Page 9 of 106 FirstFirst ... 78910111959 ... LastLast
Results 161 to 180 of 2107

Thread: The Trump impact on US policy

  1. #161
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    .........Think about this statement and how this same mentality is to underline US FP going forward over the next four years......an advisor this close to Trump tells you where we are going......

    WHEN an advisor this close to Trump cannot even understand that capitalism is not a form of government then we are all in trouble.....so when Syrians demand the rule of law and good governance instead of raw pure capitalism then are we the US to support or not support????

    Trump advisor Stephen Moore: "Capitalism's more important than democracy, I'm not even a big believer in democracy"

  2. #162
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    It's no exaggeration to say that we should count ourselves lucky if human civilization simply still exists when Trump leaves office.

    AFTER a Trump twitter rant yesterday...we learn he was angry and tweeting based on a fake news site driven by a 16 year old and this is the next President driving US FP.....

    QUOTE from a leading journalist when he saw the Trump twitter rant.....

    holy f$&! So, the burden of proof is on reporters to prove the sxxxxxt Trump makes up is really made up? Insane.


    We as a nation are in serious trouble when a President is in an altered state of reality about the real world around him....

    BACK to my previous posting.....DID everyone notice the elegant shift from the weekend MSM carrying articles about the Trump businesses actually potentially dictating his FP.....SUDDENLY two twitter rants later the entire US MSM news cycle is diverted from his business....WHEN the business articles were actually about the statement....."capitalism is more important than democracy"....

    Russian propaganda has 6Ds to be effective.....Distort...Dismiss....Distract....Def lect...ALL designed to create Doubt and Distrust.....NOW which did Trump use to Deflect the increasing questions about his business ties and US FP?????

    Think about it....
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 11-29-2016 at 07:49 AM.

  3. #163
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default Bravo!!

    Quote Originally Posted by omarali50 View Post
    I had a post about President Trump, the unknown unknowns..

    Excerpts:

    ...I don't think Trump is particularly racist or sexist (relative to most 70 year old males, of any ethnicity) and he is obviously socially liberal compared to traditional Republicans. But the possibility is there that this shallow man (more or less socially liberal, a conman, ignorant) will be manipulated by his newfound advisers into disasters (initially abroad) that could have endless branching and mutating unintended consequences here and abroad. That could be a truly transformative crisis.

    The unknown unknowns get really interesting at that point.
    Bravo!!!! More, more, more!!! Finally somebody gets what this thread was supposed to be about!! Good honest discussion based on factual estimations ( since we cannot know what Trump will actually do yet!!!!) as opposed left wing democratic talking points. Or more accurately communist disinformation posted by traitors and democratic operatives.
    Again great post!
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 11-29-2016 at 10:20 PM. Reason: Caption shortened.

  4. #164
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Bravo!!!! More, more, more!!! Finally somebody gets what this thread was supposed to be about!! Good honest discussion based on factual estimations ( since we cannot know what Trump will actually do yet!!!!) as opposed left wing democratic talking points. Or more accurately communist disinformation posted by traitors and democratic operatives.
    Again great post!
    Posted by "traitors and democratic operatives".....what planet have you landed on....?

    Let's analyze the latest childish twitter rants of an elected US President who is 70 maybe that explains his childish rants.....

    FIRST we get the Trump recount twitter barrage (7) about the Green Party using their Constitutional and legal rights for a recount for which they raised
    5M

    Trump publicly stating in those SEVEN rants that he Trump had be defrauded of millions UNDERLINED MILLIONS of votes by MILLIONS of illegals....

    SLAPOUT his comments not mine....

    THEN when challenged by MSM as to what was his evidence he quotes a fake news site run by a 16 year old and THEN goes on another twitter rant against CNN BECAUSE they could not provide him "the evidence" he claimed he had....

