Snipers Sniping & Countering them

[Schuld]

The Marine Corps' current rifleman, armed with a rifle combat optic, M16A4, and Gripod combination VFG/bipod closely approximates what a squad designated marksman needs to be capable of, if we ever had a need for one. No need to fancy Harris bipods or free-floating barrels. Enhanced training is the key for guys like that, but sustaining their training will always be the toughest part.

...I strongly believe that he needs a trained spotter. The spotter could be another equally capable DM, with his own weapon that is zero'd to his requirements.

To my mind, and that of the British Army and IDF an "Marksman is merely member of a fire team equipped with a 5.56mm weapon with a 20-inch barrel, optic sight, and bipod. He should be able to consistently hit targets out to 6-800m.

It seems that the current US experience is that a DM is as valued for observation skills as riflery skills, as in the example of Lance Cpl Wilson:

http://www.military.com/features/0,1...ml?ESRC=dod.nl

What's a good range requirement in an urbanized area? 800m...1,000m? We'd have to take a hard look at whether or not firing windows are posible out that far first, methinks.

Snipers are making those kind of urban shots, but then again one of the USMC advanced sniper courses is urban sniping. I know of a major school that reports lots of requests for training in making shots at fleeting targets at 400-600m -- so this would be the critical consideration for DM training.

To play the Devil's advocate, what are the advantages of a DM over an expert LMG gunner with a low-powered optic, the ability to squeeze off an accurate 3-5 round burst, and an assistant gunner acting as observer?

Slightly different ways of going about it but both agreed that the DM should not be a member of a standard squad or fire team.

As a historical footnote, one-per-squad was the plan in 1st Raiders. In each squad "Red Mike" had one "scout" who was supposed to be equipped with a scoped springfield in the original TO&E in the beginning of 1942. I've not found much on the Raider DM program, other than "Red Mike" dispatched Claude Harris back to set up the USMC West Coast sniping school in 1943. Lt Harris sent the top 5 graduates on to the Raider Training Center for 3 weeks of training (RTC was normally 8 weeks long). I don't know how many of the RTC-trained snipers went on to a Raider bn.

In Afganistan, were a lot of patrols are carried out by company-sized units, the contact demands (often) long range precision fire, that even .50 MG's are not able to provide.

The .338 Lapua is good out to roughly 1300 meters for an oxymoronic "average expert"-- this per a SOTIC plank holder -- just remember that snipers wish each other luck with "no wind, brother" for a reason! I know everyone wants to talk about amazing shots, but the attempts/successes formula has to be applied here.

Modern sniping is far more about qualification than operational role.

We might be wise to avoid thread drift into sniping!

I believe I understand what you're saying -- the historical evolution of sniping in the UK has led to the identification of a cluster of basic skill sets (scout-sniper-observer) that are infused into a soldier who then applies those to circumstances. American sniping has been hugely influenced by the UK -- the real, practical, and mostly unknown historical evolution of modern sniping, avoiding the confusion caused by history's broken threads.

I would like to say that the various current American military sniping programs do have slightly different qualifications depending upon perceived operational roles -- regular Army, USMC, and AF all currently run sniper programs here, and various commands within SOCOM run separate programs as well. In terms of comparison and contrast, for example, when the SEALs transitioned from dependence on the USMC basic course to their own (with SBS input), they created an 11-week course that included 2 weeks of photographic reconnaissance training. The Air Force school, on the other hand, gears itself largely to counter-terrorism/police SWAT-style operations and counter-sniper operations. In the American private sector I would describe the McMillan program as the most British, since they hired Mark Spicer to help run it!

[William F. Owen]

I believe I understand what you're saying -- the historical evolution of sniping in the UK has led to the identification of a cluster of basic skill sets (scout-sniper-observer) that are infused into a soldier who then applies those to circumstances. American sniping has been hugely influenced by the UK -- the real, practical, and mostly unknown historical evolution of modern sniping, avoiding the confusion caused by history's broken threads.

In the American private sector I would describe the McMillan program as the most British, since they hired Mark Spicer to help run it!

I'm impressed! Yes you are right!

I may want you on my side when I get into a huge bug fight with the Sniper Wing up at Brecon!

Mark Spicer as in the Sniper Instructor who wrote the book? Really? Good for him.

[Rifleman]

So, several folks have advocated four long range Riflemen per platoon as being about right. That's twelve for a company.

Now, if you put all twelve Riflemen in one squad under an experienced squad leader for administration and training, and made that squad part of a company weapons platoon, and attached four Riflemen out to each rifle platoon for operations.....

And if the company weapons platoon was led by a warrant officer weapons specialist who had once been an NCO, something similar to the Marine Gunners.....

