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Thread: Snipers Sniping & Countering them

  1. #21
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Default Reason for thread move

    Patton,

    I moved this here because it falls in better as a request for information. If you haven't visited there before, snipercountry.com has several pieces on the history of sniping through the years.

    For all response posts: Be careful of drifting into specific discussions of tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs), both friendly and enemy, that can compromise security for current ops.

  2. #22
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    Thanks - my mistake for putting it in the wrong spot. If folks are leery of posting things they can contact me at ppatton@nypd.org.

    Thanks,

    Pete

  3. #23
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    The guys over at the LASD put together a good presentation titled Covert Vehicle Sniper Platforms that looks in depth at a couple of domestic incidents, then compares them with TTPs observed in Iraq. However, its too big for e-mail - but it is available on the FPS portal. If you don't have access, you'll need to contact someone over at LASD.

  4. #24
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    On the BCKS COIN forum (AKO log-in required), there has been a brief unclass/FOUO discussion of Countersniper TTPs, with some POCs and an available download of the AWG Countersniper GTA.

  5. #25
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    Default Little known sniper

    Kind of vague about the details isn't it? Bert Waldron made 109 confirmed kills as a sniper in the Mekong Delta area.....in five months.

    WALDRON, ADELBERT F.
    (First Award)
    Sergeant, U.S. Army
    Company B, 3d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division
    Date of Action: January 16 - February 4, 1969
    Synopsis:
    The Distinguished Service Cross is presented to Adelbert F. Waldron, Sergeant, U.S. Army, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in the Republic of Vietnam, while serving with Company B, 3d Battalion, 60th Infantry, 9th Infantry Division. Sergeant Waldron distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous actions during the period 16 January 1969 to 4 February 1969. His extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.
    HQ US Army, Vietnam, General Orders No. 1068 (1969)
    Other Award: Distinguished Service Cross w/OLC (Vietnam)

    WALDRON, ADELBERT F.
    (Second Award)
    Sergeant, U.S. Army
    Company B, 3d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division
    Date of Action: February 5 - March 29, 1969
    Synopsis:
    The Distinguished Service Cross (First Oak Leaf Cluster) is presented to Adelbert F. Waldron, Sergeant, U.S. Army, for extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in the Republic of Vietnam, while serving with Company B, 3d Battalion, 60th Infantry, 9th Infantry Division. Sergeant Waldron distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous actions during the period 5 February 1969 to 29 March 1969. His extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.
    HQ US Army, Vietnam, General Orders No. 2904 (1969)
    Other Award: Distinguished Service Cross (Vietnam)

  6. #26
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    Waldron is mentioned in passing in the book Sharpening the Combat Edge: The Use of Analysis to Reinforce Military Judgment
    ...As an interesting war story, our most successful sniper was Sergeant Adelbert F. Waldron, III, who had 109 confirmed kills to his credit. One afternoon he was riding along the Mekong River on a Tango boat when an enemy sniper on shore pecked away at the boat. While everyone else on board strained to find the antagonist, who was firing from the shoreline over 900 meters away, Sergeant Waldron took up his sniper rifle and picked off the Viet Cong out of the top of a coconut tree with one shot (this from a moving platform). Such was the capability of our best sniper. We had others, too, with his matchless vision and expert marksmanship. Sergeant Waldron earned two Distinguished Service Crosses for his outstanding skill and bravery...

  7. #27
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    The Jamestown Foundation's Terrorism Focus, 14 Feb 07:

    Baghdad Sniper Gains Legendary Status
    ....sniper attacks have encouraged jihadis to train and participate in the insurgency. The new terrorism drive is obvious from jihadi forum postings on the subject, such as the posting entitled "How to Become a Sniper" (http://harp.jconserv.net, December 22, 2006).

    In "How to Become a Sniper," jihadi forum contributors discuss the importance of sniper attacks, camouflage, casing the target, cover and concealment techniques, target approach and proper breathing while executing the shot. The training also covers different sniper positions, rifle support methods and rifle tripods. One interesting point in the training that correlates with the sniper video is the instructions to work in groups in target reconnaissance. Close scrutiny of the videos reveals that some attacks are videotaped by a separate camera and not by the rifle mounted lens....

  8. #28
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    www.stratfor.com has written following story, but I'm still wondering what are they doing with those rifles in urban environment (at least 2 man for transportation or mobile platform, huge shot signature etc). I do understand Al Qaeda who got Barrets for Afganistan mountainous terrain. In Iraqi hostile environment (Coalition's ROE, firepower etc) those .50 would have even shorter tactical life span that IRA's Barrets. This kind of Iranian sponsoring reminds what Soviet did for Palestinians, teaching unappropriate tactics.

    Iraq: Ominous Signs of a Looming Sniper Threat
    Feb 14, 2007

    Summary

    In a series of raids across Baghdad, U.S. and Iraqi forces seized more than 100 Austrian-manufactured sniper rifles in a 24-hour period Feb. 12-13. The .50-caliber weapons, which were legally exported to Iran in 2006, represent a grave danger to coalition troops......

