Is Public Will at odds with Public Sacrifice?

[goesh]

Is it my ethnocentrism or am I simply behind the times? I didn't see any .303s on that video! Very impressive ad, very creative - no wonder you Kanucks make such good allies. (you even have good hockey teams)

[Tom Odom]

Joe G's latest column:

COMMENTARY
Back Bush's war strategy? Then bring back the draft
By JOSEPH L. GALLOWAY
McClatchy Newspapers

Here's a question for those who still support President Bush's strategy to stretch out the Iraq War until after he's left office, and for those who think we should be prepared to continue our bloody occupation of Iraq for five or 10 more years:

Are you ready to support reinstating Selective Service - the draft - even if that means your sons and daughters or your grandchildren will have to put on the uniform and go hold the cities and towns of a nation in the middle of a civil war?

Until now, the burden and sacrifices of military service in Afghanistan and Iraq have been borne by volunteers - young men and women who in large part hail from small towns and counties of our nation.

[Stan]

By Eric Lichtblau
Published: December 23, 2006

This report, albeit a tad vintage sounds more likely the case.
Probably should give the 34 year old system a spin, see if she works

WASHINGTON: As the de facto media contact for the Selective Service System, Dick Flahavan is the Maytag repairman of government press people. With the military draft out of business since 1973, the Selective Service just doesn't get a lot of calls these days.

But by midday Friday, Flahavan's office had fielded dozens of inquiries, not just from reporters but from some anxious parents as well, all with some variation of the same urgent question: Are you reinstituting the draft?

The exercise planned for 2009 would run computerized models to assign random lottery picks by birthday and simulate the processes for notifying those selected and for lodging conscientious objector claims.

Watch out Marc, the 'Dodgers' are comin' (back again)

Since the start of the war in Iraq, some Democrats and Internet bloggers have been stirring up talk of a "secret plan" by the Bush administration to resume the draft, and the mere mention of the idea summons Vietnam-era images of birthday-generated draft lotteries and draft evaders fleeing to Canada.

[marct]

Watch out Marc, the 'Dodgers' are comin' (back again)

Oh, Damn! Come on, Stan! We don't need these guys again - we already have way too many US servicemen attempting to claim "refugee status" because they are being deployed to Iraq. Let's swing a deal - we'll grant hem refugee status and then send them to Estonia for you to command .

Marc

[marct]

Is it my ethnocentrism or am I simply behind the times? I didn't see any .303s on that video! Very impressive ad, very creative - no wonder you Kanucks make such good allies. (you even have good hockey teams)

Personally, I wish we still had the FN (my favorite was the FN-C3). One of the things I really like about the ad was how it tied "Liberal" values into serving in the Canadian Forces.

On the .303 issue, now, I personally, learned how to shoot with a .303 (okay, after graduating from popgun .22's). I like .303's, although I suspect that a .50 cal is probably better. Still and all, there's something about the range and stopping power that I really like. BTW, I learned how to shoot at summer camp when I was 9 - don't let the "kinder, gentler" propaganda influence you too much .

On hockey, let's agree to disagree - in advance . As a die hard Leafs fan who thinks he NHL has gone down the tubes since the recent (1972) expansion, let me just say that there is waaayyy tooooo much American influence in the game!!!!!

Marc

[RTK]

Oh, Damn! Come on, Stan! We don't need these guys again - we already have way too many US servicemen attempting to claim "refugee status" because they are being deployed to Iraq. Let's swing a deal - we'll grant hem refugee status and then send them to Estonia for you to command .

Marc

How about this: Grant them refugee status under the condition that they serve in the Canadian Army.

Then deploy their asses to Afghanistan.

[goesh]

(I hear you Marct on the .303 I dropped my first deer with one)

[Stan]

RTK, Good idea:

How about this: Grant them refugee status under the condition that they serve in the Canadian Army.

Then deploy their asses to Afghanistan.

EOD and MDD slots recently became available in Afghanistan

[marct]

Hi RTK,

How about this: Grant them refugee status under the condition that they serve in the Canadian Army.

