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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    Hanoi had a strategic and Pyrrhic victory over along with a tactical defeat to the U.S.

    Beijing and Pyongyang suffered strategic defeats.

    Operation Desert Storm does count amigo, because no one knew exactly how effective the Second Offset/AirLand Battle would be, and various members of Bush's NSC were suggesting that tactical nuclear weapons be considered for use.
    But you still do not get it...they walked away as "winners".....as they were in fact willing to take the massive loses as they knew the West could not absorb the same loses..it was a game of staying power and they "stayed..we left"....

    As one involved on Desert Storm tact nukes were never discussed nor even in the AOR....nor were the handlers of tact nukes ever placed on alert and move status...

    Secondly, what is far more interesting is did Bush actually sucker the US and Saddam into the war.....US intel assets inside the Indications and Warnings divisions repeatedly warned Bush of Saddam's invasion moves...and you know things are serious with you pick up tank commanders talking 600 meters from the Kuwait border and you warn the President physically of an impending invasion AND YET that President does nothing but wait for the crossing to happen....

    Saddam/we got suckered...simple as that...

    BTW...hate to disappoint you but everyone knew Air/Land Battle would work...go back and reread the Soviet MoD comments on it...Kuwait just allowed them to array two full Corps on the ground...which one could never exercise in Germany...as an arrayed Corp takes up a lot of space....the German defense and attack model did not foresee an arrayed Corp but several attack fronts once the Soviets came to a stand still...
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 05-04-2017 at 06:21 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
    But you still do not get it...they walked away as "winners".....as they were in fact willing to take the massive loses as they knew the West could not absorb the same loses...it was a game of staying power and they "stayed...we left"...
    Are you referring solely to the NLF/NVA? Yes they did.

    The U.S. campaign in Vietnam was doomed because of:

    • Poor intelligence and therefore understanding of the conflict i.e. not Korea redux
    • An overly ambitious objective i.e. a strong and friendly state in South Vietnam
    • A restricted commitment in order to placate Beijing and Moscow on the one hand, and the American electorate on the other


    Imagine if the U.S. had simply denied the Communists control of Vietnam, relying upon anti-Communist insurgents, small special forces/intelligence teams, and airpower…

    Yet returning to the issue of comparing conventional warfare with guerrilla warfare and subversion, every strictly conventional war that the U.S. has fought with major ground forces has been far more costly to those soldiers than the counter-insurgencies in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq (*).

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
    As one involved on Desert Storm tact nukes were never discussed nor even in the AOR....nor were the handlers of tact nukes ever placed on alert and move status...

    BTW...hate to disappoint you but everyone knew Air/Land Battle would work...go back and reread the Soviet MoD comments on it...Kuwait just allowed them to array two full Corps on the ground...which one could never exercise in Germany...as an arrayed Corp takes up a lot of space....the German defense and attack model did not foresee an arrayed Corp but several attack fronts once the Soviets came to a stand-still...
    On the contrary, according to Khalizad and Bush himself, Cheney among others, advocating using tactical nuclear weapons. Bush, of course, was strongly opposed, but the mere suggestion indicates the anxiety over Iraq’s conventional capabilities. Indeed, the U.S. forces committed at the beginning of 1991 indicate a major overreaction to the possibility of war.

    The threat that the U.S. faced from Iraq in 1991 was the Soviet one, in miniature, and although a U.S. victory was assured, there was anxiety over how costly that victory would be. Would quality overcome quantity, and to what degree? If liberating Kuwait was hard-fought then the ramifications would be felt by NATO forces in Germany opposite the crumbling Warsaw Pact and the still formidable Soviet Union, as well as the U.S. forces in the Asia-Pacific facing North Korea and China.

    If you are intending to claim that “everyone” knew that AirLand Battle would work as advertised, then why did Hussein not back down?

    Moreover, why did the Soviets express surprise at the effectiveness of U.S. doctrine and technology in action as the following sources indicate?



