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Thread: State & Local Intel in the GWOT

  1. #21
    Council Member sgmgrumpy's Avatar
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    We each just tend to our own backyards and address our own particular priorities of the moment (read administration) but beyond that nada.
    And that IS still occuring from what I have observed, herd of or read about. To many agencies from local to the federal level that have no clue as to Team Player rule. Sometimes it makes we wonder who picked the name :JTTF When are they going to get it?

    Here is another example of my that type mentality.

    FBI Wants Its Own Stasi
    Proposes building network of US informants
    In a move startlingly similar to that of the East German government during the Cold war, the FBI wants to recruit thousands of covert informants in the US and work with the CIA to train them in an effort to expand and adopt more aggressive intelligence capabilities.
    The next headline will be
    "CIA at odds with FBI to adapt intelligence cells in US"


    I can see that one being added to the ACLUs list.
    Last edited by sgmgrumpy; 08-03-2007 at 01:31 PM.

  2. #22
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    sgmgrumpy this sounds like a rehash of old COINTELPRO program of the 60's. This exploded in their face in the 70's during the Sen. Frank Church hearings on domestic spying.
    Last edited by Jedburgh; 08-03-2007 at 04:48 PM. Reason: Added link.

  3. #23
    Council Member sgmgrumpy's Avatar
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    FYI


    IS-701 Multiagency Coordination System (MACS) - New
    IS-800.A National Response Plan (NRP), An Introduction - Revised
    IS-860 Introduction to the National Infrastructure Protection Plan (NIPP) - New


    Courses here are intended for emergency management personnel, fire service personnel, first responders, Department of Homeland Security personnel, and the general public.

    http://emilms.fema.gov/

  4. #24
    Registered User ntstlkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgmgrumpy View Post
    And that IS still occuring from what I have observed, herd of or read about. To many agencies from local to the federal level that have no clue as to Team Player rule. Sometimes it makes we wonder who picked the name :JTTF When are they going to get it? .
    Aye. Rest assured we continue to endeavor to remain our own worst enemies. One of the hardest things to get my head around, and remains although I've grown pretty cynical since, is this idea of "ownership" of a case/case information. It's institutionalized. Yeah, sure, when it comes to deployments, especially rw ones, the military can get as comptetative as organizations go. But, in that instance, it's about getting in on the action (and yes I realize funding is a big part of that too). But the endgame, so to speak, is putting the bad guys where they belong, in the ground.

    Law Enforcement works on an entirely different set of perspectives. The funding issue rules the nest, which only reinforces the "doesn't play well with others" mentality which they ALL share. Even within departments there is a reluctance to share case information at times.

    Again, I'm not saying the uniformed mindset is completely without it's problems, it's taken us along time to get "Joint" to where it is today, and there's always room for improvement. And while not every LE department is headed by a info sharing-averse director or head, but the fact remains, the concept/habit/institution of case "ownership" is a big minus whether in the criminal or terrorism fields.

    In the counter-narcotics game, which is my TF's bread and butter, we are getting eaten alive not just because the adversary, the traffickers/dealers/manufacturers/etc outnumber us by such a wide degree, but because we continue to plan/act incoherently. We don't organize to play together, we don't plan to play together (except in those "break glass only in emergencies" circumstances, even then they're only just that "plans"), and where the rubber hits the road, we don't actually play together all that well (being polite here).

    In the 70's, the big wigs up in TRADOC and so on recognized that we just couldn't plan on playing the attrition game if we had to fight the Pact rolling across the IGB and into the FRG. AirLand changed our way of thinking to a more aggressive and tactically flexible way of fighting. It also, little known, began the incorporation of "jointness" into our doctrine, plans, and operations. Deep Strike was every bit as important as the Close Battle, and the Commander absolutely HAD to coordinate attacks on follow-on enemy echelons with the AF.

    It was the only way then, and probably the only way now (another discussion lol).

    9/11 should have given the Law Enforcement community at large the same wake-up call. Guess they never answered the phone on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgmgrumpy View Post
    The next headline will be
    "CIA at odds with FBI to adapt intelligence cells in US"

    I can see that one being added to the ACLUs list.
    Yeah, I hear ya SGM lol.
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  5. #25
    Council Member sgmgrumpy's Avatar
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    Default States Feel Left Out Of Disaster Planning

    Well it's not the headline we expected, but it is similar.
    The ole Us and Them concept

    States Feel Left Out Of Disaster Planning

    A decision by the Bush administration to rewrite in secret the nation's emergency response blueprint has angered state and local emergency officials, who worry that Washington is repeating a series of mistakes that contributed to its bungled response to Hurricane Katrina nearly two years ago.

    State and local officials in charge of responding to disasters say that their input in shaping the National Response Plan was ignored in recent months by senior White House and Department of Homeland Security officials, despite calls by congressional investigators for a shared overhaul of disaster planning in the United States.

  6. #26
    Registered User ntstlkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgmgrumpy View Post
    Well it's not the headline we expected, but it is similar.
    The ole Us and Them concept

    States Feel Left Out Of Disaster Planning
    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    sgmgrumpy,this sounds just like Iraqi government planning session
    Too right.