Then deploy their asses to Afghanistan.

Hmmm? Our very own Foreign Legion! Since this is Canada, we would have to make sure that hey were put in a position where they could act n keeping with our national ideals. Hmmm, how about deploying them in a Peace Keeping / Community Building role in North Waziristan .

Marc

[RTK]

Hi RTK,



Hmmm? Our very own Foreign Legion! Since this is Canada, we would have to make sure that hey were put in a position where they could act n keeping with our national ideals. Hmmm, how about deploying them in a Peace Keeping / Community Building role in North Waziristan .

Marc

Give them good practical experience in Northwest Territories.

[marct]

Give them good practical experience in Northwest Territories.

Well, we have been having a little spat with the Norwegians......

Marc

[Merv Benson]

Marc,

Just don't send them anywhere someone might have to count on them. I certainly would not want them "covering my back" in my unit. You have enough to worry about in a firefight without piling on concerns about a guy bugging out.

[SWJED]

30 April LA Times commentary - What War? By Niall Ferguson.

It's a theme of nearly all the great post-Vietnam movies. In "Taxi Driver" and "The Deer Hunter," Robert De Niro plays a veteran who is dismayed, if not unhinged, by homecoming. From the mean streets of New York in the former to the Pennsylvania mining town in the latter, the folks back home just don't get it about the war.

I imagine that some American soldiers returning from tours of duty in Iraq might get an even stronger feeling of alienation if they were to visit, as I have in the last seven days, those quintessential American playgrounds, Las Vegas and Palm Beach. From the casinos of Nevada to the condos of Florida, the good times are rolling, regardless of events in the Middle East.

It's hard to believe, as you walk past the thronged roulette tables and inanely burbling slot machines of Vegas, that this is a country at war. As for that eye-catching billboard "For the Injured" on Interstate 95, I'm afraid it has nothing to do with the war wounded of Operation Iraqi Freedom. It's just another ambulance-chasing lawyer, brazenly advertising his readiness to sue someone if you trip on the sidewalk.

At least vets who came back in the 1970s found that home was pretty messed up too. By contrast, those returning home today must feel like latecomers to a gold rush...

[tequila]

Sounds like our good friend Niall needs to restiffen his upper lip. I doubt the grandees of the Victorian era that Dr. Ferguson so romanticizes stopped their Grand Tours or gambling expeditions because a few regiments of sepoys and low-country scum were slaughtered at Maiwand or taken prisoner in Baghdad --- much less when a few million wogs starved to death in Mysore or Madras. Remount your pith helmet, Dr. Ferguson!

[MaxL]

The Liberal camp, at least in it's US incarnation, is unlikely to embrace COIN unless it is "sold" to them as a moral imperative from a Liberal, ideological perspective. My wife, who describes herself as an old style, Yankee Democrat Liberal (and also says she would never have married me if she knew my political views beforehand ) has come around to the point where she views COIN ops, and the current surge, as such a moral imperative. It's been an interesting transformation on her part...

Nail on the head. If one wants to enlist Liberal support for 'foreign adventures,' one needs to take the liberal view of the US into account. Chomsky, while, ah, problematic, illustrates this view (if only in its most extreme form) quite clearly; America is an imperial power, like all imperial powers America acts in ways which benefit itself.

Which might mean it would be a good idea to acknowledge up front--honestly--all the ways in which America might benefit from a given course of action, and making the argument that, nonetheless, it'll help the locals more than it hurts them, so it's the right thing to do. If true, it shouldn't be that hard to get the liberals on board.

Now, how that might help/hurt our standing with locals, I'm not sure.

[marct]

Hi Max,

Nail on the head. If one wants to enlist Liberal support for 'foreign adventures,' one needs to take the liberal view of the US into account. Chomsky, while, ah, problematic, illustrates this view (if only in its most extreme form) quite clearly; America is an imperial power, like all imperial powers America acts in ways which benefit itself.

