Think of all the late 20th century small wars/insurgencies and I'm sure you will find many are doing just that. I attended a course on insurgent warfare last year and one of the instructors was a former Algerian militant for years then later turned and helped the French.
Last edited by pcmfr; 04-17-2007 at 12:21 AM.
good insurgents die young - only old hippies burn out and mend their evil ways.
I think the trick is to get as many "current" insurgents to come work for our side. I have reason to believe that in both Afghanistan and Iraq, we are attempting and sometimes succeeding at doing just that.
Last edited by Jedburgh; 04-18-2007 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Added link.
Chieu Hoi ... Oh How I Wish
Originally Posted by 120mm
This is not a bad strategy, except that its being handled in sort of a clumsy way.
Its a common misperception that every insurgent is a Jihadi and will never surrender or stop his actions ... religious extremist insurgents comprise only 15-17% of the insurgency (AQI is just 2-5%) ... the Mujhideen Central Command (which is better translated as the Unified Mujahideen Command) are actually the Baathists FRLs ... they couldn't care less about Islam, even though they are Moslems who use the Rhetoric of the Islamists, they aren't fanatics - yet they account for 83-85% of the daily attacks.
In fact with the right amount of money the FRLs could be bought, but it will take huge concessions on the oil pipeline through to Syria and a ruthless crackdown on the Shiite Militias before that could even be brought to the table. Most Sunni AIFs just want a life and air conditioning for their kids ... with the right incentives they could be a force to rid us of AQI.
Just a thought.
A request was made for me to elaborate.
Heh, it's very amusing to observing how you americans think and tackle problems, i don't like to generalise all of you, but i think it's fair to say many of you have a capitalistic mentality, or atleast the ones in power. You think everything can be bought, everything has a price, people's lives, peoples dignity. You kill someones brother, mother, child, and you think that throwing money at the issue is going to fix it all. You assume that everyone is just an opportunist, who only acts only to further their own interests, because you assume everyone is like you.We would like to hear your perspective on the subject. For example, if you could provide your reasoning as to why or why not amnesty programs or subsidizing Sunni families would or would not have an impact upon the insurgency.
Well i'll tell you why your strategy won't work, since your asking. The people whome you fight don't think the same way as you do, they belive in things that you probably can't even comprehend, like honour. They do not accept bribery, with money or power, because neither of those things is what they are fighting for. Try to understand, even if you where NOT knocking down peoples doors, raping their sons and daughters and stealing their resources, even if your occupation was the most benovelent in history, there would still be resistance against you. People don't like to be meddled with, it's not your place not your right, to meddle in the country's affairs.
Don't worry about it, Every Iraqi who was willing to sell their souls, their nation, and their people for money and power is already collaborating with you. Wether he/she was a sunni or a shia, or a ba'athist, or simply a back stabbing thief. Every opportunistic dirt bag who was already corrupt on the inside before the war, is already on your side. Furthermore, contrary to what you implied with your question, there is a shia resistance just aswell as a sunni resistance, and sunni traitors as well as shia traitors. It doesn't matter what you are but who you are and there is good and dirt everywhere.
This was all quite elequently put by US consul Warren Parker during the fall of Saigon. "All these years I've been down there, doing a job of work for my country and for this country, and today all I can see is that we've succeeded in separating all the good people from the scum, and we got the scum." - As reported by John Pilger.
Your battle with the resistance is a battle to the end, they will remain steadfast. Money won't save you. They fight for their nations dignity and freedom in the real sense. To suggest you can put a price on that or on peoples lives, is an insult.
-Victory or Martyrdom.
Last edited by Thepartisan; 06-03-2007 at 05:41 PM.
At the risk of helping a troller.
I disagree, for example the Jews have done good work with bombers who they captured in studying how bombers think and act.Victory or Martyrdom is their motto, and they will be steadfast till the end.
And yet you think all Americans are ignorant people who want to throw money at any problem, have no honour and can not see others viewpoints!don't like to generalise all of you
I think you like making blanket statements about all Americans. I think you like it alot, it makes you feel better than them.
So you think no country should interfere with things going on inside anothers borders? Thats your thesis? That is something happens in one country no other countries should do anything?People don't like to be meddled with, it's not your place not your right, to meddle in the country's affairs.
This is very disrespectful to the Iraqi police and army people who have given their lives to try and help their country.Don't worry about it, Every Iraqi who was willing to sell their souls, their nation, and their people for money and power is already collaborating with you. Wether he/she was a sunni or a shia, or a ba'athist, or simply a back stabbing thief. Every opportunistic dirt bag who was already corrupt on the inside before the war, is already on your side. Furthermore, contrary to what you implied with your question, there is a shia resistance just aswell as a sunni resistance, and sunni traitors as well as shia traitors. It doesn't matter what you are but who you are and there is good and dirt everywhere.
