Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 34 of 34

Thread: Gendarmerie / Paramilitary Policing (again)

  1. #21
    Council Member Morgan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Indiana/ KSA
    Posts
    51

    Default

    David, I think you may be referring to the Marine Corp Law Enforcement Battalions. The Army used to have Constabulary Groups during post-WW2 Europe and several years ago, an article advocated bringing those back during the Iraq War http://www.armytimes.com/community/o...1225/….I think it would make sense to have them for future use as well.

  2. #22
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12,279

    Default

    Morgan,

    Thank you. Yes it is the Marine Corps Law Enforcement Battalions, which on a quick Google check have an active and reserve component.

    Hopefully such formations learn from outside the USA too. The RCMP and the Australian Federal Police (AFP) have considerable UN experience, plus the key European Gendarmerie nations and a few others beyond - India comes to mind, with a variety of para-miltary formations. I am sure they'd be welcome in Northern Ireland too - not on the street though!
    davidbfpo

  3. #23
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    1,117

    Default Learn something new every time I come here

    Carl,

    I never really thought of the US Army as a large force prior to WWI. I was wrong to use the term "draft" since it has a specific meaning. Volunteer would have been better. I have always had the misconception that it was a small force (15-20K) that grew as needed to deal with specific situations (the civil war, the Indian wars). I never really thought of them as occupying anything outside of the America's other than the Philippines until the twentieth century with the Philippines being their only real occupation experience.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
    ---

  4. #24
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    3,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCurmudgeon View Post
    Carl,

    I never really thought of the US Army as a large force prior to WWI. I was wrong to use the term "draft" since it has a specific meaning. Volunteer would have been better. I have always had the misconception that it was a small force (15-20K) that grew as needed to deal with specific situations (the civil war, the Indian wars). I never really thought of them as occupying anything outside of the America's other than the Philippines until the twentieth century with the Philippines being their only real occupation experience.
    Curmudgeon, you're correct when it comes to the size of the Army prior to World War I. State Volunteer units were involved in the early stages of the Philippines, but most of them were gone by about 1902.

    The Army never really "grew" to deal with the Indian Wars. It expanded slightly after the Civil War to deal with the greater expanse of territory it needed to cover, but remained at more or less the same strength from 1866 until 1898. In fact, it shrank between 1866 and 1870 (mainly in terms of infantry regiments - cavalry remained constant at 10 regiments). It also never really took in Volunteer units...in fact they were normally resisted as being more trouble (and expense) than they were worth. There are exceptions, but they were not the norm by any means.

    It has been argued that Frontier duty was really more like constabulary duty, which might explain why some Army officers performed well in the Philippines. Linn's work has shown that this wasn't always the case, and it certainly doesn't explain the Marine Corps' record in this area. Bickel's "Mars Learning" is really worth reading when it comes to studying how "lessons learned" may or may not have influenced doctrine in this area.
    "On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
    T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War

  5. #25
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Berkshire County, Mass.
    Posts
    896

    Default

    Is there some standard definition of gendarme? As an American their role alludes me. Are any or both of the following correct?

    • Their jurisdiction is outside of that of local agencies, meaning that they do some of what state troopers and FBI agents do in the U.S.
    • They have civil as well as military jurisdiction, thus obviating the need for MPs.
    If you donít read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. Ė Mark Twain (attributed)

  6. #26
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12,279

    Default What is a Gendarmerie?

    The Wiki gives a definition as:
    A gendarmerie or gendarmery is in principle a military force charged with police duties among civilian populations. Members of such a force are typically called "gendarmes". The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary describes a gendarme as "a soldier who is employed on police duties" and a "gendarmery, -erie" as "gendarmes as a body".
    Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie

    Later it says:
    In comparison to civilian police forces, gendarmeries may provide a more disciplined force whose military capabilities make them more capable of dealing with armed groups and with all types of violence.
    Generally they are national bodies, which historically have been for internal defence - of the state against threats and not with responsibility for the breadth of roles normally associated with civilian law enforcement. The emphasis is on group action, so they are often based on a company equivalent; in many places working away from their homes.

    In Western Europe their responsibilities are now far wider, especially when internal defence has declined and public disorder is now irregular.

    I cannot think of any US LE body being like a Gendarmerie.
    davidbfpo

  7. #27
    Council Member Morgan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Indiana/ KSA
    Posts
    51

    Default

    I think the closest thing we (USA) have to "gendarmes" is the Coast Guard. As for any other US gendarme force, the only other example I can think of is the US Constabulary Groups in post-WW2 Europe. You may want to examine the latter to get an idea of what gendarmeries do....also look at the Canadian Mounties, Italian Carabineri, or Spanish Guardia Civil.

  8. #28
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    1,117

    Default A distinction with a difference

    I seem to have run into a difference in definitions or at least application. It would appear that most military gendarmerie are used as a police force WITHIN the country of ther origin. What I am looking at is a force intended to conduct police type operations OUTSIDE their country of origin. Much more like the US constabulary forces after WWII. I am not sure any force like that exists.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
    ---

  9. #29
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12,279

    Default A distinction with a difference - partial answer

    Good point, but a number of UN peacekeeping missions have successfully used para-military units, invariably from nations with an armed gendarmerie, first for the occasional public order / riot control duties and when there is a preference for a less military response to situations. Plus the situation may make deploying traditional police officers simply too risky.