I'm glad you put 'foreign adventures' in quotes . I think that it is important for the US to be extremely careful in how it exercises its power. BTW, while I certainly do call the US an "imperial power" I tend to use it in the "real" meaning of the term "imperial" - i.e. "sphere of influence", rather than the monarchical overtones that got added on during the middle ages.

Which might mean it would be a good idea to acknowledge up front--honestly--all the ways in which America might benefit from a given course of action, and making the argument that, nonetheless, it'll help the locals more than it hurts them, so it's the right thing to do. If true, it shouldn't be that hard to get the liberals on board.

The use of moral imperatives as adjuncts and "grounds" for the exercise of imperial power are somewhat tricky. Britain used that strategy extensively in the 19th century, and the disjuncture between the moral strategy (unilinear evolution and the drive to "civilize" the world) and the political / military reality of WW I served as the base for the dissolution of the Empire in the 20th century. I've noted similar leit motifs in President Bush's speeches about Iraq, especially his simplistic "morality" equations, which I find very troubling. I think that a systematic comparison of the rhetoric and politics that led to the invasion of Afghanistan and that of Iraq show some basic differences that are worth examining.

Now, how that might help/hurt our standing with locals, I'm not sure.

As long as there is no major disjuncture between the rhetoric and the reality, it probably won't hurt. There is always a question of motives, and altruism is frequently considered to be BS.

Marc

[tequila]

An interesting article in the latest Military Review addressing this issue and arguing that democracies engaged in COIN should keep their military presence low in order to maintain public support, or at least disinterest, over the length of time necessary for COIN to succeed.

Discouraging Hearts and Minds: Democracies and Insurgencies - Maj. Erik Classen, Belgian Armed Forces

[Merv Benson]

An interesting article in the latest Military Review addressing this issue and arguing that democracies engaged in COIN should keep their military presence low in order to maintain public support, or at least disinterest, over the length of time necessary for COIN to succeed.

Discouraging Hearts and Minds: Democracies and Insurgencies - Maj. Erik Classen, Belgian Armed Forces

I haven't read the link, but I am curious whether they are favoring a small foot print strategy to maintain political support. If so, I believe Iraq may be an example of where their strategy did not maintain political support.

[tequila]

That is precisely what Maj. Classen is arguing. I think in his view the footprint in Iraqi is nowhere small enough for this to work - his model is more El Salvador and a strictly advisory capacity for COIN as opposed to the occupation in Iraq, which is currently consuming most of the Army and USMC's active duty combat forces.

Another example unmentioned by Classen (the article has some big flaws IMO, but makes an interesting argument) is KMAG from 1946-1950, which oversaw the creation of the ROK military and constabulary that successfully (and brutally) crushed the Communist insurgency in South Korea that occurred during that time. The best English-language reference for this time period is Allan R. Millett's A House Burning: The War for Korea 1945-1950. An online talk by Professor Millett is archived by the Pritzker Military Library here and is quite good, as is most stuff by Prof. Millett.

[Tom Odom]

Thus, the key to maintaining resolve and preventing the insurgent from discouraging the electorate is to ensure that the conflict loses media traction. In theory, this is possible because the great majority of the electorate cannot or will not handle more than a few political issues at a time. If the media considers other issues more important than the counterinsurgency, then the problem is solved: issues dominate public attention, the counterinsurgency disappears from the political agenda, the electorate slips into indifference, and the government can sustain its resolve indefinitely. Of course, this scenario runs counter to the usual government reaction when popular support for the conflict decreases which is to start a media campaign to promote the counterinsurgency.

did this guy write the blog-gag?

I cannot help but feel a sense of deja vu, given that this author is Belgian. This policy was exactly how King Leopold managed to establish the Congo as his own private money-making venture and portray it as a charitable "loss" until Western authors--notably Conrad--exposed it for what it was.

As for the limit on troops in El Salvador limiting news coverage on the war there, he is in my opinion sorely mistaken because it did nothing of the sort. The news media was all over that story and it stayed that way. Bill Meara was there; he could comment on this one.

Best

Tom