Just thoughts, just thoughts.

[Norfolk]

So, several folks have advocated four long range Riflemen per platoon as being about right. That's twelve for a company.

Now, if you put all twelve Riflemen in one squad under an experienced squad leader for administration and training, and made that squad part of a company weapons platoon, and attached four Riflemen out to each rifle platoon for operations.....

And if the company weapons platoon was led by a warrant officer weapons specialist who had once been an NCO, something similar to the Marine Gunners.....

Just thoughts, just thoughts.

While we're at it, how 'bout we call them Jaegars?

[jcustis]

And if the company weapons platoon was led by a warrant officer weapons specialist who had once been an NCO, something similar to the Marine Gunners.....

My, my, my. That would be a splendid idea given the inherent complexity of heavier weapons. The difficulty lies in that it isn't easy to grow Marine Gunners. At least in the Corps, there would have to be a significant T/O shift to bring about that manpower change, and I don't know if the computer models could find a way to do it without tearing a hole in the fabric of the infantry. The selection of Marine Gunners is a carefully managed process, from what I know. No room for slackers or grunts who have been "faking the funk," along the way. I imagine there is still a sufficient pool to screen from.

One of the limiting factors is that this Wpns Plt commander would have to complete our Infantry Officer Course (unless a separate course was built up and out of the current Small Arms Weapons Instructor Cource [SAWIC]). Definitely an interesting idea, but the manpower tables are almost too much inertia.

Back to the DM issue, I think retaining this squad or so at the Wpns Plt level indeed makes sense. Keep the weapon something of the 7.62x51mm variety. It keeps another caliber out of the logistics grinder, and in a pinch, straight ball ammunition can be employed. We certainly did so with our M-14s, although every now and then the special "white box" ammo would show up and it was considered a gem to have it due to its ballistic consistency.

If we could go back a bit to what Schuld spoke of, what would we have DMs do? What sort of enabler do we want them to be? It is an important question b/c it means a lot to say that you want a basically-trained grunt to receive additional training on a heavier-caliber weapon and precision optic for the purpose of engagin targets beyond normal riflemen range, and means something considerable different to say you want him to be a keen observer, supporting arms controller, etc.

In order to complete the in-house DM package that FAST Co was running back in the '91-'95 timeframe, I underwent something on the order of a week training in scouting skills (classroom), followed by another 10 days of actual patrolling exercises with a section of DMs, and eventually a 10 day shooting package that included unknown/known distance shooting and field stalks. Considering our employment envelope, I considered myself well-trained.

[slapout9]

Back to the DM issue, I think retaining this squad or so at the Wpns Plt level indeed makes sense. Keep the weapon something of the 7.62x51mm variety. It keeps another caliber out of the logistics grinder, and in a pinch, straight ball ammunition can be employed. We certainly did so with our M-14s, although every now and then the special "white box" ammo would show up and it was considered a gem to have it due to its ballistic consistency.

If we could go back a bit to what Schuld spoke of, what would we have DMs do? What sort of enabler do we want them to be? It is an important question b/c it means a lot to say that you want a basically-trained grunt to receive additional training on a heavier-caliber weapon and precision optic for the purpose of engaging targets beyond normal riflemen range, and means something considerable different to say you want him to be a keen observer, supporting arms controller, etc.

I think this is a better direction to go. If we could create better marksman of all rifleman you would always have a personnel pool to choose from..you-you-you are designated marksman for this mission afterwords you revert back to your original job.

[Rifleman]

While we're at it, how 'bout we call them Jaegars?

Noooo! Few of the son's of the son's of Ulster who killed Patrick Ferguson at Kings Mountain would have identified with that word. I liked your first idea better: Riflemen, since the men with M4s are really modern Carbineers.

Now, what's the matter? Is my signature getting to you again? You know, I could always change it to this for you and Wilf:

"If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region, and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger" - George Washington at Valley Forge

Merry Christmas and no taxation without representation!

[William F. Owen]

Now, what's the matter? Is my signature getting to you again? You know, I could always change it to this for you and Wilf:

Hey buddy, don't touch nothing. My wife's grand parents both served time in British jails as terrorists. In fact, her grand parents organisation made several attempts on my grand fathers life!

[selil]

Now, what's the matter? Is my signature getting to you again?

It should be Scots Irish. You drink Scotch.

[Rifleman]

Yes, I've heard that and I understand that Scots or Scottish is the accepted term for people in Scotland. I'm certainly willing to acknowledge the Scots by whatever they want to be called.