    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 6h
    6 hours ago
    .@CNN is so embarrassed by their total (100%) support of Hillary Clinton, and yet her loss in a landslide, that they don't know what to do.
    0 replies
    14,088 retweets
    45,104 likes

    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 7h
    7 hours ago

    "@sdcritic: @HighonHillcrest @jeffzeleny @CNN There is NO QUESTION THAT #voterfraud did take place, and in favor of #CorruptHillary !"
    0 replies
    5,942 retweets
    19,315 likes

    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 7h
    7 hours ago
    "@FiIibuster: @jeffzeleny Pathetic - you have no sufficient evidence that Donald Trump did not suffer from voter fraud, shame! Bad reporter.
    0 replies
    4,975 retweets
    18,310 likes

    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 7h
    7 hours ago

    "@JoeBowman12: @jeffzeleny just another generic CNN part time wannabe journalist !" @CNN still doesn't get it. They will never learn!
    0 replies
    5,120 retweets
    18,537 likes

    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 7h
    7 hours ago

    "@HighonHillcrest: @jeffzeleny what PROOF do u have DonaldTrump did not suffer from millions of FRAUD votes? Journalist? Do your job! @CNN"

    SLAPOUT...BTW.....those 5-14K retweets generate on average another 20-100K tweets and BTW....many of the above Trump twitter rants were picked up by 120 other ring wing social media commenters....and made even it even to Breitbart.com

    Info warfare directed straight KKat the American is what you are seeing.....

    And you want a debate....?

    HERE is your factual debate that you provoke and then disappear.......

    factual estimations ( since we cannot know what Trump will actually do yet!!!!)

    NOTICED that yesterday MSM took the time and went through ALL of Trumps tweets...rally statements......debate statements...interviews..few actually and Fox statements as well as MJ and CNN.....

    THEN surprise surprise there were over TWO HUNDRED SEVENTY TWO Trump PROMISES as to what he was going to do when elected....IN EIGHT AREAS.....

    SO yes we know what he promised to do......BUT he has FLIPPED on SIX now....so yes we do not know what he wants...BUT THEN look at his staff nominations and Cabinet AND PRESTO we see he is following through on what he promised
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 11-29-2016 at 09:25 AM.

  5. #165
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    SLAPOUT.....YES we know what Trump is going to do as he as told you via his Tweets........that is his new DoS BTW........

    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 19h
    19 hours ago

    If Cuba is unwilling to make a better deal for the Cuban people, the Cuban/American people and the U.S. as a whole, I will terminate deal.


    1. Cuba is Cuba and no nation state likes to be told what they are going to do for you....especially Cuba and why would they listen in the first place to a Trump tweet rant?

    AND

    2. IF Trump terminates the Deal then American law goes back into effect and any Americans traveling to and or dealing business wise with Cuba and YES that means Trump as well is liable to be hauled into Federal Court and hit with heavy Federal fines and or jail time....and kiss those Cuban cigars s goodbye.

    AND

    3. ALL other countries WHO followed the Deal and have loosened up and established contact with Cuba due to tourism and trade are NOT BOUND by Trump's actions

    AND they will just continue to develop the Cuban tourism trade and development of new Cuban joint companies in the end killing US jobs....

    NOW we know the "factual actions Trump will take".....

    Care to join in this debate on his stated FP towards Cuba...THEN we can move on to Syria after that as he has repeatedly made Twitter and public statements to what he is going to do.....

  6. #166
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    In the Trump world of politics words have meanings...the core problem has been what does his words actually mean???

    Confusion reigns when Trump constantly and deliberately twists those words around to the point no one fully understands what he means....

    FINALLY one MSM outlet AP has caught onto the word game and set standards for the meaning of words....for all of their reporters....

    Associated Press directs its reporters to stop using "Alt-right" without defining what it is:

    "a white nationalist movement"

    Good.


    So in the future Trump or any one of his staff and cabinet using common words, phases, buzz words...dog whistles... and or slogans of the "Alt-right" will be simply declared....by AP in their articles as

    "a white nationalist"......from the "white nationalist movement".....end of story......