    In 1990, 39% of the total U.S. combat aircraft inventory was deployed to Desert Storm, whereas 30% was deployed to Iraqi Freedom, and elements of the latter were already in theater supporting the ongoing NFZ/NDZ in Iraq and Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09
    Secondly, what is far more interesting is did Bush actually sucker the US and Saddam into the war.....US intel assets inside the Indications and Warnings divisions repeatedly warned Bush of Saddam's invasion moves...and you know things are serious with you pick up tank commanders talking 600 meters from the Kuwait border and you warn the President physically of an impending invasion AND YET that President does nothing but wait for the crossing to happen...Saddam/we got suckered...simple as that...
    So because it’s rainy in Berlin, you’re using tinfoil to stay dry while on your soap box? :P

    Hussein had more than five months to withdraw from Kuwait and refused to do so despite the Desert Shield build up in Saudi Arabia and the UNSCR authorizing force to expel Iraqi forces. If those gathering Desert Storm clouds – pun intended – did not convince Hussein, how could Bush have done so in 1990?




    * Referring to the Civil War, World War I, World War II and the Korean War

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azor View Post
    Are you referring solely to the NLF/NVA? Yes they did.

    The U.S. campaign in Vietnam was doomed because of:

    • Poor intelligence and therefore understanding of the conflict i.e. not Korea redux
    • An overly ambitious objective i.e. a strong and friendly state in South Vietnam
    • A restricted commitment in order to placate Beijing and Moscow on the one hand, and the American electorate on the other


    Imagine if the U.S. had simply denied the Communists control of Vietnam, relying upon anti-Communist insurgents, small special forces/intelligence teams, and airpower…

    Yet returning to the issue of comparing conventional warfare with guerrilla warfare and subversion, every strictly conventional war that the U.S. has fought with major ground forces has been far more costly to those soldiers than the counter-insurgencies in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq (*).



    On the contrary, according to Khalizad and Bush himself, Cheney among others, advocating using tactical nuclear weapons. Bush, of course, was strongly opposed, but the mere suggestion indicates the anxiety over Iraq’s conventional capabilities. Indeed, the U.S. forces committed at the beginning of 1991 indicate a major overreaction to the possibility of war.

    The threat that the U.S. faced from Iraq in 1991 was the Soviet one, in miniature, and although a U.S. victory was assured, there was anxiety over how costly that victory would be. Would quality overcome quantity, and to what degree? If liberating Kuwait was hard-fought then the ramifications would be felt by NATO forces in Germany opposite the crumbling Warsaw Pact and the still formidable Soviet Union, as well as the U.S. forces in the Asia-Pacific facing North Korea and China.

    If you are intending to claim that “everyone” knew that AirLand Battle would work as advertised, then why did Hussein not back down?

    Moreover, why did the Soviets express surprise at the effectiveness of U.S. doctrine and technology in action as the following sources indicate?



    In 1990, 39% of the total U.S. combat aircraft inventory was deployed to Desert Storm, whereas 30% was deployed to Iraqi Freedom, and elements of the latter were already in theater supporting the ongoing NFZ/NDZ in Iraq and Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan.



    So because it’s rainy in Berlin, you’re using tinfoil to stay dry while on your soap box? :P

    Hussein had more than five months to withdraw from Kuwait and refused to do so despite the Desert Shield build up in Saudi Arabia and the UNSCR authorizing force to expel Iraqi forces. If those gathering Desert Storm clouds – pun intended – did not convince Hussein, how could Bush have done so in 1990?




    * Referring to the Civil War, World War I, World War II and the Korean War
    I find it interesting that you have never participated in either VN nor Desert Storm nor sat in the actual planning phases of DS or even during the Cold War in Germany yet you quote like wild....

    If you really did do your research on SVN you might have noticed that actually the SVN Army was holding up well and with heavy B52 strikes effectively stopped the NVA Easter invasion in it's tracks and pushed them back into Laos and Cambodia...

    The NVA licked it wounds and waited...WHAT exactly was the next US government move...they simply cut off SVN from any further military aid...and then the NVA moved again.

    If you the reread a lot of the 1975 battlefield reports coming from SVN army/marine units...they basically ran out of ammo and there was nothing there to supply them with and then broke and ran....

    Back to tact nukes..US politicians can talk all they want to but at no time were the handlers of those weapons "alerted to move" a key sign they were going to be used.....so again understand what you are talking about.