    Here's an example.

    A few monthes into the the initial phase of cobbling together DHS I had the dubious honor of being drafted to do a rotation up at Nebraska Ave (the Ops Center) as the Customs Rep. Practically all the federal LE agencies were represented, as well as DoD and each of the services. I was immediately struck by the fact that our primary work area was clearly seperated into the two camps. Military on the one hand, and Law Enforcement on the other. In literary terms I think this is referred to as "foreshadowing". The attitude in those days went the same way. The LE mindset was to guard information, and in the case of investigative info, find any way to make sure it wasn't released. Part of this was/is because of the institutionalized "case ownership" mentality, partly because of real legal requirements to not compromise ongoing investigations.

    Or as one INS rep told me "Don't they get that you can't just give this information out?" when he turned down a request for information for the upteenth time. He was right, and wrong too. The military requests (which, now that I think of it, a majority of info requests did seem to come from the military and not the other way around) were driven by operational needs. Yes, depending on the individual rep, there was give and take from one side to the other, but nowhere near what it should have been, much less given we were still so close in time to the traumatic events that forced the OP Center to be put together in the first place. There was little desire or initiative exercised to find ways of sharing investigative information without compromising a case.

    In addition, the Reps from LE were just that, Reps and no more. They weren't given any authority (legal or otherwise) to release information without authorization from their respective HQs (an obviously tedious and time consuming affair). I think this was done purposely. As well as knowing their innate reluctance to release case info, the LE agencies counted on this to ensure that the guys at the OC wouldn't be tempted to give away the farm while in the process of "cooperating". But the consequences were a divided "team" and an abject unwillingness to share pertinent information in a timely manner. Again, the whole reason why we were there in the first place.

    Operational needs on the one hand, the mandate to protect investigative information on the other.
    Last edited by ntstlkr; 08-10-2007 at 05:57 PM.
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  7. #27
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Nightstalker, that is so true about LE. I was told way back when if you are the Case Agent your job is to get information not give it. I have had friends pull the silent treatment on me when they became the Case Agent but yet they wanted info from me to solve "their" case.

  8. #28
    Registered User ntstlkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    Nightstalker, that is so true about LE. I was told way back when if you are the Case Agent your job is to get information not give it. I have had friends pull the silent treatment on me when they became the Case Agent but yet they wanted info from me to solve "their" case.
    Yeah well you know that's nothing when you start doing case hour reporting. Relatively "simple" things like reporting the number of hours spent supporting which cases can easily be used to justify an increase in funds going to a department or section. The rule then is to watch your back.

    But aye. Fusion Centers (just a fancy name for Ops Center, which is itself another fancy name for TOC/BICC, etc etc.....ad nauseum) will have to find a way to get past this at the state and regional level as much s the federal. Whether it's the Department of Homeland Security vs the Department of Justice or Metro Nashville PD vs the Nashville Sheriffs Department vs the Nashville Fire Department. You're asking organizations and agencies to go against institutional inertia on the one hand and to act against "perceived" self interest on the other.

    Yes, the fact that the long term self interest (of the organization much less the society) may be entirely irrelevant to this thought process and poses a real danger as real as any terrorist cell is as maddening as it is perplexing but there it is.
    Last edited by ntstlkr; 08-10-2007 at 08:39 PM.
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  9. #29
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    I just sat through a discussion of fusion centers and a utter lack of analysts. At the state level I heard a lot of grumbling that the FBI says analysis is done "THIS" way, and the CIA says it is done "THIS" way, and the states looking for training and standards are left going... Railroad tracks never meet except in the distance and that is an illusion. Interesting stuff coming out of DHS with no dog in the hunt they are creating standardized analyst training.
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    Here is a good article about the DSH Intelligence Fusion Centers, which the FBI is actively involved in. i know in some states the FBI office physically houses the fusion center and it is principally staffed by the FBI.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...123000238.html

    i think this is where a lot of good intelligence comes from.

  11. #31
    Council Member Erick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by relative autonomy View Post
    i think this is where a lot of good intelligence comes from.
    It may be disseminated from these, the RTTACs, and others. However, good intel comes from the guys & gals out on the ground, talking to the people. That applies a lot in a whole bunch of places.

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    Default Should Fusion Centers Formally Adopt an All-Hazards Approach?

    You've probably seen the recent NY Times article about the lack of terrorism focus by Fusion Centers. I think that's taking far too narrow a view at how these centers should be doing their work, or even what the scope of that work should be.

    The CRS report on Fusion Centers issued this past summer suggests that a broad, all-hazards approach may be best. This seems like a no-brainer to me. What, do you imagine, are the disadvantages to a broader focus that encompasses fighting terrorism and crime?