    A number of European nations have earmarked deployable units, usually the French, Italians and Spanish, for international missions. I exclude SWAT teams. When I looked at this issue a few years ago both Australia (AFP) and Canada (RCMP) had small teams available to deploy.

    You are right I cannot think of any Western nation that has:
    a force intended to conduct police type operations OUTSIDE their country of origin.
    davidbfpo

  10. #30
    Council Member ganulv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Berkshire County, Mass.
    Posts
    896

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    A number of European nations have earmarked deployable units, usually the French, Italians and Spanish, for international missions. I exclude SWAT teams. When I looked at this issue a few years ago both Australia (AFP) and Canada (RCMP) had small teams available to deploy.
    There is the USMC Security Force Regiment. Neither exactly SWAT nor gendarme, if I understand correctly.
    If you donít read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. Ė Mark Twain (attributed)

  11. #31
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Woodbridge, VA
    Posts
    1,117

    Default Perhaps the right idea, but the wrong force.

    Quote Originally Posted by ganulv View Post
    There is the USMC Security Force Regiment. Neither exactly SWAT nor gendarme, if I understand correctly.
    I think I like the idea, I just think they are in the wrong branch. The Marines should not be an occupation force (constabulary force), and that is where I see the gendarmerie conceptually being used. The Marines are a short duration force, at least as I understand them. This mission should fall to the Army (under the American force structure).
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
    ---

  12. #32
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12,279

    Default Gendarmerie / Paramilitary Policing (again)

    Thanks to a "lurker" for the pointer to this July 2016 Australian article, 'An Australian Gendarmerie Force' on the Australian Army's blog. The role of a paramilitary gendarmerie, even a military police unit or whatever label is attached has appeared in several threads. Ah, the USA has called them constabulary units (post-1945 Europe).

    Neat summary:
    As the dichotomy between war and crime breaks down, ensuring a response to complex emergencies that blends domestic policing with military operations makes increasing sense. A gendarmerie force is a force that has this versatility inbuilt into it, it is a force capable of operating appropriately amongst a community and being the thin blue line, while at the same time delivering military objectives, both on its own or with military forces, should circumstances dictate.
    Link:https://www.army.gov.au/our-future/b...armerie-force?

    Recently we have seen Russian and now Chechen military police deployed in Syria; which must be their first overseas deployment beyond the former USSR.

    I also recall the UK during 'The Troubles' in Northern Ireland increased the size of the Royal Military Police and at one time the Army had 'primacy' over the RUC (local paramilitary police which was reformed and adapted to a different role).

    The UN has also tried to get such paramilitary units deployed, with mixed success as I recall and that includes all-female units, from Bangladesh IIRC in Africa.

    Other clearly relevant threads, (which were in different arenas and now all here) are:

    1) A Thin Blue Line in the Sand from 2011
    2) Federal Restrictions on using U.S. MPs for law enforcement on foreign soil from 2008
    3) What are the SWC thoughts on policing in combat? from 2008
    4) Cops or Police in Counterinsurgency COIN from 2016
    5) A RFI Paramilitary forces in Colombia's conflicts: literature?


    Searching again for Constabulary I found this thread U.S. Police in Peace and Stability Operations where ken White (who I miss a lot), Jedburgh and others chime in.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 04-17-2018 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Add link and last passage
    davidbfpo

  13. #33
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12,279

    Default Moderator at work

    Prompted by the next post on the Italian Carabinieri I have reviewed the threads in this arena and merged two. There was an old thread 'American Gendarmarie' now merged into this thread.

    The previous thread refers to five relevant threads - which on a review cannot be merged.
    davidbfpo

  14. #34
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12,279

    Default For Not-Quite-Wars, Italy Has a Useful Alternative to Traditional Troops

    An article lauding the contribution of the Italian Carabinieri:
    Currently some 500 Carabinieri are on foreign deployment, serving as part of 33 missions.....Perhaps even more significantly, some 160 Carabinieri serve as part of international Multinational Specialised Units in Bosnia and Kosovo, helping maintain public order, patrolling sensitive areas, and assisting the return of refugees and displaced persons.

    (Citing the Italian Chief of Defence) I’m really proud that the Carabinieri’s professionalism and capabilities are recognized worldwide, and we are ready and eager to offer to our allies and partners this distinctive ‘specialization of excellence.
    Link:https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/201...=DefenseOneTCO
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 04-17-2018 at 04:11 PM. Reason: 38,011v
    davidbfpo

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-07-2018, 08:56 PM
  2. Predictive Policing
    By Jedburgh in forum Law Enforcement
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01-21-2018, 12:35 PM
  3. Policing in the Middle East
    By Red Rat in forum RFIs & Members' Projects
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-11-2015, 06:18 PM
  4. What are the SWC thoughts on policing in combat?
    By Rob Thornton in forum Law Enforcement
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 04-28-2008, 02:41 AM
  5. On Policing the Frontiers of Freedom
    By SWJED in forum It Ain't Just Killin'
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-17-2006, 01:51 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •