Russo-Ukraine War 2017-2018

[davidbfpo]

There have been a few posts on the attitude of Ukrainians towards Russia and why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".

Twenty years ago I visited western Ukraine, centred around Lviv or Lvov, which had been Polish until 1939. I have three abiding memories of talking to our hots, professional architects. One was a remark when we stopped at a war memorial, with a plaque for WW2 from 1939-1947; I was puzzled at the post-1945 extension and was told about the Ukrainian resistance to the return of Soviet rule.

Then we visited a small museum in a medium sized villa in Lvov, which had a display of civic or state funerals after independence (in 1991) and I asked what they were. One host explained the funerals were for victims of the Soviet state when Lvov became Soviet again in July 1944. Adding many victims were not reclaimed by their families who feared the Soviets / Russians would return one day exacting revenge.

A glimpse into the 1944 history comes in:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_uprising

Finally at our final dinner a host asked our group (all "Westerners") 'Not to forget us, we are West Europeans'. I never imagined the Ukraine was part of Western Europe, but they did.

The Ukraine's modern history is bloody and rightly they fear / feared an end to their independence after 1991.

[OUTLAW 09]

Reportedly Svitlodarsk city is under MLRS GRAD shelling

Horlivka: Outgoing MLRS Grad from city's north

[OUTLAW 09]

There have been a few posts on the attitude of Ukrainians towards Russia and why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".

Twenty years ago I visited western Ukraine, centred around Lviv or Lvov, which had been Polish until 1939. I have three abiding memories of talking to our hots, professional architects. One was a remark when we stopped at a war memorial, with a plaque for WW2 from 1939-1947; I was puzzled at the post-1945 extension and was told about the Ukrainian resistance to the return of Soviet rule.

Then we visited a small museum in a medium sized villa in Lvov, which had a display of civic or state funerals after independence (in 1991) and I asked what they were. One host explained the funerals were for victims of the Soviet state when Lvov became Soviet again in July 1944. Adding many victims were not reclaimed by their families who feared the Soviets / Russians would return one day exacting revenge.

A glimpse into the 1944 history comes in:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_uprising

Finally at our final dinner a host asked our group (all "Westerners") 'Not to forget us, we are West Europeans'. I never imagined the Ukraine was part of Western Europe, but they did.

The Ukraine's modern history is bloody and rightly they fear / feared an end to their independence after 1991.

Azor..what you apparently failed to see with Maidan was a birth of the Ukrainian identity which they created themselves during the Maidan and that is driving them today...the national pride in standing up to power is sometimes a far stronger feeling than all the nationalism of say a Trump....

Maidan was not about a single age group but cut across all ages and levels of education...1,762 dead UAF later they still are defending Maidan...and not even the US can effectively counter Russian information and cyber warfare...Ukraine is doing a good job of it though....

The support of the general public is still very much there...with every burial of a UAF soldier as he is carried to where ever he is being buried the local people line the roads on bended knees in respect..that does not even happen on the US...

https://youtu.be/UUnuQ998Gq8
Ukrainian

https://youtu.be/D8HqRH5cHPo
Ukrainian

https://youtu.be/Bd05t-d2GIY
EN

https://youtu.be/CT7hTVMrwQo
EN

At Maidan a Ukrainian national identity was born and the drive to become of a "European" was achieved........and Russia lost forever Ukraine.....

That Russian loss will be sealed forever with the EU visa freedom on 1 JUN 2017....

That was not the case of most of the other Eastern European countries that broke away after 1991....BTW none of these countries have made the strongest set of reform laws in just under three years..that Ukraine has even in the face of continued corruption and war....not even the Baltics...

AND Russia is ever so slowly heading towards a "Maidan"...and Putin knows it.....

Signs of the times at Moscow rally against mass demolitions: "When they came for me..." and "Stop stealing."

Russian libertarians protest against state overreach and for property rights at rally against mass demolitions in Moscow.
BUT WAIT...the US Do not Tread on Me flag might be used in Russian propaganda as proof of this being a CIA led demo and "regime change"....

Thousands of people now chanting for Moscow mayor @MosSobyanin's resignation. And the political opposition had nothing to do with this

Guess who´s back from eye treatment in Barcelona and visiting the rally against demolotion of 8000 appartment blocs in Moscow.

"Muscovites are not deer."

[OUTLAW 09]

Russian improved T-72B3 tanks spotted in military convoy near Ukrainian border

http://defence-blog.com/army/russian...n-border.html#

[OUTLAW 09]

US Global Hawk #UAV #drone @ 51,000ft over Ukraine approaching the Russian border

[OUTLAW 09]

Russia has started a new battle, attacking north from occupied Horlivka towards free Zaitseve.
https://twitter.com/thunderbolt1488/...1443787997184#

[OUTLAW 09]

Vodyane-#Sakhanka area near #Mariupol - battle ongoing, incl. with heavy artillery.

Ukraine reports 4 WIAs amid 61 enemy attacks in last day

[Azor]

There have been a few posts on the attitude of Ukrainians towards Russia and why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".

