Wargaming Small Wars (merged thread)

[nichols]

The above info is pretty much what's out there now in the Fleet. An effort that we are working on is a FPS; VBS-2/VTK.

The VBS-2, out of the box with the LVC game engine links up with JSAF. The VTK portion of it was driven off of a Cognitive Task Analysis that we conducted with FAST. Two other efforts that will begin after we get the VTK is third party AI plug-ins, specifically Barry's work:

http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~barryg/sg.html

Following that we want to put the culture language ability that Tactical Language Training Systems delivers. This is all pretty much small scale, the big drive for sims is going to be what comes out of the Infantry Skills Simulation Work Group (ISSWG) which will determine where we go next in our quest for the Squad Immersive Training Environment (holodeck is the goal).

[ericmwalters]

NICHOLS shared some slides on M&S architectures/tools being worked on in Quantico...of course, I have questions--

How do I get copies of ITK software? Going to the TECOM website gave me no clues on how to do this. Am particularly interested in getting CCM, TACOPS, and MAGTF XXI, although if the other software is available, I'd love to get those as well. I've got a military mailing adress and/or get up to MCCDC from time to time...let me know how I can lay hands on these.

Do these games come with RFS already established so we can network them on NMCI NIPRNET? If not, I've got commercial networks/boxes in the office space I can leverage...it's just that I don't have a lot of them.

I do have some curriculum for TACOPS, by the way, to teach MCPP/IPB. Used to do that with version 2.1.2 way back when. The curriculum development was a cooperative effort between Center For Naval Analyses and Ground Intelligence Office Course instructors at the Navy-Marine Intelligence Training Center when we did this back in 1999/2000....

[Steve Blair]

I've used TACOPS as well, but I've been interested (with no luck) in getting my hands on CCM to use with the ROTC course that I'm developing dealing with joint campaign planning. I preferred the CC game engine to TACOPS, and it would work better for simulating some of the small unit action that we're bound to need (the actual map exercise runs on a battalion+ level).

[ericmwalters]

Don't know how many can follow the technical jargon in the slides that NICHOLS posted--I'm very familiar with some of the C4 systems and simulations, dimly aware of others, and completely clueless on the rest. But I did not sense anything that spoke to scenario/situation design when DVTE is fielded that pertains to the trickier aspects of COIN. Hearken back to SULLYGOARMY's comment in Feb 2007 when he said in this thread:

I'd like to see some Small Wars/COIN simulations similar to the close combat series of games...down at the squad and platoon level. Instead of artillery stirkes (unless in southern Baghdad... ), substitute a MEDCAP, or school building project or some other public works program. Teach guys how to do population control, issue ID cards and number houses to seperate the sheep from the wolves. And make it real time so the nintendo generation stays interested in it.

We've seen a bit of this in the Tactical Iraqi software package--not to this degree, of course. I'd hope to portray some difficult tactical decisions at this level that are the essence of the dilemmas COIN poses.

I know the commercial world isn't taking on any of this--at least right now. Is someone in the Army or Marine Corps doing this?

[nichols]

I know the commercial world isn't taking on any of this--at least right now. Is someone in the Army or Marine Corps doing this?

Sir, The Corps is doing it with the VBS-2/VTK. We have gotten to the point where the out of the box games don't cut it. The VTK has three levels of editors;

End User, out of the box where you change out OOB and limited psycological aspects of the AI.

Sim Lab/DVTE, Plug in third party AI to drive the opfor pull in NGA data.

TECOM/TRASYS, GUI editor to create a whole new game.

We had the Tactical Language people create an Arabic version of VBS-2 specifically for Div School to train coalition forces in Iraq. Ultimately the requirement is to get the culture engine capabilites into VBS so that we can do kinetic and non-kinetic rehearsals.

Additionally DARPA/SOCOM is working on the Real World simulation.

[ericmwalters]

STEVE BLAIR wrote:

I've used TACOPS as well, but I've been interested (with no luck) in getting my hands on CCM to use with the ROTC course that I'm developing dealing with joint campaign planning. I preferred the CC game engine to TACOPS, and it would work better for simulating some of the small unit action that we're bound to need (the actual map exercise runs on a battalion+ level).

You may have better results using Shrapnel Games/ProSim's ARMORED TASK FORCE/RAGING TIGER games to simulate battalion-level actions with the requisite level of detail. Not much for COIN, mind you, but I think these are the slickest games for their scales I've yet seen.

You can find ARMORED TASK FORCE here.

You can find RAGING TIGER here.

If you want a historical situation, there's also a game using the same engine on the Falklands War here.