But on the North American frontier the Ulster immigrants and their descendants called themselves Scotch-Irish, or "Scotch-Arsh" as my Appalachian grandpa would have said. It's an established term in those circles that goes back a ways:

http://www.scotchirish.net/What%20ab...he%20name.php4

Besides, they started making liquor out of corn almost as soon as they landed so they certainly didn't need to reserve the term Scotch for whiskey.

I reckon we've gone off course a ways, haven't we?

[Norfolk]

Noooo! Few of the son's of the son's of Ulster who killed Patrick Ferguson at Kings Mountain would have identified with that word. I liked your first idea better: Riflemen, since the men with M4s are really modern Carbineers.

Now, what's the matter? Is my signature getting to you again? You know, I could always change it to this for you and Wilf:

"If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region, and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger" - George Washington at Valley Forge

Merry Christmas and no taxation without representation!

Quite agreed on the "Rifleman" title for DMs - "Jaeger" (hehe) was a bit of a wind-up...and it worked! [Norfolk grins to self]

Ahhh, now I know where your true loyalities lie Rifleman...and I have been known to haunt the forests, mountains, and Bourbon distilleries of Appalacha'...but not necessarily in that order - and Bardstown!
I have Scots-Irish (Scotch-Arsh, just for you Rifleman) on my mother's American side - they came to the US rather late, in the 18th century.

I have never had the pleasure of traversing the fair Valley of the Shenandoah, nor the Blue Ridge, but I will take Phil Sheridan at his word that it makes for a rich and quite pleasant foraging ground...

And I do protest your implied assertion, Sir, that the denizens of Westminster are somehow less preferable to their upstart counterparts situated adjacent to Georgetown in handling matters of Public Taxation and Finance. I can discern no benefit to be had by having their lot so close at hand; indeed, had it not been for that Tax Revolt you fellows refer to as a "War of Independence", you might still possess the benefits of a lower tax rate, as what was levied in the Colonies was only a fraction of what was levied in the Mother Country...They after all, had Westminster resident amongst them, and had to pay for their immediate wants.

You see, "Taxation Without Representation" was actually a ticket to a lower Tax Burden than what you have now - with the added benefit of having the leviers of said Burden resident Over There. Hah! Now what do you say of your little Revolution now, eh whot?

But in all fairness, if it wasn't for my 1/8th Scots-Irish ancestry, I wouldn't be the Redneck Country Boy that I am today.

I do have a question for Wilf re the .338 Lapua/8.6 mm: A fine cartridge to be sure, but would the benefits of such a powerful round be unnecessary for a true Rifleman, even in the Skirmishing and Marksman roles - would not something in the 6.5 to 7.62 mm range be quite sufficient? I am concerned because the .338 is not suited for rapid-fire if that were needed, or is there another reason besides range and AP performance for considering the .338 in the Rifleman role?

[William F. Owen]

I do have a question for Wilf re the .338 Lapua/8.6 mm: A fine cartridge to be sure, but would the benefits of such a powerful round be unnecessary for a true Rifleman, even in the Skirmishing and Marksman roles - would not something in the 6.5 to 7.62 mm range be quite sufficient? I am concerned because the .338 is not suited for rapid-fire if that were needed, or is there another reason besides range and AP performance for considering the .338 in the Rifleman role?

All good questions.

a.) 8.6mm has a very flat trajectory. Even I can hit 1 x 0.5m boards at 1,000m.

b.) As concerns "skirmishing" the LRR operator has the same status as a GPMG gunner, except he can sling the thing on his back and carry a carbine. In an Owen Fire Team Group / Platoon, they would replace LMG gunners in the Recce teams.

c.) Unlike a .50, it can be fired from one knee, which becomes an issue in places that have terrain like Cyprus or the Lebanon, or that have long grass.

The reason I have studied the 8.6mm a fair bit is that it gives the platoon a measurable increase in performance for little added weight compared to other systems.

[Rifleman]

You see, "Taxation Without Representation" was actually a ticket to a lower Tax Burden than what you have now - with the added benefit of having the leviers of said Burden resident Over There. Hah! Now what do you say of your little Revolution now, eh whot?

Y'know, I think he's implying that if George III and Cornwallis hadn't been such wankers that I'd be proud to still be a subject instead of a citizen.

But in all fairness, if it wasn't for my 1/8th Scots-Irish ancestry, I wouldn't be the Redneck Country Boy that I am today.

There's hope for you!

Back on topic. I'm interested in hearing what others think about having a single squad of long range Riflemen in a company weapons platoon and attaching them to rifle platoons for operations.

Edson's squad sharpshooters in the 1st Raider Battalion didn't become standardized throughout the Marine Corps. There must be a reason for that.