role more in line with our national principles?

    Just asking. I know what I recommend. These are not problems that can be contained, nor can they effectively be suppressed without increased chance of terrorist acts back home. They must be addressed, as they will not go away until they are.
    Last edited by Bob's World; 12-03-2010 at 01:12 PM.
    Robert C. Jones
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    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    If the West continues with a historic approach, we will help China conduct counterterrorism against this nationalist insurgent movement and to exert controls over the Chinese Muslim populace they represent.
    The Chinese will not need, want, or request our help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    My recommendation is that we out-compete AQ for influence with this populace.
    My recommendation is that we leave it alone. It's not our business, it's not our problem, and it's very unlikely that any side of the story wants us involved in any way. We are not the solution to every problem, and there's no need for us to get involved in every problem. Let it be. We've enough issues elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    Who guards the people of Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Egypt from the abuses of their governments? Again, not the US, who enables those governments to act with impunity as well.
    The degree to which we "enable" anything is highly debatable. In Saudi Arabia our "enabling" role is absolutely nonexistent: the US could withdraw completely from all engagement with the Saudis with no effect whatsoever on the Saudi relationship with its populace. They don't need our help to contain their populace and they don't care what we think... we'd lose a fair bit of intel (and a whole lot of defence contracts) but that's about it

    In Egypt our "enabling" role is minimal: they like the aid but it's not enough to give us enough leverage to force them to change anything, and they don't step on their populace because we enable it. They'd do it in any event. Once upon a time they were dependents, not now. They could survive without the aid, and it's likely that others would replace it if we withdrew.

    In Yemen, arguably, we enable a bad government to survive... but I've seen few good options proposed. Important to note that Yemen doesn't face "an insurgency" with "an insurgent leadership" that we can deal with if the government is unsuitable. Yemen faces a crawling chaos of ethnic, sectarian, and tribal conflict; the threat is not an insurgent victory but a descent into Somali-style anarchy.

    The whole notion of "enabling" is something you seem to asume but do not demonstrate; I think you vastly overrate what we can or do actually "enable". Certainly in China, no matter what policy we adopt, we will not be "enabling" anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post

    My recommendation is that we leave it alone. It's not our business, it's not our problem, and it's very unlikely that any side of the story wants us involved in any way. We are not the solution to every problem, and there's no need for us to get involved in every problem. Let it be. We've enough issues elsewhere.
    Agreed 150%


    In Yemen, arguably, we enable a bad government to survive... but I've seen few good options proposed. Important to note that Yemen doesn't face "an insurgency" with "an insurgent leadership" that we can deal with if the government is unsuitable. Yemen faces a crawling chaos of ethnic, sectarian, and tribal conflict; the threat is not an insurgent victory but a descent into Somali-style anarchy.
    Again, agreed with your accurate assesment.

    The whole notion of "enabling" is something you seem to asume but do not demonstrate; I think you vastly overrate what we can or do actually "enable". Certainly in China, no matter what policy we adopt, we will not be "enabling" anything.
    Exactly, it didn't/hasn't/doesn't work with Tibet I don't see how or why it should with ETIM or the Uighur people. Non-intervention not more intervention should be the norm at least if we still believe in the notion of state soveriengty. Ultimately, whatever problems a people has with its government are its problem unless the issues should be so severe as to threaten regional and international security in which case its a regional problem (essentially the Edmund Burke doctrine from the French revolution) and only in the last instance is it an international one....unless you subscribe to the idea of universal peace/government (which demands intervention) which is a dream and not even a nice one. Indeed, in a number of cases (if not the majority) local dis/malcontents tactitly if not overtly assume and rely upon the internationalisation of their greivance. Turning a local issue into a global one which not only complicates its resolution but also involves parties who have no business being invlved in the first place and seek simply to gain in some way. Remove that and you, IMO only, dampen the flames that lead to escalation.
    Last edited by Tukhachevskii; 12-04-2010 at 04:58 AM.

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    Stress fractures.

    More than five people are dead after an angry mob attacked a police station in western China. According to Chinese media reports, a mob attacked the police building in Hotan in the Xinjiang region, taking hostages and setting it on fire. Paramilitary police are said to have then launched a counter attack in which several hostage takers were killed.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-1...tation/2799554
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
    A canter down some dark defile
    Two thousand pounds of education
    Drops to a ten-rupee jezail


    http://i.imgur.com/IPT1uLH.jpg

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    AdamG,

    Such incidents as you posted above are regular occurrences in China, particularly in the rural areas, although sometimes in the urban areas and notably in Urumchi in July 2009. I cannot readily find a reference source.
    davidbfpo

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    You can expect to have many anecdotes and episodes in a 1+ billion people nation. It takes statistics to improve observations.

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