Mind you, these don't have the fidelity that CLOSE COMBAT has, but then again you can't run a battalion very well in that application, either! The tactical aspects are far, far better than in TACOPS--the terrain is very realistic in comparison. The downside is that the learning curve is a long one--these games are graduate schools in tactics.

Of course, there's always POINT OF ATTACK 2, which you can get for free from the USAF, but it needs a lot of processing power to run...plus you may need their patches, depending....

See the HPS website here and write Dr. Barker at the e-mail for the USAF POC to get the game and patches for .mil users...

[nichols]

I've used TACOPS as well, but I've been interested (with no luck) in getting my hands on CCM

Steve, go to:

http://www.usmc-tds-msc.com/

Request access, it will eventually make it to my inbox and I'll pass to the webmaster to authorize.

They are delivering a new version of that TDS that takes it out of the blue on red type play. It now has civilians both good and bad, host nation forces, and end user trigger editors.

[Steve Blair]

Thanks, guys! I've used ATF before, but it doesn't quite meet the needs of this application. CCM certainly would, as what's needed is a lower-level tactical model. The new TDS sounds especially interesting. Of course, being with ROTC we're on a .edu and not .mil... I'll PM you with my info, Nichols, just before I put in the request. Thanks!

[ericmwalters]

Well, it looks like Joe Miranda and the boys are going to tackle simulating the COIN problem in a much bigger way. This new company, MODERN CONFLICT STUDIES GROUP (MCS Group) claims that:

Traditional defense paradigms have proven inadequate to analyze these threats because these paradigms emphasize force on force and attrition based modeling without adequate regard for terrorism, infowar, and insurgency.

Fourth Generation Warfare, with its emphasis on networking and advanced technologies, makes it difficult to predict when new conflicts will break out, and for conventional militaries to formulate counter-strategies. Current events in the Persian Gulf demonstrate how the Western Revolution in Military Affairs can be stymied by insurgents who fight using asymmetrical strategies and tactics. Simulations must address not only the period of conventional conflict in a war, but also the run-up prior to major military operations, and the post campaign occupation phase.

These challenges have not been adequately addressed by the existing simulations industry.

Until now.

Check out the new MODERN CONFLICT STUDIES GROUP website here. You can see some information about two games under development--both, interestingly enough--are board wargames. BATTLE FOR BAGHDAD is perhaps the most immediately interesting of the two and if the board is any indication, will be a hoot to play. However, ADVANCED MILLENIUM WARS looks very promising as a system, particularly in modeling how inadequate conventional military forces are in a COIN environment.

[jcustis]

Thanks, guys! I've used ATF before, but it doesn't quite meet the needs of this application. CCM certainly would, as what's needed is a lower-level tactical model. The new TDS sounds especially interesting. Of course, being with ROTC we're on a .edu and not .mil... I'll PM you with my info, Nichols, just before I put in the request. Thanks!

If by CCM you mean Close Combat Marine, I have that CD. I've been playing the CC series for some time now, and graduated to some of the mods that came out after Invasion Normandy.

You can have my copy of CCM if I can find it, but be forewarned, it is a terribly buggy release that shouldn't have been pushed out before it was play-tested better. when it works, it works well and models troop lift and airstrikes very well, but that may in fact be what causes the crashes.

ATF looks like a regeneration of a game that was out there many years ago. Can't put my finger on what it was titled, as I only downloaded the free version. PLs and OBJs look exactly the same though.

[ericmwalters]

JCUSTIS observed that:

ATF looks like a regeneration of a game that was out there many years ago. Can't put my finger on what it was titled, as I only downloaded the free version. PLs and OBJs look exactly the same though.

Bet it was BCT: COMMANDER, designed by the same Army officer and also offered by ProSim/Shrapnel games. BCT was the initial game which was refined over time into BCT: COMMANDER which was about as advanced as the initial engine design would allow. The designer then took the same design approach but bumped the scale down a notch--ATF is a much more flexible code...thus the other games in the series using that engine.

You can see BCT COMMANDER here.

If you are looking for the best tactical combat engine for that scale, ATF is hard to beat. To get a good idea of what play is like, check out the following AARs written by the designer, Pat Proctor:

"Synchronizing Fire and Maneuver: Death Valley Task Force Attack"

"Synchronizing Fire and Maneuver: Crash Hill Defense"

Again, these are straight up "battalion-bashing" contests...no subtleties of insurgency/counter-insurgency here!

[nichols]

If by CCM you mean Close Combat Marine, I have that CD. I've been playing the CC series for some time now, and graduated to some of the mods that came out after Invasion Normandy.