    THIS applies also to their overseas reporters especially in Europe...when reporting on populist parties....

    AWAITING the next Trump twitter rant on this.....
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 11-29-2016 at 11:33 AM.

  7. #167
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Ah...the games Trump plays and yet we are suppose to not believe he is going to do it......

    Before the election it was all about Hillary the crook...lock her up and kill here.....

    Then suddenly he mellows and states he is not going to do what he claimed he was going to do during the campaign....

    THEN suddenly the Green Party exercises their constitutional rights for a recount and the Democratic Party states we will join in order to monitor the recount and Trump literally flies into a twitter rage.....against the DP and Clinton.....

    THEN Clinton is leading in the popular vote at approximately 2.5m votes ahead of Trump and then he flies into a twitter rage ABOUT actually winning the popular vote...IT is he was just cheated by the millions of illegals who voted against him and or the DP.....

    ANYONE notice anything here????

    The Hill
    Verified account
    ‏@thehill
    Top Trump ally on recount: "Hillary increases her chances of prosecution by acting this way"
    http://hill.cm/pXFSBWV

    BLACKMAIL the new form of American politics.

    THEN we get the Trump rant today about burning the US Flag ......

    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump
    Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag - if they do, there must be consequences - perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail!

    SOMEHOW the new PEOTUS simply forgot that the US SC ruled recently that buring the US Flag is within the bounds o the 1st Amendment and thus allowed...and yet he knew nothing before his rant.....

    Russian 6Ds of propaganda hard at work here.....

    Dismiss...Distort...Deflect....Dismay...ALL designed to create Doubt and Distrust...

    Fear is rational. Our system can betray us. Trump toying with citizenship is treacherous. Today's @Morning_Joe row.
    http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/wat...-819817539508#






    .

  8. #168
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    In violating Cuban embargo in 1998, @realDonaldTrump committed a crime. No statute of limitations for impeachment.
    http://www.newsweek.com/2016/10/14/d...a-504059.html#


    Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 28. Nov.
    If Cuba is unwilling to make a better deal for the Cuban people, the Cuban/American people and the U.S. as a whole, I will terminate deal.


    Anyone notice a contradiction here???
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 11-29-2016 at 05:37 PM.

  9. #169
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Kingdom of Bohemia
    Posts
    34

    Default Difference

    Trump:
    “Today, the world marks the passing of a brutal dictator who oppressed his own people for nearly six decades,” the statement began. “Fidel Castro’s legacy is one of firing squads, theft, unimaginable suffering, poverty, and the denial of fundamental human rights. While Cuba remains a totalitarian island, it is my hope that today marks a move away from the horrors endured for too long and toward a future in which the wonderful Cuban people finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve.”

    He continued, “Though the tragedies, death, and pain caused by Fidel Castro cannot be erased, our administration will do all it can to ensure the Cuban people can finally begin their journey toward prosperity and liberty. I join the many Cuban Americans who supported me so greatly in the presidential campaign, including the Brigade 2506 Veterans Association that endorsed me, with the hope of one day soon seeing a free Cuba.”

    Now,EU Commission lectures:

    https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/st...11345323819009

    For me,East European,it is big difference.
    Talk is cheap.

  10. #170
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    861

    Default

    Forgot to add the link to the original post (President Trump, The Unknown Unknowns)

  11. #171
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,346

    Thumbs up Thanks from Moderator

    Quote Originally Posted by omarali50 View Post
    Forgot to add the link to the original post (President Trump, The Unknown Unknowns)
    Now corrected and I note - for readers - it has many links and some videos.
    davidbfpo

  12. #172
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    1,117

    Default

    For your consideration.

    Foreign Policy ER Podcast - Hitting the Reset Button on the International Order

    "On this week’s episode of The E.R., David Rothkopf, Kori Schake, David Sanger, and Hisham Melhem look at the threats to world order and U.S. foreign policy under a Trump administration.