Twenty years ago I visited western Ukraine, centred around Lviv or Lvov, which had been Polish until 1939. I have three abiding memories of talking to our hots, professional architects. One was a remark when we stopped at a war memorial, with a plaque for WW2 from 1939-1947; I was puzzled at the post-1945 extension and was told about the Ukrainian resistance to the return of Soviet rule.

Then we visited a small museum in a medium sized villa in Lvov, which had a display of civic or state funerals after independence (in 1991) and I asked what they were. One host explained the funerals were for victims of the Soviet state when Lvov became Soviet again in July 1944. Adding many victims were not reclaimed by their families who feared the Soviets / Russians would return one day exacting revenge.

A glimpse into the 1944 history comes in:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_uprising

Finally at our final dinner a host asked our group (all "Westerners") 'Not to forget us, we are West Europeans'. I never imagined the Ukraine was part of Western Europe, but they did.

The Ukraine's modern history is bloody and rightly they fear / feared an end to their independence after 1991.

David,

I must interject here.

In 1939, Lwow was inhabited primarily by ethnic Poles and Jews, with ethnic Ukrainians in the surrounding countryside. The Ukrainians resented Polish rule and mainly welcomed the Soviet invasion in 1939, even assisting the NKVD in deporting ethnic Poles considered threatening to Soviet rule. Yet by 1941 the Ukrainians had learned that Stalin was less than interested in Ukrainian self-determination, and had turned his attention to Ukrainian nationalists. Thus, the Germans found a warm welcome in the Summer of 1941. Ethnic Ukrainians in Lwow captured Jewish women, stripped them naked, raped them and paraded them through the streets before murdering them.

During World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its militant arm the Ukrainian Insurgent Army went on a rampage after Operation Barbarossa began, murdering and torturing ethnic Poles and Jews. Even up to the end of 1953, the UIA had killed far more Jewish and Polish civilians than German and Soviet soldiers combined.

The uprising you speak of was by the Polish Home Army (AK) in 1944, which was involved in clashes with the UIA as part of the protection of Polish villages in Galicia and Volhynia.

The Ukrainians are as bad about re-writing history in their favor as Stalin was, who had no problem counting all deaths in eastern Poland or in Soviet GULags as victims of Germany.

Note that during the Cossack uprising in the late 17th Century - Ukraine's other "heroic" act - 80-90% of the Cossack's victims were Jewish civilians, not Polish soldiers.

I am proud of what the Ukrainians did in late 2013 and early 2014, but it remains to be seen what price they want to pay to wrest true independence from Russia, or whether they were enticed by subsidies and potential remittances.

[davidbfpo]

David,

I must interject here.

In 1939, Lwow was inhabited primarily by ethnic Poles and Jews, with ethnic Ukrainians in the surrounding countryside. The Ukrainians resented Polish rule and mainly welcomed the Soviet invasion in 1939, even assisting the NKVD in deporting ethnic Poles considered threatening to Soviet rule. Yet by 1941 the Ukrainians had learned that Stalin was less than interested in Ukrainian self-determination, and had turned his attention to Ukrainian nationalists. Thus, the Germans found a warm welcome in the Summer of 1941. Ethnic Ukrainians in Lwow captured Jewish women, stripped them naked, raped them and paraded them through the streets before murdering them.

During World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its militant arm the Ukrainian Insurgent Army went on a rampage after Operation Barbarossa began, murdering and torturing ethnic Poles and Jews. Even up to the end of 1953, the UIA had killed far more Jewish and Polish civilians than German and Soviet soldiers combined.

The uprising you speak of was by the Polish Home Army (AK) in 1944, which was involved in clashes with the UIA as part of the protection of Polish villages in Galicia and Volhynia.

The Ukrainians are as bad about re-writing history in their favor as Stalin was, who had no problem counting all deaths in eastern Poland or in Soviet Gulags as victims of Germany.

Note that during the Cossack uprising in the late 17th Century - Ukraine's other "heroic" act - 80-90% of the Cossack's victims were Jewish civilians, not Polish soldiers.

I am proud of what the Ukrainians did in late 2013 and early 2014, but it remains to be seen what price they want to pay to wrest true independence from Russia, or whether they were enticed by subsidies and potential remittances.

Azor,

I am aware of much of the history you cite and I would recommend, possibly again, this excellent history book: 'Borderland: A Journey through the history of Ukraine' by Anna Reid, pub. 1997. A second edition was published in 2015, with good reviews here:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderland-.../dp/1780229275

All those who hosted us were Ukrainians and some undoubtedly had been Communist Party members, probably to ensure professional advancement.

I offer my memories as they indicate why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".

[OUTLAW 09]

Azor,

I am aware of much of the history you cite and I would recommend, possibly again, this excellent history book: 'Borderland: A Journey through the history of Ukraine' by Anna Reid, pub. 1997. A second edition was published in 2015, with good reviews here:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderland-.../dp/1780229275

All those who hosted us were Ukrainians and some undoubtedly had been Communist Party members, probably to ensure professional advancement.

I offer my memories as they indicate why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".