I'm guessing that you have 3.0 or 3.1. Atomic folded a couple of years ago, the mod community (Specifically CSO Simtek) took over the code. Version 4.0 is the NMCI tolerant version. 5.0 has the RAF 10 player capability. They are building a version of the CC-RAF for Sandhurst.

The AT & JTAC versions that are coming out have additional capabilites. There is separate AI for Blue, Host Nation, Opfor, Insurgent, and Civilian. Not high end AI but 180 dgrees from what the old CC - CCM series had. The picture was a screen capture of an ECP set up on the AT Beta drop.

While we were working with Atomic just about nothing was possible. The problem was that they never kept the same people between versions; CC 1, CC 2, CC 3 and so on. You may have noticed that CC 4 & 5 was probably easier to work with......the AI was turned off. This made its way into the CCM 3.0/3.1. We had no idea until CSO unscrewed it. The trend breaker that CCM was came from the Training Support Package that was installed on the computer when you loaded the game.

Ultimately I suggest you download the newest version from the TMSC, it's a different animal from what you had. Not a complete answer but much more capable.

[nichols]

it is a terribly buggy release that shouldn't have been pushed out before it was play-tested better.

This is why I'm asking for testers for the Tactical French

[Steve Blair]

If by CCM you mean Close Combat Marine, I have that CD. I've been playing the CC series for some time now, and graduated to some of the mods that came out after Invasion Normandy.

You can have my copy of CCM if I can find it, but be forewarned, it is a terribly buggy release that shouldn't have been pushed out before it was play-tested better. when it works, it works well and models troop lift and airstrikes very well, but that may in fact be what causes the crashes.

ATF looks like a regeneration of a game that was out there many years ago. Can't put my finger on what it was titled, as I only downloaded the free version. PLs and OBJs look exactly the same though.

There are patches out for CCM if memory serves, and yes that's what I was talking about. I'm a big fan of the CC series as well, although my favorite is still CCIII (some outstanding mods out for this one, including World War I and Vietnam).

[Silento]

I've used TACOPS as well, but I've been interested (with no luck) in getting my hands on CCM to use with the ROTC course that I'm developing dealing with joint campaign planning. I preferred the CC game engine to TACOPS, and it would work better for simulating some of the small unit action that we're bound to need (the actual map exercise runs on a battalion+ level).

Interesting.

We are using (partially) TACOPS currently in a SADR CITY MOUT MBX (http://www.opcon.org/SadrCity/), check the "MOUT in TACOPS" icon to the left.

This said, I am still recruiting (MBX just resumed after summer pause).

FWIW,

Silento

>> EDIT: Added players guide link:
http://www.opcon.org/SadrCity/BLUE/S...ayersGuide.pdf

[Rex Brynen]

We've started adding a series of reviews of insurgency/counterinsurgency/contemporary civil war boardgames at PaxSims. You'll find the first two here:

Liberia: Descent into Hell (2008)
Battle For Baghdad (2009)

While you can typically find many more reviews in places like BoardGameGeek, we focus on the potential usefulness of such games in education and professional training settings. Comments welcomed!

[AdamG]

I searched the thread to find any prior reference, but it's with a certain sense of irony that I find no mention of H.G. Wells' LITTLE WARS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Wars

Little Wars is a set of rules for playing with toy soldiers, written by H. G. Wells in 1913. Its full title is Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books.

See also
http://books.google.com/books?id=M9d...page&q&f=false

plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

[M-A Lagrange]

wargaming "tiny wars"

http://micromutants.canalblog.com/ta...nts/p10-0.html

Over simplistic? May be but at least the very first funy wargame I played.(And I love wargames boards, roll the dices, pushing the fig and watch the face of the adversary is much funier than talking to a geek in a mic behind a computer...)

[William F. Owen]

, we focus on the potential usefulness of such games in education and professional training settings. Comments welcomed!

What is the "peacemaking" thing that they speak of? Is this another word for Victory or Surrender?

[Rex Brynen]

What is the "peacemaking" thing that they speak of? Is this another word for Victory or Surrender?

Wilf, you would like the Liberia game we reviewed earlier on PaxSims--in it ECOMOG steals cars, feuds with the UN, keeps randomly shuffling force commanders, and has a "heavy firepower" option that is quite effective but costs you politically for what the rules term "embarrassing civilian casualties." That's quite apart for the rules for hostages, transvestites, lobbying Monrovia prostitutes, looting the national library, US evangelicals, naive Scandinavian aid workers, cannibalism, the Butt Naked brigade, etc. (the list goes on).

M-A, we've just done a review of a wargame of the Algerian war of independence, Ici, c'est la France. Great game (and historical simulation), although it takes a long time to play through the full campaign. We'll be doing a review of another Algerian wargame as soon as I can find time to play it.