    Based on his slate of advisors and tweets so far, it seems that President-elect Donald Trump’s foreign policy is taking a giant leap backward. Will his apparent alignment with the anti-Europe movement, overtures to Vladimir Putin, and isolationist sentiments erode the international order and U.S. alliances? And could a rise in nationalism in the United States and abroad bring fundamental changes and realignments to American foreign policy? Or, like many other Trumpian claims, will these views pass?"


    David Rothkopf makes no bones about his disdain for Trump, largely because of Trump's total lack of foreign policy or governmental experience, as well as the anti-Semitic hate-mail he got during the campaign from Trump Supporters who thought he should be gassed in a Nazi Death Camp. Still, the conversation is worth a listen.

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/29/...ational-order/
    Last edited by TheCurmudgeon; 12-01-2016 at 01:32 AM.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
    ---

  13. #173
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Don't miss this— Trump owes Deutsche Bank about $365,000,000, posing a major conflict when he takes office, per @NPR

    http://www.npr.org/sections/parallel...ct-of-interest

    But Johnson says Deutsche Bank is in deep trouble with the Justice Department over a number of allegations.

    "The tip of the iceberg is a particular fine by the Department of Justice, a large fine with the opening numbers around $14 billion, with regard to how they created and sold mortgage-backed securities before 2008," he says.

    There are private negotiations underway over the amount of that fine, Johnson says, with the bank and the German government pushing back.

    He says this sets up a huge conflict of interest for the president-elect: Once Trump takes office, he will be overseeing the Justice Department, which in turn is negotiating a fine with his biggest lender.
    Some German sources are saying that in order for Merkel to have initially reached Trump..she had to go through his son-in-law...

    MAYBE should have gone through the CEO of DB....????
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 12-01-2016 at 07:14 PM.

  14. #174
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    861

    Default

    Since Trump has caused many (including me, in my last post) to think dark thoughts about the end of Western civilization , a short post on what brought Western Civ down

    Is Islam the Rock on Which the Liberal Order Broke?

    Excerpt:

    Back in 1992, Fukuyama wrote his (much maligned, frequently misunderstood) book about the End of History and had this to say:

    What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of postwar history, but the end of history as such.... That is, the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government.

    People jumped on him for all sorts of reasons, but I don't remember any broad feeling that the Western liberal project had failed. Its most visible Western critics at that time tended to be postmarxists and postmodernists, whose entire existence (from their university appointments to every detail of their lives) was itself an appendage of Western liberal democracy and had no meaning outside of that system, and whose real-life ability to bring down Western liberalism appears insignificant (i.e., if and when it falls, it will not fall to these clowns).

    More "real-life" opposition came from the "Confucian authoritarians" (or postmarxist fascists, or whatever you want to call them) in China (and in smaller but influential exemplars, like Singapore). But while these groups had power, they had no great legitimizing ideology. They are only winning as long as they provide more and more goods to more and more of their people. And even while they do so, their people are watching "Friends", picking up liberal memes and dreaming of making Shanghai "better than Manhattan". It is hard to say this was a coherent ideological opposition.

    Internal opposition did come from people who rejected liberalism more deeply. But currents like Great Russian Fascism or illiberal Western ideologies (from the "almost inside the Overton Window" Pat Buchanan to Christian identity folks and a few hundred actual fascists) was always there ,but was also treated as a fringe affair. Triumphant liberal ideology had internal divisions, weaknesses (including the above-mentioned defection of many university trained intellectuals to postmodern/postcolonial/critical theory etc) and lacunae, but no serious competitor; The way of thinking that puts humanity, rationality, freedom and the individual at the center of the world and includes memes (not necessarily unique to it, not necessarily derived from first principles, but aggregating in a recognizable meme-complex) like legal equality, secularism, democracy and human rights, was so dominant it was taken for granted. These were the legitimizing ideas that all modern states at least paid lip service to. Democratic socialism, by the way, is just another variant of this post-enlightenment meme complex; even Marxist socialism is a variant of the same (Marxist revolutionaries, for example, idealized the same memes of equality, liberty and rights, but claimed that mainstream liberal Democracy failed to match its ideals, was a sham, etc.).