There is nothing wrong in being a former Communist Party member....that was how one survived in the former East Bloc....as no one ever thought the Wall would come down....

[OUTLAW 09]

April 2014, Remains of a Ukrainian military convoy ambushed by Russian-backed separatists
https://lecturis.nl/en/product/war-in-ukraine/ …

[OUTLAW 09]

Leader Of 1953 Soviet Gulag Uprising Dies In Ukraine At 90
https://www.rferl.org/a/28489267.html

RU MP Leonid Kalashnikov (KPRF): If the Donbas conflict escalates and Ukraine switches to active mil actions,
RU may recognize 'republics'

RU MP #Kobzon seeks to create a "tourism claster" in "LDNR"
http://www.rbc.ru/politics/15/05/201...79476ba235e512 …

Has he forgotten that the Donbas is a part of Ukraine?

[OUTLAW 09]

Worth watching. Good ppl @usosce have compiled factual video on Russia's manufactured conflict in #Ukraine #Donbass
https://www.facebook.com/osce.usmiss...8585541490350/ …

49 attacks on Ukrainian positions yesterday, 6 soldiers were wounded

Donetsk, 9.30 pm - A battle is heard for more than 2 hours now. Heavy artillery and all as usual. #Minsk?

[Azor]

Azor,

I am aware of much of the history you cite and I would recommend, possibly again, this excellent history book: 'Borderland: A Journey through the history of Ukraine' by Anna Reid, pub. 1997. A second edition was published in 2015, with good reviews here:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Borderland-.../dp/1780229275

All those who hosted us were Ukrainians and some undoubtedly had been Communist Party members, probably to ensure professional advancement.

I offer my memories as they indicate why for years they appeared to be silent - until the Maidan "moment".

Thank you for the recommendation, David. In return, I would recommend Snyder’s “Bloodlands”. I will say that despite mentioning Ukrainian anti-Semitism, Reid devotes more time to excusing mass murders committed by the Cossacks and UIA than detailing the crimes themselves.

However, the fact is that the Ukrainians of the Lwow/Lvov/Lviv area collaborated with the NKVD in 1939 and the Germans from 1941 on (the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police were established before the UIA), and only fought the Soviets from 1944 on. Ethnic Ukrainians did suffer somewhat under Soviet rule in 1939-1941, but overall the Soviets were anti-Polish and the executions and enslavement reflect this bias. The UIA engaged in some sporadic clashes with the Germans, but there was overlapping membership between the UIA and various auxiliary and SS units, and a rough and unspoken truce for most of the war.

Therefore, their World War II memorial is less than factual. I remain puzzled why you associated the Lwow Uprising by the AK with ethnic Ukrainians, given that it was by ethnic Poles.

The criminals of the OUN and UIA are still lionized in Galicia and Volhynia today, and the black-and-red flag has been prominent in pro-EU/anti-Russian protests in Kiev. How is lionizing war criminals in any way Western, considering what the West meted out to Germany, Japan and Serbia? There is not even an attempt here to dissociate with these crimes, as the French and Italians have tried i.e. every Frenchman or Italian was part of the resistance, etc.

Now, we can say that Ukrainians are ignorant of their history or suffering collective trauma from Stalin and Hitler, but the starting point has to be the truth.

Nor is this problem limited to Ukraine. The Belgians, Danish and Dutch had far more collaborators and volunteers than resisters to the Germans, and the French and Norwegians are roughly even.

[OUTLAW 09]

David,

I must interject here.

In 1939, Lwow was inhabited primarily by ethnic Poles and Jews, with ethnic Ukrainians in the surrounding countryside. The Ukrainians resented Polish rule and mainly welcomed the Soviet invasion in 1939, even assisting the NKVD in deporting ethnic Poles considered threatening to Soviet rule. Yet by 1941 the Ukrainians had learned that Stalin was less than interested in Ukrainian self-determination, and had turned his attention to Ukrainian nationalists. Thus, the Germans found a warm welcome in the Summer of 1941. Ethnic Ukrainians in Lwow captured Jewish women, stripped them naked, raped them and paraded them through the streets before murdering them.

During World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and its militant arm the Ukrainian Insurgent Army went on a rampage after Operation Barbarossa began, murdering and torturing ethnic Poles and Jews. Even up to the end of 1953, the UIA had killed far more Jewish and Polish civilians than German and Soviet soldiers combined.

The uprising you speak of was by the Polish Home Army (AK) in 1944, which was involved in clashes with the UIA as part of the protection of Polish villages in Galicia and Volhynia.

The Ukrainians are as bad about re-writing history in their favor as Stalin was, who had no problem counting all deaths in eastern Poland or in Soviet GULags as victims of Germany.

Note that during the Cossack uprising in the late 17th Century - Ukraine's other "heroic" act - 80-90% of the Cossack's victims were Jewish civilians, not Polish soldiers.

I am proud of what the Ukrainians did in late 2013 and early 2014, but it remains to be seen what price they want to pay to wrest true independence from Russia, or whether they were enticed by subsidies and potential remittances.

To quote the Ukrainian President...with visa free travel we are now no longer tied to russia....