    BTW you avoided my comments on the I&W warning Bush but Bush not reacting...why was that...if you knew the history behind I&W and their mission and where they sit in the IC and the role they play in national level command authority decisions you should have jumped on my comments but you did not.....

    Long time I&W types who are very in tune to intel openly questioned what Bush was up in totally ignoring their warnings even SIX hours before the actual invasion and they called it to the exact invasion minute....Bush could have forewarned Kuwaiti forces but did not..but no action from a sitting US President...they indicate that had he gone on national TV and laid out all the intel evidence down to SIGINT as the buildup was occurring Saddam would not have invaded...but he did nothing....

    Their reasoning is still today this and it has not changed with time...he wanted the war with Saddam...

    But somehow we do not talk about that do we Azor?
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 05-05-2017 at 06:38 AM.

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    Azor...BTW you are badly off topic so drop this line and get back to answering what CrowBat and I have posted....which is far more interesting that reliving the past...

    What is ongoing now in Syria will directly impact and badly impact the US in the coming decade and Trump is leading the US down that path in a worse way than did Obama...

    So prove me wrong...

    Tin foil hat off now...

    Why do I say that....the Russian Trump connections will draw Trump far more into trying to survive it and will thus cause US FP to drift in a way never seen before...much like the Nixon WH days after the Watergate break in....

    And as we have seen with the TLAM/MOAB strikes that impressed no one he shots to distract not to underline a strategic strategy...

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    Azor...this is why you must pay more attention to what CrowBat and I both post here.....

    Although in Iraq..this is a serious indicator of IS eventually going back to gerrilla warfare from which they evolved in the first place.....

    I saw the first versions of this in a major battle in Diyala 2005...and it has further evolved....

    They will never be "militarily defeated"...

    The first launcher is a standardised anti-tank weapon cobbled together by IS in Mosul. The second appears to fire a more powerful rocket.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    BREAKING
    Infighting between Turkish backed Lisa Sultan Murad and Ahrar al-Sham in western and southern entrance of Jarablus. (ANHA)

    Abu Ibrahim, president of al-Bab's Military Council, has been hospitalized after an assassination attempt by unknown assailants few today.

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    Azor...heads up ..now tell me what the Trump FP response will be on this....and then check the actual locations of the four safe zones....you will notice somethin...but will allow you to "see" the connection to this statement...

    Russia: Syria safe zones to be shut for U.S., coalition planes - agencies
    http://reut.rs/2qGMQdR

    Russia says U.S. coalition forbidden from operating in planned Syria safe zones
    http://tass.ru/politika/4233897?utm_..._social_share#
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 05-05-2017 at 07:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Azor...this is why you must pay more attention to what CrowBat and I both post here.....

    Although in Iraq..this is a serious indicator of IS eventually going back to gerrilla warfare from which they evolved in the first place.....

    I saw the first versions of this in a major battle in Diyala 2005...and it has further evolved....

    They will never be "militarily defeated"...

    The first launcher is a standardised anti-tank weapon cobbled together by IS in Mosul. The second appears to fire a more powerful rocket.
    Azor...BTW...all this talk about "defeating IS" is exactly what it is..."talk"...while they are supposedly losing in Mosul and Raqqa...IS is back into their standard sanctuary of Diyala and the Diyala River Basin which was their fall back position every time they got pushed out of Mosul...Ramadi..Baghdad..etc...from 2003 until 2010.

    THIS has to be the 90th time US and or Iraqi forces have moved into Diyala....

    Iraqi forces launch an "extensive operations" to root out Isis in Diyala after latest Isis attacks

    IS is back to the basics again..guerrilla warfare and they practice that very well....

    There are areas in the Diyala River Basin that make the jungles of SVN look "friendly"....

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    Trump to Tell Turkey: We’re Going to Take Raqqa With the Kurds
    The White House is poised to greenlight an Obama administration plan to seize the last bastion of the Islamic State in Syria.

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/05/...ith-the-kurds/

    If in fact confirmed then Turkey might in fact now nudge themselves ever closer to Russia as they view the US in the same light as the PKK...AND they now know that the countless US official statements given to Turkey concerning US support to and control of PKK are basically a farce...and not to be trusted....this might in fact be why they agreed to the Russian/Iranian proposed safe zones agreement...when the FSA did not agree to them....

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