    The place where this whole meme-complex really hit a solid rock was in the Islamic world. It was not immediately apparent that this was so. Many Western post-enlightenment ideals were popular among the Westernized intellectuals of the postcolonial Muslim world. But the grip (and even the personal commitment) of these intellectuals was shallow. This was not immediately apparent to liberal contemporaries (and frequently, even to themselves; it is doubtful whether someone like Jinnah ever really understood the illiberal nature of his demand for Pakistan for example). The difference between Muslim and non-Muslim intellectuals,whether in the third world or the first, could be seen as one of degree; i.e. non-Muslim intellectuals too had older loyalties and identities that belied their liberal ideals, but the difference of degree was always in the same direction, and it was significant enough that the quantitative difference can be seen as a qualitative difference; more on this some other day).


    THIS challenge proved most difficult for Western liberalism to process; large numbers (probably clear majorities) of Muslims simply did not accept the most fundamental assumptions of the post-enlightenment Western worldview. This was such an alien thought (especially to those on the Left side of the liberal spectrum) that it was repeatedly obfuscated under other categories ("poverty" , "colonialism", etc). For this resistance exposed and undermined the universal validity of the whole liberal project. And it continues to do so. And as these events multiply, they evoke rethinking in other groups. The emperor can start looking ragged, if not completely naked. (e.g. the resistance of Muslim populations to joining the mainstream in countries they migrated to is neither total nor unique, but it is greater than that exhibited by contemporary Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist migrants, and again, always in the same direction. Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, but when it happens again and again, people start looking for explanations. Of course, not necessarily for good explanations..).

    As a result, all the other alternatives (most of them much stronger in "real-life" material terms than any Muslim country or party) like Great Russian Nationalism and its Orthodox Christian backstop, Chinese nationalism with Confucian and fascist characteristics, nascent Japanese nationalism, Hardcore Hindutva in India; all of them have become stronger because Islam has already wedged the door open and thrown open the possibility that the liberal project itself may be incoherent; that it does not map to the real world, that it may even be dangerous to non-Muslim groups to stick to it..

    In short, here is the thesis question for the day:

    If and when modern humanism and liberalism (broadly defined, you know the drill) crashes and burns (who knows, it may not), will future historians look back and say that Islam was the rock on which it first and decisively broke? Was Islam the kid who asked about the emperor's clothes with sufficient naive determination and clarity, and stubborn unwillingness to accept "the facts".. and thus opened the way to the future (which looks suspiciously like the illiberal past)..

  15. #175
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    861

    Default

    A set of tweets, storified here, explains some of the thinking behind the above blog post.

  16. #176
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    1,117

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by omarali50 View Post

    In short, here is the thesis question for the day:

    If and when modern humanism and liberalism (broadly defined, you know the drill) crashes and burns (who knows, it may not), will future historians look back and say that Islam was the rock on which it first and decisively broke? Was Islam the kid who asked about the emperor's clothes with sufficient naive determination and clarity, and stubborn unwillingness to accept "the facts".. and thus opened the way to the future (which looks suspiciously like the illiberal past)..[/I]
    No.

    Short of physical invasion, what brings about any liberal democracies demise is internal, not external. The fact is that there are large swaths of the planet that do not agree with Liberalism and have no intention of adopting it in the near future. Most of sub-Saharan Africa is communalistic, not liberal. The same could be said for Asia.

    Your argument is similar to the argument that the Soviet Union would be the demise of liberal democracies back in the 1950’s and 60’s. That the Marxist ideals were so incompatible with Liberal Democracy and capitalism that they could never be reconciled was common back then.