You post seems little more than poorly thoughtout knee jerk anti-Americanism.
First, let me say that, like it or not, Thepartisan's post voices a viewpoint in a coherent way without a deliberate attack. There is a difference between an inflammatory post and a reasonable post recapping a position that inflames you.
Try to keep that in mind in any responses.
Second, on some substance, I'll say that I think that widely misses the mark on capitalism as I see it.
In the immortal words of Gordon Gecko, greed is good. And a capitalistic system puts some controls on our exploitation of power and wealth, while still allowing the spoils of success to accrue to the victors in the war of business. Without capitalism, we get a bunch of lazy communists with no reason to do things any better.
Granted, with our US capitalism, we have got a lot of those controls less than right, and we sure as hell don't have the distribution of wealth down. It is vastly imperfect. But still way ahead of whatever is in second place.
With regard to throwing money at death, let me say that is highly unpalatable for Americans. It is also a lot harder to find an American cop to bribe than it is in a lot of the world (but still not nearly hard enough). Your take on underlying American culture is wrong, confused by attempting to comprehend some superficial American acts (which are themselves being done in a cultural jujitsu sense, infinite loop inbound here) through your own cultual lens, which is about as cloudy as mine.
With the greatest respect:
This is true, its called cultural relativism and as a theory it was first expounded by Giambattista Vico in around 1636AD, and later picked up by the German romantic anti rationalist movement led initially by Herder, that finally flowered into Fascism. (read Isiah Berlin on the subject) To paraphrase Berlin: "We cannot understand ancient Rome or Athens because we cannot hear the songs or smell the incence".he people whome you fight don't think the same way as you do, they belive in things that you probably can't even comprehend, like honour.
In other words, what you are trying to say, I believe is that another culture cannot be understood by anyone outside that culture because they don't have the same concepts, myths, legends, stories, histories and values. The obvious implication appears to me to be "don't even try".
This is false. It is quite possible to immerse yourself in another culture and obtain an understanding of it, by reading their same myths and legends and absorbing their culture and values. People have been doing it for years.
The alternative would mean that there can be no understanding of cultures at all. For example, some hold that the Spartans were noble, proud and honourable warriors to be emulated if possible. The reality is that any study will show you they were also infanticides, slave owners, mean, brutal, racist, and corrupt. Clearly, if you want to study ancient Sparta, you must understand Thermopylae in the context of the society.
It is quite possible to learn about Iraq and its tribes and use that information.
With the greatest respect, about $40 billion in pallets of $100 bills is unaccounted for in Iraq. Go figure.They do not accept bribery, with money or power, because neither of those things is what they are fighting for.
True, the question then is why do we try?People don't like to be meddled with, it's not your place not your right, to meddle in the country's affairs.
Well I have met the resistance. I have fought them, talked to them in captivity and inadvertently knew a few on the street ... I have been immersed in Islamic culture for 26 years and Iraq's for the last four. I will tell you something that will surprise many people ... these are men. There is no difference between the insurgent and us ... I am leaving AQI out of this equation because they are not the resistance. The Iraqis we are fighting are men with families, dreams aspirations, hopes and dispairs. We completely forget and ignore that. They love their country and the dreams for the future ... but nothing, and I mean nothing, motivates them as much as their love for their children. This war can come down to giving them a chance to have that future, not a cheap flat in Damascus or Amman, in Iraq doing whatever makes them prosperous. Given hope they will eventually stop. For the Salafist Jihadis, thats another kettle of fish, they can be accommodated as well but the surpise will come when they are stopped by the other Iraqi resistance groups.
Well obviously you haven't been to Iraq or the rest of the world! Dir Balek (look out), Baksheesh (tip), lillShai (for tea), un petit bois (a little drink) is a way of life ... before, during and after the Baathists. Nothing gets done without ensuring their day will be a little brighter ... I have no problem with that so long as its minor. Now the Ministry of Defense stealing a Billion dollars intended for armor vehicles... that was just graft.They do not accept bribery, with money or power, because neither of those things is what they are fighting for.
Last edited by Abu Buckwheat; 06-04-2007 at 01:54 AM. Reason: adding data
Interestingly enough, the couple instances I know of, when our guys caused the defection of an insurgent, US forces simply exposed that his "cell leader" was criminal scum. The insurgent's "sense of honor" led him to make a change.
In another case, it was a pair of sunglasses and a uniform.
I lack the cultural background to fully interpret the results, but I'm just calling them like I see 'em.
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