    My additions.

    Here is photo about IRA's position from "Bandit Country."
    http://www.image-upload.net/files/2451/IRA.jpg

    Here is photo about Washington sniper.
    http://www.image-upload.net/files/2451/POSITS%7E1.JPG
    Last edited by Jedburgh; 02-16-2007 at 06:49 PM. Reason: Copyright issues.

  9. #29
    Council Member wierdbeard's Avatar
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    Default Iranian rifles

    If there were only a particluar number of .50 cal rifles purchased, wouldn't it be a rational reason to expect that wherever the rifles orginated within Iran, (I would surmise that its either VEVAK or Qods) they are supporting the operation with training for the snipers, if so how would the trainees be chosen, how long and where is the training taking place. at what rate are they producing snipers? From a logistics point of view it would be easier to have the rifles already in country than to have the sniper smuggle it themselves.

  10. #30
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    Jedburgh, before I posted to your PM i didn't Googel. Here is full story.

    http://worlddefensereview.com/Stratf...ellbrief.shtml

  11. #31
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    A little more about the little known Bert Waldron, pieced together from different sources:

    The 9th Division started training snipers in December of 1968. The division started to withdraw from Vietnam in the summer of 1969. That means Waldron made his 109 confirmed kills in about six months. Michael Lee Lanning says in "Inside the Crosshairs" that Waldron made 92 confirmed kills in the first five months of 9th Division sniper employment.

    Waldron made 9 of his kills in one night from the same hide site. He was shooting a suppressed M-14 with a starlight scope at ranges averaging 400 meters, according to a 9th Divison after action report quoted in "Stalk and Kill" by Adrian Gilbert.

    Some sources credit Waldron with 113 confirmed kills. This appears to stem from an offhand quote from the sometimes famous, more often infamous, late Colonel Mitchell WerBell. Waldron was Werbell's marksmanship instructor at the SIONICS mercenary training camp in Georgia in the 1970s. The story goes that WerBell knew that Waldron had something over 100 confirmed kills but not the exact number. Werbell pulled 113 off the top of his head to sound good during an interview and that number is still quoted in some sources. 109 is the number seen in 9th Infantry Divison after action reports.

    There was a barracks rumor floating around Ft. Bragg in the 1980s that said Waldron was doing some time on a Federal firearms charge. If he was, one has to wonder if it had something to do with his employment with WerBell, who was frequently being investigated for one thng or another. Unconfirmed rumor, but given Waldron's association with WerBell it doesn't sound improbable. If true, this may explain why he never became well known or wrote a book.

    I got an email from one source that knew a little about Waldron. The source said Waldron was pretty much estranged from most people when he died. Perhaps bitterness from the way things turned out? Again, unconfirmed, but not improbable if the prison time is true.

    Adelbert F. Waldron III is buried in the Riverside Cemetery in Riverside, California. The listed dates are: B. March 14, 1933 - D. October 18, 1995. That means Waldron was 36 years old during the peak of his combat effectiveness in early 1969.

    He was a superb rifleman correctly employed in a target rich environment.
    Last edited by Rifleman; 03-04-2007 at 10:06 PM.

  12. #32
    Council Member Ender's Avatar
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    Default Juba

    Narrated by a man described as the brigade "commander" and subtitled in English, it claims the marksmen use a training manual written by a retired U.S. Army Special Forces officer.
    Here is the subtitled video of the brigade commander who interestingly enough, purports to be "Juba." (A thread of Jedburgh's also mentions him above) http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e536c3bebc&p=1 Juba has been on the net posting his attacks for at least six months that I know of, so he at least is not new. I must admit his productions have gotten snazzier. What is interesting is that if he is in fact Juba and the commander of this "brigade" (it is difficult to determine whether he is referring to himself in the third person or not) he has been promoted relatively recently because when I first heard about him even the people (non Westerners) posting his videos didn't even know who he was.

    My gut tells me after watching him, studying his "methods" and reading about the D.C. style tactics used in Iraq, that this guy happened to come across the book, had some success with it and is now spreading the good word. I was given Plaster's book 14 years ago and I can not imagine a trained sniper cadre in the world that wouldn't have access to their own user friendly manuals. That they are using ours suggests to me that they are late to the game and are once again evolving their tactics in response to the ass kicking they are receiving. They may be adapting but they can't come close to how fast we adapt to them. I am not a school trained sniper and would be very interested to hear what one would say after watching this dude but my professional evaluation of the methods he uses is that he is not nearly as trained as he would have us believe. It does not take an inordinate amount of skill to implement the D.C. sniper method and while this is scary because anyone can do it, it should also be reassuring. If there were 30+ attacks in Baghdad from trained snipers there would also be 30+ fatalities and not just 8.

    Not trying to minimize or trivialize the subject, only highlight a possible hype/threat disparity.
    Last edited by Ender; 04-04-2007 at 01:00 AM.