    In fact, I would argue that the decadence of liberalism is more a threat to Islam than Islam is to liberalism. Women are driving in Saudi Arabia and Iran, there are two McDonalds in Mecca, and Justin Bieber plays concerts in the UAE.

    Islam is unique in that it is still largely a religion and a political system at the same time. But so was Judaism. Arguably, so was Christianity from late Roman times until the demise of the Holy Roman Empire.

    No, if Western Liberalism fails it will not be because of Islam, or any other outside source. It will be because its people, being so steeped in the individualistic ideal of Liberalism, will no longer feel compelled to fulfill any of their civic duties. It is the curse of Liberalism – catastrophic success.
    Last edited by TheCurmudgeon; 12-09-2016 at 05:09 PM.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
    ---

  17. #177
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    1,117

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by omarali50 View Post
    In short, here is the thesis question for the day:

    If and when modern humanism and liberalism (broadly defined, you know the drill) crashes and burns (who knows, it may not), will future historians look back and say that Islam was the rock on which it first and decisively broke? Was Islam the kid who asked about the emperor's clothes with sufficient naive determination and clarity, and stubborn unwillingness to accept "the facts".. and thus opened the way to the future (which looks suspiciously like the illiberal past)..[/I]
    A different view from mine, but one that I see as valid. When Liberal democracy becomes too hard - requires too much effort for too little reward - then populism can take over.

    "The steady dismantling of democratic norms and practices by democratically elected leaders, what we call “authoritarianization,” marks a significant change in the way that democracies have historically fallen apart. Data on authoritarian regimes show that until recently, coups have been the primary threats to democracy. From 1946 to 1999, 64 percent of democracies failed because of such insurgencies. In the last decade, however, populist-fueled authoritarianization has been on the rise, accounting for 40 percent of all democratic failures between 2000 and 2010 and matching coups in frequency. If current trends persist, populist-fueled authoritarianization will soon become the most common pathway to autocracy."

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...A2MTYwODE1MwS2

    I don't think the democratic failures between 2000 and 2010 can be blamed on Islam.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
    ---

  18. #178
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    861

    Smile

    That was not my point at all. As I tried to explain in the postscript, my thesis is not that Islam will defeat Liberalism. The thought process was more like this:

    1.The weaknesses/incoherence/decay of the liberal world order are mostly internal to it. They may be simply a matter of the inevitable decay and corruption of any highly successful civilization (what you call "catastrophic success"), or some blind spots in the world view, some failure to map adequately to human nature, whatever. They are not caused by Islam.
    (the series of tweets regarding Cambodia from @scholars_stage, appended at the end and in the storify link make this point a bit clearer; i.e. the liberal order failed in Cambodia (as it did in many other places) without Islam playing any role, but that failure did not lead to any sudden collapse in self-confidence, or in widespread realization by those outside the liberal order that the emperor may be weaker than she looks, etc)

    2. But Islam/Muslims are a large enough phenomenon that their failure to line up and their almost naive refusal to accept the brutal facts (that they are weak, that the liberal order is very mighty, that the washing machines and iphones come from the modern world and everyone wants those, so how could large populations possibly consciously opt for alternatives that provide little realistic hope of a new washing machine, and so on) is increasingly hard to sweep under the rug. They are not killing the liberal order (at least not yet, probably never), they are making its blind spots visible to many others who can do some killing. They are creating doubt in the minds of the citizenry, but even more so, in the minds of the clerisy itself. Of course, the clerisy tries/tends to ignore or obfuscate the problem. It is about poverty. It is a reaction to microaggressions. It is a revolt against imperialism or colonialism. And so on. All these explanations have some truth to them. But not enough truth. Something else is going on. It may be that human beings are not the convenience-maximizing homo economicus we assumed. Or they are not naturally egalitarian when it come to gender. Or whatever..the particular doubts engendered vary from person to person. But the recurrent eruption of events that do not compute undermines confidence in the software.