  13. #33
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    With the new National Response Framework they are going to have to adopt it. The days of terrorism only being a mission is gone. (sorry for the drive by but there are some interesting things in the NRF).
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    With the new National Response Framework they are going to have to adopt it. The days of terrorism only being a mission is gone. (sorry for the drive by but there are some interesting things in the NRF).
    Is the NRF going back for revisions after the public draft was so ill-received?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffC View Post
    What, do you imagine, are the disadvantages to a broader focus that encompasses fighting terrorism and crime?
    None. It is how it should be and how it was really meant to be. The concept of NCIC (National Crime Information Center) which was the first attempt to computerize and share all information across state lines could have been upgraded and expanded for a lot less money. It is like COIN the best stuff is the old stuff. But if you call it new you get better funding. IMHO

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffC
    You've probably seen the recent NY Times article about the lack of terrorism focus by Fusion Centers. I think that's taking far too narrow a view at how these centers should be doing their work, or even what the scope of that work should be.
    That article spun the GAO report in manner consciously chosen to grab readers for the paper. That's what they do. That's also why I tend to ignore news articles about such reports and actually read the damn thing myself.

    Federal Efforts Are Helping to Alleviate Some Challenges Encountered by State and Local Information Fusion Centers
    Why GAO Did This Study

    In general, a fusion center is a collaborative effort to detect, prevent, investigate, and respond to criminal and terrorist activity. Recognizing that fusion centers are a mechanism for information sharing, the federal government—including the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the Department of Justice (DOJ), and the Program Manager for the Information Sharing Environment (PM-ISE), which has primary responsibility for governmentwide information sharing and is located in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence—is taking steps to partner with fusion centers.

    In response to your request, GAO examined (1) the status and characteristics of fusion centers and (2) to what extent federal efforts help alleviate challenges the centers identified. GAO reviewed center-related documents and conducted interviews with officials from DHS, DOJ, and the PM-ISE, and conducted semistructured interviews with 58 state and local fusion centers. The results are not generalizable to the universe of fusion centers. Data are not available on the total number of local fusion centers.

  17. #37
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffC View Post
    Is the NRF going back for revisions after the public draft was so ill-received?
    My understanding is that they have already started the revisions, but it is really fait acompli. I was kind of disheartened at the lack of detail. I'm worried to that the NRF and NIMS don't really match up so you have a incident command system that doesn't meet up with the strategic coordination system. My understanding is that the military doesn't do joint coordination any better either and yet they are held up as the great model. There is a lot of distance between bullets and boots and the Fusion centers have never done the firefighters that much good. The can but they haven't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    sgmgrumpy this sounds like a rehash of old COINTELPRO program of the 60's. This exploded in their face in the 70's during the Sen. Frank Church hearings on domestic spying.
    The ACLU has siezed on this aspect - among other issues - in a recent paper attacking Fusion Centers:

    What's Wrong with Fusion Centers?
    The Problems With Fusion Centers
    I. Ambiguous lines of authority allow for “policy shopping.”
    II. Private sector participation in fusion centers risks privacy and security.
    III. Military participation in fusion centers violates fundamental tenets of liberty.
    IV. Data fusion = Data mining, which is bad for privacy and bad for security.
    V. Excessive secrecy undermines the mission of fusion centers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedburgh View Post
    The ACLU has siezed on this aspect - among other issues - in a recent paper attacking Fusion Centers:

    What's Wrong with Fusion Centers?
    Not a very impressive paper. I don't think the authors have much of a grip on the technology hurdles that these centers still have to overcome, and their frequent use of generalizations "data mining is bad" is almost comical.

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    NDIC, Jun 07: Improving the Law-Enforcement-Intelligence Community Relationship
    ....Much has been said about Law Enforcement not “getting” intelligence and about the Intelligence Community not “getting” law enforcement operations. Those of us who have had the privilege of serving in both communities know from experience that neither assertion is true and have urged a thoughtful analysis of facts to tamp down the emotion that surrounds this debate. This work succeeds in moving us beyond surface judgments and emotions, exploring law enforcement intelligence tools and techniques in some depth and pointing to their utility in fi ghting and prevailing over today’s adversaries. Just as importantly, it points to extant Intelligence Community practices that if applied broadly will help Law Enforcement make the transition from prosecution to prevention.....
    CONTENTS

    Best Practices in Law Enforcement and the Intelligence Community

    Developments in Law Enforcement Intelligence Analysis

    Unmasking Networks: Drug Enforcement Administration Tradecraft for the Intelligence Community

    Improving Tactical Military Intelligence with Anti-Gang Techniques

    “Home-Grown” Islamic Extremists in U.S. Prisons

    Predictive Intelligence: What the Drug Enforcement Administration Can Glean From the Intelligence Community

    Obstacles to Integration

    British Military Intelligence-Law Enforcement Integration in the Irish War of Independence, 1919-1921

    The Wall Between National Security and Law Enforcement

    Problems and Progress in Information Sharing

    Addressing the Difficulties

    Perceptions of Law Enforcement-Intelligence Community Information Sharing

    Challenges and Opportunities of Intelligence Community Membership

    Intelligence Fusion in the Field: Translating National Strategy into Practice

    Semantic Web: Technology for Integration

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