  13. #33
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    From the Apr 07 Guns & Ammo: Insurgent Sniping in Iraq
    ...As Americans, we have our own opinions on what constitutes both a sniper and sniping. Our Western view demands that a real sniper be school trained in the classical sense. Equipped with a heavy-barreled, bolt-action precision rifle topped with a high-magnification optic, he has the ability to reach 1,000 yards or more. He is trained to estimate distances, read wind/mirage and drills hitting targets far beyond the range of an ordinary rifleman. In addition, his stealth and fieldcraft skills are carefully honed to the point that, properly “ghillied up,” he can move virtually unseen. The end result is a warrior with the ability to spot and engage targets at astonishing distances while remaining undetected. In the Western mind, the longer the successful shot, the more impressive the sniper.

    While there is nothing wrong with this now-traditional Western view, in reality it is just one take on sniping. Keep in mind, the nuts and bolts of sniping is to merely eliminate key targets and/or demoralize and drive fear into the enemy through the use of a rifle. While sniping equipment has changed drastically over the years, the art itself is the same as it was 100 years ago. Its crux is to locate a target without being seen, eliminate it with a single well-placed shot that seems to come from nowhere, then disappear, leaving a frustrated enemy behind who does not know where/when you will strike next. The insurgents in Iraq, despite their deficiencies in equipment and training, have learned to do just that....

  14. #34
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    If insurgents don't have credit card to shop in Amazon, they can download counter-sniper chapter from Plaster's website.

    http://www.ultimatesniper.com/Docs/U...ter_20_US2.pdf

  15. #35
    Small Wars Journal SWJED's Avatar
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    Default Super Snipers to Target Terrorists

    14 April Daily Mail - The Super Snipers Who Will Target Terrorists ... From Three-quarters of a Mile by Christopher Leake and with a Hat Tip to Council member Merv Benson at his Prairie Pundit blog.

    The [British] Army is creating a new breed of super-sniper to take on insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan who use innocent women and children for cover.

    Until recently the Army's regiments had an average of just four snipers each and they were taught the basics of their role within their units.

    But now senior officers have decided to double the number of snipers - and to train them to a far higher standard on an intensive eight-week course at the Army's weapons training ground in Brecon, Mid Wales, where they will learn the kind of advanced skills previously limited to units such as the SAS.

    To complete their transformation into super-snipers, they will be trained to use a devastating new weapon - the British-made L115A1 rifle which can bring down an enemy target nearly three-quarters of a mile away with remarkable accuracy.

    Army insiders say its great advantage is that snipers will be able to kill with a single shot, avoiding the "collateral damage" of hitting innocent bystanders.

    Although the L115A1 will not officially be used by regular soldiers until next year, Army sources admitted last night that a small number would probably be trialled in the two war zones in the next few months...

  16. #36
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    Default I&a

    Innovate and advance - sounds like a winning program to me

  17. #37
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    Default I may end up ruffling some feathers when I say

    we (both Americans and Canadians) have some excellent .338 rounds and rifles that bring down grizzlies at 500 yards.

    I have nothing against our forces getting the best available, however...
    Exactly why do we need to buy a weapon system from another country ?

    The 338 Ultra, A poor man's Lapua: Check out any hunting magazine or American Rifleman's latest. The Lapua requires lots of modification to work in a Remington action and that means high cost. The Ultra round is a factory available chambering and requires no modification to the Remington. These can be built for almost the same cost as a .308 sniper rifle.

    The British Army says:
    http://home.swipnet.se/longrange/british_army_338.htm

    “It had to convince us that it had a 70 per cent chance of hitting the frontal aspect of a Land Rover at 1,500m – that’s seven out of ten shots on target – and it will. And there’s enough energy in the round to do disabling damage at that range.”
    I have to admit, I have never shot a Land Rover at 1,500 meters

    Sorry, but smells of politics to me

  18. #38
    Council Member Culpeper's Avatar
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    I think some US Army dude was awarded a Silver Star for shooting some jackass with a RPG climbing a water tower at a range of over a half a mile using a .50 sniper rig during dusk hours. Half the jackass stayed up on the ladder and the other half fell to ground. Long range high caliber sniper systems have huge physcial and psychological impact. Unfortunately, these same types of weapons can also be made available to the other side on the open market. It's the type of round that makes the big difference here. The commercially available rounds don't make quite the same impact as the military version. I have a lot of respect for the .30 variety but the .50 is a monster with the right ammunition.

  19. #39
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    That video of the snipers using the Barret in Afghanistan was just amazing. I just found that again the other day.

  20. #40
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default Culpeper's .50 :)))

    We had a real good thread herein on sniper's weapons beginning with a Canadian Soldier breaking the current distance/kill record (1.5 miles!). Sadly, no footage after the TAC-50 dropped the insurgent inside of a window frame !

    Apparently, some do not like the relatively heavy .50's report, recoil and muzzle flash. We use frangible .50 rounds on suspect articles and IEDs, but nothing like a trusty 12-ga. watercanon round

    Perhaps we should go back to the days without recoilpads, and the ol' man's Winchester 45.70...talk about recoil and report

    Bismark, I'd love to see that video Link (s) Please ?

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