    3. As the doubts spread, they lead to a search for alternative software. "Maybe the racists were right". "Maybe the religious revivalists were right". "Maybe the cultural nationalists were right". Maybe even that ignorant conman from Queens is right.. Whatever, the point is, the liberal order is losing the confidence of its own people. That can become a self-reinforcing downward spiral. By the way, the alternatives being considered are NOT necessarily correct. That is part of the point. The liberal order could fail, not because its failure was inevitable or because its enemies are better, but because it lost asabiya, coherence, confidence, public support, shared delusion. Something like that.

    4. Future historians look back at WW3 (I am just making this up, it may not be WW3, it may just be a lot of decentralized violence and decay, whatever, let your imagination run wild ). FFS, Trump is going to be executive producer of "celebrity apprentice" WHILE HE IS POTUS! I think this deserves all caps (and it doesnt matter if it ends up not happening. That he thought of doing it is enough. Seriously).
    Anyway, these imaginary future historians look back the fall of the Western enlightenment project, and one of them says "hey, you know, I think Islam was the rock on which this ship floundered. Not militarily or economically defeated by Islam, but exposed by Islam. Shown to be naked.

    5. Finally, the tweets about Fukuyama Redux are supposed to hint that this is not the end. Just another turn of the spiral. The enlightenment will be back. Ideologies not centered on man, on this world, on rationality, on empiricism will not take over the world. But the mess of 2032 will be a topic of study. And the role of Islam in undermining confidence in the first matrix will be a topic of study.

    6. Its is supposed to be a kind of thought experiment. To be put out there to get feedback. To start a debate. To learn something. I hope. Not as the literal true description of the mess of 2032 and its aftermath. More like a tiny effort to figure out what is going on, as our honorable President-elect likes to say.

  19. #179
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    1,117

    Default

    I think I understand your argument (but probably don't). My guess (or hope) is that, 50 years from now when historians look back at the collapse of American Democracy, they will see that it started in the 1970's. Young children at that time witnessed a President resign in disgrace after being involved in a criminal cover-up. They were told that America was exceptional and their children would live better than they did, but that is not what happened. If they were part of the white, Christian majority they came expect certain social norms and personal privileges, all of which were challenged by the spread of Liberal ideals and the election of a black president. For example, more Americans see the "End Times" as near because of Gay Marriage than other, more rational threats like Russia or even Islam. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/....04df025ec632; http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-...imes-are-right). They were told that trade deals like NAFTA would bring prosperity, but all they saw were jobs departing for Mexico. All of this led to a disillusionment with the systems as it existed. That disillusionment resulted in a shift in value emphasis away from liberalism and towards nationalism. Trump was the beneficiary of that value shift.

    I don't see that Islam had any great affect on what I just described. But I am only talking about America. I would have to do a separate analysis for other countries, but I assume much of the same factors come into play. In Europe you could certainly make the argument that the refugees, who were refusing to assimilate, along with terrorist attacks, had a greater impact. In the US, that impact was replicated by the Mexicans crossing the boarder and killing pour, innocent white women.
    Last edited by TheCurmudgeon; 12-09-2016 at 08:12 PM.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
    ---

  20. #180
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    1,117

    Default

    ... of course, when they write that history of the collapse of American Democracy, they will be writing in it Cyrillic.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
    ---

Similar Threads

  1. Germany (catch all, incl. terrorism)
    By DDilegge in forum Europe
    Replies: 355
    Last Post: 06-28-2019, 03:43 PM
  2. LG Hal Mcmaster, National Security Adviser (2017 onwards)
    By SWJ Blog in forum Politics In the Rear
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-05-2018, 01:35 AM
  3. Syria in 2016 (October onwards)
    By OUTLAW 09 in forum Middle East
    Replies: 2624
    Last Post: 12-31-2016, 12:32 PM
  4. The Army: A Profession of Arms
    By Chuck Grenchus, CAPE in forum Miscellaneous Goings On
    Replies: 160
    Last Post: 07-08-2014, 04:00 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •